Testing a Cree XHP50.2 J4 3A led

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JasonWW
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EasyB wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
One of my build plans was to take a single 26650 light (ultrafire F13) and run a pair of 26350 batteries from Banggood along with a direct drive 22mm driver from Mountain Electronics then put in the xhp50.2 that I tried out in my Convoy L6.

Now I know that will pull way too many amps. I can’t switch to amp limited batteries as they don’t exist. I don’t know of any non direct drive drivers that will work. Do you guys know of any?

I guess I’m gonna have to shelve the 50.2 and buy a new xhp70 to run in it. Does that sound right?

One thing to keep in mind with the 26350 cells is they can’t handle much more than 7A. See discharge curves at the bottom of the banggood listing. Banggood says they are out of stock, by the way.

These 26350 cells with an XHP50 V1 resulted in about 7A on a full charge. Using an emitter with a lower Vf would, in my opinion, probably be asking a bit too much of these cells.


They are in stock at FastTech.

I was thinking they would do way more than 7 amp, but I was thinking wrong. My memory is not always so good. Facepalm

I would like to limit the current to 4 or 5 amps which I think would be great in a small light. I just don’t know how to do it. Tired

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JasonWW
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Update, I was looking around at MTN and saw they had a linear driver for 6 volt use. This is a 7135 based driver.

Can someone give a summary of how the new low voltage emitters will respond to different driver types?

I think there is going to be a lot of confusion over this.

Direct drive = We know that they will draw way more amps than the regular xhp50 and xhp70. Not good at all unless you can limit the amps by using certain batteries or some other means.

Boost and Buck = It should draw the same currents. We may get improvements in efficiency, right?

Linear = It should draw the same currents. Anything else I’m not sure.

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JasonWW
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BTW, I tried my L6 with the 50.2 in it with some fully charged protected KeepPower 5200 26650. They are supposed to have a 10 amp limit. I expected them to trip the circuitry on turbo, but they didnt. Maybe they limit it to 10 amps?

Compared to fully charged Liitokala it’s not quite as bright and it’s not heating up as quick. In fact, the KP are getting a lot less current in all modes. Even slightly less current than the xhp70 with the KP batteries. Pretty interesting.

I can only compare amp draws as I don’t have a clamp meter to get exact numbers. I know where I can borrow one if anyone is interested. Idk, maybe I’m boring you guys. Lol

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JasonWW wrote:
One of my build plans was to take a single 26650 light (ultrafire F13) and run a pair of 26350 batteries from Banggood along with a direct drive 22mm driver from Mountain Electronics then put in the xhp50.2 that I tried out in my Convoy L6.

Now I know that will pull way too many amps. I can’t switch to amp limited batteries as they don’t exist. I don’t know of any non direct drive drivers that will work. Do you guys know of any?

I guess I’m gonna have to shelve the 50.2 and buy a new xhp70 to run in it. Does that sound right?

That 22mm driver will work, you can simply not use the highest mode until the battery voltage drops or have RMM set the max pwm in turbo to say ~200 to limit current. It depends on how much self control you have.

Jensen567
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So I was thinking about these new generation LEDs with FET drivers. If the MCU is monitoring cell voltage with an ADC for LVP, would it be possible to reprogram the MCU to use the value it reads to limit the PWM until cell voltage falls?

Ex. If it sees the cell voltage is at 8V, only command a maximum of 75% PWM or something, then when the cells are down at 7V let it get to 90%, etc.

If that does work it should let us take advantage of the efficiency increase of the new emitters as well, which linear does not.

JasonWW
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I was able to borrow a clamp meter to measure amps on my L6 with 50.2. I used a 10ga wire (too big?) on the tail end.

With the Liitokalas 8.9 amp.
With the KeepPowers 6.7 amp.

So no giant 12 amp loads, but that is a big difference just between batteries.

Compared to my xhp70 with same driver (rough estimates until I put the xhp70 back in)

Liitokala 8.0 amp
KeepPowers 6.4 amp

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hiker89
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Hey Jason,

I am planning on making a very similar build, with a mt-12 body (similar to F-13), a mt-g2, and a pair of 26350 batteries.
I’m planning on using this driver:
http://kaidomain.com/p/S025265.New-FX6-22mm-6V-8_4V-5A-2-Groups-of-3-to-...

Well that’s if it ever gets here, kaidoman took 21 days to ship it out.

Supposedly the driver is regulated with a high of 4500ma, I’ll see how it performs if it ever gets here.

In theory it should provide a nice regulated output for the new low vf emitters.

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hiker89 wrote:
Hey Jason,

I am planning on making a very similar build, with a mt-12 body (similar to F-13), a mt-g2, and a pair of 26350 batteries.
I’m planning on using this driver:
http://kaidomain.com/p/S025265.New-FX6-22mm-6V-8_4V-5A-2-Groups-of-3-to-...

Well that’s if it ever gets here, kaidoman took 21 days to ship it out.

Supposedly the driver is regulated with a high of 4500ma, I’ll see how it performs if it ever gets here.

In theory it should provide a nice regulated output for the new low vf emitters.


Thanks, I’ll make a note of it. Richard at MTN has me covered, though. This one.

6 amps is no slouch and I can remove 7135 chips if I want to bring it down some for better battery life and less heat build up. The best thing is I can have Guppydrv with off time memory and it’s user setable turbo timer. Thumbs Up

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Lowtech
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Lowtech wrote:
What would a change to a 50.2 from a 50 in a standard light like EA81 do? If anything.

Anyone have an idea?

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Lowtech wrote:
Lowtech wrote:
What would a change to a 50.2 from a 50 in a standard light like EA81 do? If anything.
Anyone have an idea?

Some speculation... They are binned the same, so same amps = same lumens. For the lumens output issue, depends on the driver, whether it's more amps limited or total power (watts) limited. The lower voltage of the 50.2 could be a good thing (more lumens output) or potentially bad thing - might have to burn off more voltage, so more heat. For the beam/tint, of course depends on what you are going from/to. The 50.2's don't have the same tendency to black hole the hot spot, but they do tend to yellow around the hot spot. Generally these new design LED's don't throw as well as the old ones - I know the XPL2's don't throw as well as the XPL's running at the same amps.

I'm not familiar with the EA81 or it's driver, so again, can't get specific.Those that know details on buck and boost drivers and worked with the 50.2 could probably answer better than me. Few trade-offs.

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Jensen567 wrote:
So I was thinking about these new generation LEDs with FET drivers. If the MCU is monitoring cell voltage with an ADC for LVP, would it be possible to reprogram the MCU to use the value it reads to limit the PWM until cell voltage falls?

Ex. If it sees the cell voltage is at 8V, only command a maximum of 75% PWM or something, then when the cells are down at 7V let it get to 90%, etc.

If that does work it should let us take advantage of the efficiency increase of the new emitters as well, which linear does not.

Yes, this is possible and something I have been wanting to get worked into Bistro from awhile now.

Although at this point I think we might end up skipping that rather crude method and going to something better unless someone gets it implemented before we make the move to the newer MCU’s.

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I just finished up a build this past weekend; an XHP50.2 J4 3A 5000k in a single 26650 tube, using a H1-A booster driver all from KD. It has a much nicer hotspot with no X in it vs the original 50; the corona tint shift is still there like the XPL2s I’ve built, but doesn’t seem as pronounced. Compared to an L2 with a MT-G2 direct driven I built, the max on this 50.2 light boosted to 6v seems around 2500 lumens, or about 50% power on my MT-G2 L2. I don’t have a light meter to check the lumens or candela though.

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JasonWW wrote:
All the guys running FET/DD drivers will be sad. I, myself, just ordered a Texas Avenger driver. Facepalm Oh well, I’ll just stick with the regular xhp70 for now.

What are all the hot-rodders gonna do when these new emitters make FET drivers a bad choice? Will they just avoid the new emitters or find new drivers that can push them, but not too far?

as texas Ace said the max. Setting of the driver can be limited in the firmware

instead DD a 80% or so cycle as max. setting can be set in the firmware on your TA driver

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JasonWW wrote:
Can someone give a summary of how the new low voltage emitters will respond to different driver types?

I think there is going to be a lot of confusion over this.


Can an expert do this please?
Thanks

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Lexel
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Low Vf on a DD driver with FET
higher current might blow the LED because it can get too much

on a linear driver like 7135
more heat on the driver less on the LED

on a Buck/Boost driver
less power consumption of the lioght, more runtime, less heat

DB Custom
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I got some LiitoKala 26650’s in yesterday and charged a pair up, tested them against the Basen’s in my DBC-05 Triple 50.2. The new cell gave more amperage at the tail end but less actual lumens. Weird when I see that. “Only” 10,833 lumens pulling 22.44A on the LiitoKala’s.

TomE is being an outstanding guy and sending me his pair of Sanyo NCR20700A to test in this light against the other contenders. It’ll be interesting to see how they compare…

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Lexel, is the below correct?

Lexel wrote:
Low Vf on a DD driver with FET
higher current might blow the LED because it can get too much

This can be controlled through carefully battery selection or programming the driver to run at a lower duty cycle on the highest level.
.
.
.
Lexel wrote:

on a linear driver like 7135
more heat on the driver less on the LED

Emitter will see same amp draw as a non-low Vf emitter.
.
.
.
Lexel wrote:

on a Buck/Boost driver
less power consumption of the light, more runtime, less heat

You get the same amp draw to the emitter, just with better efficiency.

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Lexel
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this is correct

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I want to ask if someone tested the nano MCPCBs from fasttech (https://www.fasttech.com/products/1609/10031707/7156107)? What i can find on the net if i search for nano MCPCB sounds promising (http://www.camnano.com/nanotherm-lc/?gclid=CMuynYPo2NMCFaoK0wodHMUOzw) but i do not know if the pcbs are from this supplier or have the same specs.

New WildTrail (former LuckySun) D80v2 Sale has Started http://budgetlightforum.com/node/66255

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Noctigon or SinkPAD XM-L mcpcbs, tried and true.

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The issue with LED lights is more about heat then anything. We are pretty much always heat limited and it appears that you would be as well in those lights.

They should handle 1.5A @ 6V fine (about 10W of power) fine from how those lights appear to be made.

You can drive these LED’s up to 10A+ if you can keep them cool and they will make ~5000 lumens each at that level if you do.

Although I am not sure what you mean by 100% efficiency. There is no such thing with LED’s. If you mean the max efficiency then you would only want to run them at like 100ma. efficiency drops as power goes up, see some of the tests we have posted on here for examples.

They will still be pretty efficient up until around ~6A though, so that is not a problem in your case, the issue is once again keeping the heat in check.

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That link is just advertising. There are no actual details or specs on it from which to derive any useful data.

It appears they use a DTP copper mcpcb which is great but also no different then any other copper DTP mcpcb on the market. Also they say 100% power, not efficiency. Big difference. 100% rated power for the xhp50 from cree is like 2.8A. There is no such thing as 100% efficiency as the lower you driver it, the more efficient it will be.

We run the xhp50 up to 8-10A in flashlights but that will quickly overheat in that light you have. 1.5A should be about right I figure.

You can run the LED in 12V mode but better off in 6V mode, that will ensure it stays in regulation and that you can use a cheap XM-L DTP copper star.

Are those lights you linked to already LED? It might be easier to either just swap the LED’s in them or mod the driver for a bit more power. Got a link to those lights?

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Hi stormrider88, Welcome to BLF!!

The BD "Mad Scientist" guy sure is funny. Talks like he discovered or invented copper for LED thermal management, something we've known and practiced for years. Also several of the major LED high performance flashlight manufacturers have been doing copper for years as well, like Fenix and ThruNite.

That BD site though says 100% power, not 100% efficiency. I think that's mis-leading what's goin on there.

It's a shame because he's dis'ing a lot of us out there, including Richard at MtnE who sells light bars here: http://www.mtnlitebar.com/, who I'm sure is using copper in the LED MCPCB's.

The "Thermal Gap Pad" thing is interesting though. Wonder how efficient that is...

Edit: Ooops cross posted with TA.

+1 with TA!

 

 

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stormrider88 wrote:
The basic data I cannot figure out is the manufacturer’s stuff (XHP50 > 6V 3A – 12V1.5A) I must be dumb, but I cannot figure out that Amp/V business… Facepalm

I can help with that last part.

The xhp50 and xhp70 are available in both 6 volt and 12 volt versions. Each emitter has 4 tiny dies which are 3V each.

So the 12 volt version have all 4 dies wired in series.

The 6 volt versions have the dies wired 2 in parallel and those 2 in series.

So 3 amps at 6 volts equals 18 watts.

1.5 amp at 12 volts also equals 18 watts.

Same power levels.

Ohms law states volts X amps = watts

Make sense?

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Tom E wrote:

Hi stormrider88, Welcome to BLF!!


The BD “Mad Scientist” guy sure is funny. Talks like he discovered or invented copper for LED thermal management, something we’ve known and practiced for years. Also several of the major LED high performance flashlight manufacturers have been doing copper for years as well, like Fenix and ThruNite.


That BD site though says 100% power, not 100% efficiency. I think that’s mis-leading what’s goin on there.


It’s a shame because he’s dis’ing a lot of us out there, including Richard at MtnE who sells light bars here: http://www.mtnlitebar.com/, who I’m sure is using copper in the LED MCPCB’s.


The “Thermal Gap Pad” thing is interesting though. Wonder how efficient that is…


Edit: Ooops cross posted with TA.


+1 with TA!


 


 

That thermal “gap pad” is nothing more then a silicone thermal pad, aka those thermal cubes you can get from fasttech, except in a sheet. It is used in place of thermal paste in assembly as it is a lot easier to apply. It doesn’t work quite as good as thermal paste but good enough for most things, particularly if the surfaces are not perfect.

I didn’t watch the video before, ditto all you said, it is all marketing and I would take a Mthlitebar over those anyday. At least he gives us actual data on voltage, power, lumens, throw ect. Plus I trust his lights to actually do what he says because he does give us all that data.

If a manufacture is too ashamed to show that data, then there must be a reason for it.

That said, the BD lights look better then a lot of the ebay junk light bars I see but I would not class them with the Mthlitebar.

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Yes the LED will draw current proportional to the output voltage you set that module at. Regarding those DC-DC modules though, I would recommend one with Constant Current capability. There are many varieties available.

The DC-DC modules themselves do make great drivers if you get a CC version. I use many different kinds in various projects of mine, so far they hold up pretty well as long as you don’t drive them too hard.

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stormrider88 wrote:

What I don’t get, is how the emitter draws current (amp)… If I use a 12V-XHP50 (rated at 1.5A@12V) through that module, it means that the emitter is going to draw 1.5A even dough the module is rated at 2A max? Is that correct?

No. Emitters will draw as much current as you give them. Hook any 12 volt led to a car battery and they will pop. Poof, burn up very fast. In order to control an leds output, you have to control the amperage you give it.

When Cree rates their leds they choose the current. They choose 1.5 amp for the 12 volt version even though it will stay alive at 4 to 5 amps (8 to 10 amps at the lower 6 volts in a flashlight).

So if that module can really supply a full 2 amps at 12 volts to the emitter, and the specs may not be fully accurate, then the 12 volt xhp50 will run at 2 amps.

To see what the lumen output is just look for a xhp50 output test by matchless or djozz. If they test at 6 volts, then look at the 4 amp numbers which is about 3,000 lumen.

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I would highly recommend just spending a bit more for a better pre-built light. I have not looked at off-road lights in a long time but I have to believe that someone makes a quality light for a reasonable price.

Or heck, get one of the 12” mtnlitebars and it will blow away anything else I have come across. Something like 30,000 lumens from a 12” bar IIRC. I plan to get one of these when I can afford it.

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I guess in theory you could use a flashlight driver that was a buck driver designed to give 2 amps to a 12 volt led. Or a buck driver that delivered 4 amps for a 6 volt led. Set the driver up for single mode use.

That’s not a big amp draw.

The guy that makes the mtn lite bar also runs MTN Electronics. You should send him an email and see if he has a flashlight driver that suits your needs.

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We are getting pretty far off topic here, but have you verified your motorcycle has the extra capacity for these lights? Bikes usually has very marginal charging systems and most don’t have any extra output for a constant 2 or 3 amp load. If you add too much load you’ll slowly discharge your battery when the lights are on. Some bikes, like goldwings, have extra capacity built in. What model bike are you working with?

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