Testing a Cree XHP50.2 J4 3A led

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JasonWW
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I’m trying to help. If you keep calling them heatsinks you’ll just be confusing people.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

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Anything that absorbs the heat out from the emitter is considered a heatsink. But as soon as the heat reached equilibrum, you need to get rid of them to keep the heat flowing (from the source to somewhere else). In order to get this, we create fins or any other means to increase the surface area so the heat will released to the air by radiation and convection. The higher the temp difference (delta temp) between the hottest point(s) and the cooler parts of the heatsink the greater the heat flow. The heatsinks designed like this is considered a heat exchanger as well. An MCPCB is a heatsink to some degree, and will perform so much better with finned heatsink. With let’s say, 1 watt of power a bare 20mm sinkpad is adequate to cool an LED. You can roughen the back of an MCPCB, adding fins, etc…and it will become a better heatsink too. But, at what power level?

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stormrider88 wrote:
In that case, single 12V emitters (xhp35/50) would have been a better choice… Facepalm

At the end, the triple will replace the front blinkers bulb ah ah…

I have a question regarding epoxy and polyester potting:

- just like in a flashlight, the heat-sink is enclosed inside an hermetic case, so, should I pot the heat-sink fan to make contact with the entire inner wall of the host?
There is no air circulation inside the light, so the less air cavity, the best it is?

!http://i.imgur.com/7kEnQFT.jpg!

Some automotive headlight still use this approach to keep everything simple. It works but not as efficient as the open air design. The idea is to increase the hot surface area point from 1mm^2 to hundreds or thousand times so even the low conductivity of air will still let adequate heat dissipation to the surroundings.


Older PETZL headlamps only use few connected vias in their water tight enclosed plastic casing too.

I’ve seen worse design in OEM design with NO fins and it works wonder. And it doesn’t even involved MCPCB , just plain old FR4 board with good calculation of copper spread. Check this:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/53834

As long as the LED kept within it’s designed operating temp, then it will work just fine. We in BLF usually takes everything towards maximum performance/efficiency while in the real world it’s not the most economical things to do.

- Clemence

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If you can keep the LED compartment perfectly sealed, filling the fin cavity with non conductive/corrosive liquid will transfer the heat better while keep everything neatly packed. Some also use fine silicone carbide abrasive sands.

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stormrider88 wrote:


The above makes no sense. Do you understand what fins on a heatsink are for?

It’s simply to increase the surface area which allows the air around it to pick up heat. If you fully enclose the heatsink in a box then the fins become useless. You’d be better off not even using the heatsink.

If this were a high powered flashlight that was used in short bursts I’d replace that heatsink with a big chunk of copper. This will allow for a longer turbo time.

Since this is a light that is going to run constantly, increasing turbo time is not important. I’d just let the heat flow through the gold part and heat up the outer housing. Then the outer housing will be exposed to moving air and pull the heat out. With enough surface area in the outer housing and enough moving air the lights temperature should reach an equilibrium within a safe range.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

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JasonWW wrote:
stormrider88 wrote:


The above makes no sense. Do you understand what fins on a heatsink are for?

It’s simply to increase the surface area which allows the air around it to pick up heat. If you fully enclose the heatsink in a box then the fins become useless. You’d be better off not even using the heatsink.

If this were a high powered flashlight that was used in short bursts I’d replace that heatsink with a big chunk of copper. This will allow for a longer turbo time.

Since this is a light that is going to run constantly, increasing turbo time is not important. I’d just let the heat flow through the gold part and heat up the outer housing. Then the outer housing will be exposed to moving air and pull the heat out. With enough surface area in the outer housing and enough moving air the lights temperature should reach an equilibrium within a safe range.

The above is not ideal, but do not say it makes no sense. If the heatsink is going to be enclosed it is still better for it to be finned. You might not be able to understand what is meant by his term heatsink but the rest of us can clearly see the large aluminum heatsink with extruded fins. Wink And stormrider is correct that filling the air gap with potting epoxy is still not ideal but better than air.

Stormrider: I pot flashlights with a mix of silicone(rtv) and silicon carbide lapping powder. It works well for flashlights but might not be economical for your application? Outherwise you can buy potting epoxy by the gallon for descent price.

Are you able to pot and seal the front of the enclosure and cut some vents or openings around the heatsink fins to let in some air? I think this would give the best performance but maybe a trade off with aesthetics?

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@lightrider: BTW, several years ago I tried filling a Pepsi aluminum can with #320 silicon carbide abrasives to cool 3 hard driven XPGs in the center (absurd art objects). Man…it’s heavy LOL
But the heat was indeed spread to the can’s surface fairly well. Got better result with damp SiC sands (better than water alone).

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clemence wrote:
@lightrider: BTW, several years ago I tried filling a Pepsi aluminum can with #320 silicon carbide abrasives to cool 3 hard driven XPGs in the center (absurd art objects). Man…it’s heavy LOL But the heat was indeed spread to the can’s surface fairly well. Got better result with damp SiC sands (better than water alone).

Haha! Ya, I guess it would be like a cement brick. A cool brick at least. Smile

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stormrider88 wrote:
_
The above makes no sense. Do you understand what fins on a heatsink are for?
_

In that case, could you help me:

Provide me a copper pill of the exact size of my host for the same price than an aluminum heat-sink that I can easely cut (cost RM3… +RM3 for the epoxy…)

3 Malaysian Ringgit = 0.7 usd…

So, does it make $en$e to you now? Could you send me a custom made copper heat-sink for less than 1 $ Wink

If the fins are entirely connected (embedded, to be exact) with the shell via any thermal putty, it will always be more efficient than just let an air cavity between the heat-sink and the carcass.

Don’t tell me that stagnant air is more efficient than aluminum…


I’m losing my patience and I don’t have time to give you a lesson in thermodynamics.

Basically, empty air or solid chunk of aluminum makes no difference in your application. Do the cheaper, leave it air. You will have the same performance.

I think you are confusing flashlight design with car mounted light design. They are not the same.

Sorry, no more help from me. Let someone else teach you. Your too resistant to learning.

Good luck on the project.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

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stormrider88 wrote:
__Are you able to pot and seal the front of the enclosure and cut some vents or openings around the heatsink fins to let in some air? __

Possible. I also thought about it. But yeah… There’s a matter of esthetic too ah ah…

TRiple XPG3’s Cube Comet ™

Facepalm

That’s not too bad. Haha:)
With the small power you are going to be using, you wouldn’t need to expose the entire heatsink. But any airflow will help significantly. I understand that this is what JasonWW is trying to say. But with this amount of power, i think you will be fine with potting if that is what you want to do.

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I’m not the one to ask something like that as 1) I do not like the XP-G3 emitter and 2) I don’t recall ever putting any light together that pulled such low amperage.

As far as your drawing goes, if you can’t put a heat sink in the opening that fills the opening then you’re falling short of optimization. Cut off the open air portion and leave the heat sink exposed, don’t pot anything. Just because something is cheaper does not make it better, most of the time it’s quite the opposite. If it’s not worth making right, it’s not worth making at all.

Dale

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Your goals is to give the maximum heat path to the outside of the light. If you have an empty cavity then your goal is to fill in that cavity with metal or worse case potting material / silicone to give the largest heat path to all outside surfaces you can. Adding heatsinks to the inside of an enclosed space will not help you much.

For your goals, if the driver will be external, then sure, go ahead and fill in the back of the light with silicone to optimize the heat path cheaply and easily. Then close it back up for waterproofing.

That light looks like it should handle at least 15-20W without an issue based on the results with similar sized flashlights.

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Texas Avenger Driver Series

My LED Test series - XP-L2 V5  - Nichia 219C 90+ CRILatticebright "XM-L"XHP35 & PWM efficiency - XHP50 - XP-L V5 - XM-L2 U2 - XP-G3 S5  - XP-L HI V2 - Oslon Square & direct comparison to Djozz tests - Nichia 319A - Nichia 219B 9080 CRI - Nichia 219C D320 - Nichia 229AT

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stormrider88 wrote:
Those dc/dc step-down converter cannot handle more than 1A… (Got some pop-corn again :D)

On the other side,

-The driver from Russia (which looks better quality than the HK stuff) provides a steady 2.3-2.4A when plug on my bike (input 14.6V)

The current is regulated, but the voltage simply follow the power supply voltage (I read 14.5V and 2.3A by shorting the output with meter)

Question to the the Experts:

Would it be ok to feed for example 2x XHP35 (rated 12V) in parallel with one of this driver? both leds would get around 14V but the current would be divided by 2, so around 1.2A per led…

Texas_Ace’s Graph shows an XHP35 up to 14V@3A… So, would 1.2 A @ 14V be ok for longer runtime?

!{width:90%}http://i.imgur.com/d69Zxl1.jpg!

If you’re using a constant current driver then the voltage of your XHP35 won’t be far from 12,7-12,9V at 1,2A. The LED voltage is current dependent. It’s unlikely to get an XHP35 running at 1,2A with 14V vf, unless it’s broken. At higher current the voltage will automatically increase. LED die temperature also affects the voltage: higher temp lower voltage and vice versa.
14V is your input voltage. Using buck driver even under no load the V out will be slightly lower than the V in. All the components inside the driver eat some voltage to work.

Correct me if I’m wrong here =)

- Clemence

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I thought about the same things back when I had to mod my bike headlight. Tried to find any driver to drive XPG R5 at it’s max datasheet current (1,5A). As I learnt, it’s harder to design proper passive heatsink if I were to drive all the LEDs to their max rated current. More current = less efficient LED = more heat = more heatsink cooling needed. I ended up using boost driver and cram as many LED as I could and drive them less than 500mA each. Try not to use cooling fan, it has to be a very good long life IP66 minimum to be reliable. If you are using aluminum handlebar such as Renthal you can use it as a heatsink too.

Wait are we talking motorcycle or bicycle here? For bicycle or e-bike, efficiency should be one of your priority too.

triple 3p XPG3 quad 4p XPG3, XHP35, XHP50, or even XHP70 are the better choice if you can get boost driver. Less current – higher voltage – less heat – less power needed. A single boost driver from luxdrive is a good and very reliable driver. You can easily drive up to 40Vout using 12Vin at cooler running 350mA/LED. That will broaden your choice.
Or you can invest more, using hyperboost from Taskled, up to 80Vout with adjustable current up to 3,2A!! This is rather expensive at USD 40 but will unleash your creativity. It’s also automotive rated (withstand “dirty” automotive voltage spikes).
Taskled Hyperboost

EDIT: Don’t use luxdrive unless you sure the DC power source clean from spike and pulsing. I remember I destroyed 2 luxdrive because my older scooter still used half sine DC output. You can check your front light, if it pulsing on very low RPM then it’s half sine DC. With full rectified DC, Luxdrive is OK. Older bike lead acid battery also fluctuates heavily when you starts the engine, or when hard downshifting (hard engine braking). That’s why linear driver isn’t a good choice for bikes
- Clemence

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Closer, bigger, macro pics please…

I did all the reflow with my “deluxe” DIY hotplate or heatgun.

FYI, I have two unused front light LED driver from my old scooter. Both are still working properly. If you want, I can send it to you for free (shipping cost only). Each module has three separate outputs, 3 output per module, I guess. I’ll check it later. You can use the driver and throw the rest. It has fan output too.
Tried to dig into my old post in CPF but looks like it’s deleted by the moderator. I remember modding bike’s headlight is forbidden there.


BTW: Sorry Djozz, looks like we’re hijacking/derailing your thread Silly

- Clemence

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Derailing threads is a well-respected pastime on BLF.
Carry on. Thumbs Up

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clemence wrote:
Closer, bigger, macro pics please…

I did all the reflow with my “deluxe” DIY hotplate or heatgun.

FYI, I have two unused front light LED driver from my old scooter. Both are still working properly. If you want, I can send it to you for free (shipping cost only). Each module has three separate outputs, 3 output per module, I guess. I’ll check it later. You can use the driver and throw the rest. It has fan output too.
Tried to dig into my old post in CPF but looks like it’s deleted by the moderator. I remember modding bike’s headlight is forbidden there.


BTW: Sorry Djozz, looks like we’re hijacking/derailing your thread Silly

- Clemence


Your never going to get a good beam pattern with that big emitter. That looks like an H4 bulb size. If your okay with a cool white color, you can use these bulbs.

They use the Philips Luxeon ZES chips and are much brighter than stock and give a perfect factory beam pattern.

My article on Bikers Oracle isn’t available right now as they are swapping servers. So here’s a few pics. If you want more info, just let me know.

Low beam comparison on my 86 Honda vfr700.

I hope that helps.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

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Well I guess there won’t be any pictures. Appearantly Photobucket is requiring a $400 a year fee to host pictures effective 6-28-17.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

clemence
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Tested. One channel smoked, sorry…. Silly
- Constant current 3 channel buck driver rated for 12-15V I guess…Bought from Ebay somewhere in 2013
- Designed as 2×5watt low beam and 15watt high beam (in high beam all three COBs turned on) per module
- 3 × 6V unknown super low CRI 6500+ K COB LED. Wired for 2 Lo and 1 Hi beam.
- Each channel outputs 0,87A-0,88A. You can combine all three in parallel to get 2,64A total.

Tried with 3 x XPG 4500K bought from Sedstar (super nice and dirt cheap). Link: Sedstar 4500K XPG
These are good cheap LED with known spec, perfect for testing any project. You can use your fancy LED later

Worked fine with 3 XPG: roughly 9V, 7,9watt/channel. Could be wired for a total 3 × 7,9watt = 23-24watt total.

With 2 × 144AM (6V); roughly 10,56watt per channel the IC smoked less than 10 minutes. So you better limit the output to ~8 watt/channel. With new XPG2/3 or 219C you will get lower output power since the vf of these newer LED are lower but possibly still brighter than the good old XPG. If you can find the same IC it should easy to fix, I think it’s common IC found online.


If you want to use this driver you better cool the inductor, they got very warm (not too hot) with 3 x XPG. Hence the fan.
The fan got very noisy after ~1 year street use. The salty balinese dust sucked rubbed the exposed plain bearing.

@JasonWW: We never wanted to use those badly designed LED engine. I offered Stormrider the driver, not suggesting him to use it as is. It’s an awful kind of LED lamp indeed. I bought it during the dark ages when anything brighter than halogen bulb attracted me. And no, I really hate cool white headlight, no matter what CRI they are.
As for the image hosting, try Flickr. Rather complicated but allows you to store very high quality images complete with copyrights protection and rich features.

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Flickr seems popular. I’ll just go around the forum looking for pictures that still show up and see what host they use. Wink

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

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stormrider88 wrote:
I really hate cool white headlight, no matter what CRI they are.

>>>>>> Thumbs Up


For me, anything less than cool white looks dingy. Like old style incandescent bulbs. I can’t stand it.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

clemence
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Cool white for me is anything over 5000K. I prefer to work under 5700K high CRI. Driving is another thing, on whitish cement road or behind white painted car, anything above 5000K irritate my eyes. Try tailing a white ambulance with CW HID on a empty twisty country side road (no street lights).
But yes, lower than 4000K everything looks not so good (for driving).

- Clemence

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stormrider88 wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
For me, anything less than cool white looks dingy. Like old style incandescent bulbs. I can’t stand it.

Do you ride?


Yeah, like I mentioned in post 229, I have an old 86 Honda vfr700. It’s got LED headlights (and just last week, LED tail lights).

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

clemence
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JasonWW wrote:
stormrider88 wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
For me, anything less than cool white looks dingy. Like old style incandescent bulbs. I can’t stand it.

Do you ride?


Yeah, like I mentioned in post 229, I have an old 86 Honda vfr700. It’s got LED headlights (and just last week, LED tail lights).

Reminds me of the old pocket rocket: Honda RVF400
Revving up to 15000RPM each upshifting, with 4-1 pipe sounds like a crazy mosquitoe from afar. The whiney timing gear sound also very distinctive. Those were the days…

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clemence wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
stormrider88 wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
For me, anything less than cool white looks dingy. Like old style incandescent bulbs. I can’t stand it.

Do you ride?


Yeah, like I mentioned in post 229, I have an old 86 Honda vfr700. It’s got LED headlights (and just last week, LED tail lights).

Reminds me of the old pocket rocket: Honda RVF400
Revving up to 15000RPM each upshifting, with 4-1 pipe sounds like a crazy mosquitoe from afar. The whiney timing gear sound also very distinctive. Those were the days…


Yeah, that’s the smaller, and slightly newer version of my bike. Great V4 engines.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

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stormrider88 wrote:
JasonWW, did you noticed how glaring are cool white LEDs especially while riding during rain or fog?

No, I did not.

I mainly don’t want to sacrifice the factory beam pattern just to get a slightly warmer tint. That’s what happens when you move to an xhp50, xhp70 or XML size emitter. Good beam pattern with a sharp cutoff line is my highest priority. The second highest priority is being noticeably brighter than the stock incandescent bulb. Then a lowly third is a good enough color temperature.

The first two can be accomplished with a little hunting around and maybe small modifications. Then you’re stuck with whatever color they give you. Usually that’s cool white.

My first set of car LED headlights were cool white with a tiny bit of blue, but my current set of headlights are actually a more pure white without any traces of blue. Color reproduction is quite nice.

Oh well, just trying to help.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/54477

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! http://budgetlightforum.com/node/55746

6 NarsilM user videos https://www.youtube.com/user/JasonWW2000

clemence
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stormrider88 wrote:
Ok, here is a close-up of the S2… 1 tiny resistor is quite close to the XML2 (?)

That looks easy enough, heatgun or hotplate will desolder the LED without ruining the rest of the components.
- If it’s MCPCB then hotplate is the easiest way, at 240C bed temp all 60/40, 63/37 lead and SAC305 leadfree solder will melt completely without excessive yellowing of the solder mask. Don’t let the board stayed too long on it, you’ll yellow the masking ink.

- If it’s FR4 board preheat slowly no more than 120C for 5 minutes on hot plate followed with heatgun ontop. Make sure you put a thermocouple fixed on the board so you can monitor the temp (240-260C) is max reflow temp according to many component’s specs. Place your heatgun gradually closer as the blower could blew the components off the board. When you start to smell burnt epoxy shut the heatgun off or move it farther away from the board.
The better way for FR4 boards is Infra Red top heater oven such as found in your toaster. The resin-fiberglass matrix has very low thermal conductivity making hotplate technique harder and requires longer preheat time.

- Clemence

The Miller
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Haikelight wrote somewhere they fixed the green tint shift, any idea how?

Am I correct when I say:
4 x XHP50.2 driven at 6A each (so in a Q8 like configuration 24A from the driver) produce 16K lumens
?
I have an idea for the future Q16 and 16K lumens would be so awesome but I would not want a green tint shift.

clemence
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The Miller wrote:
Haikelight wrote somewhere they fixed the green tint shift, any idea how?

Am I correct when I say:
4 x XHP50.2 driven at 6A each (so in a Q8 like configuration 24A from the driver) produce 16K lumens
?
I have an idea for the future Q16 and 16K lumens would be so awesome but I would not want a green tint shift.

coarse OP reflector?

The Miller
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ah, could mbe, i have not seen a review on the updated version

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