CREE NX : XD16 __ OFFICIAL RELEASE __

81 posts / 0 new
Last post
JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 48 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 467
Location: Donegal, Pennsylvania (SW)

thijsco19 wrote:

Just because the individual dies have a higher surface brightness the total package has a higher surface brightness compared to the xhp50.2.

BTW should make an interesting mcpcb design to put the LEDs so close to each other.

I wouldn’t recommend a 2×2 array. Only odd numbers so that you can have one die in the center perfectly focused. A 3×3 would still be smaller than the XM/50.2 footprint and be factory rated at 6000 lumens 4860 lumens.

EDIT 11/28/17: semi-official max lumen specs found. Previously stated numbers where a calculated guess from other claims made previously.

Also, it should be noted that the XHP50.2 maxes out at about the same lumens when maximally driven.

Texas_Ace
Texas_Ace's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 28 min ago
Joined: 03/24/2016 - 07:44
Posts: 7727
Location: Everything is brighter in Texas

JaredM wrote:
thijsco19 wrote:

Just because the individual dies have a higher surface brightness the total package has a higher surface brightness compared to the xhp50.2.

BTW should make an interesting mcpcb design to put the LEDs so close to each other.

I wouldn’t recommend a 2×2 array. Only odd numbers so that you can have one die in the center perfectly focused. A 3×3 would still be smaller than the XM/50.2 footprint and be factory rated at 6000 lumens

Each die is rated at 650 lumens? Wow, that is impressive. Although they always seem to put space between the dies, would it still be smaller then an xhp50 die?

If so then these new dies are a lot more interesting then I first thought. a 4×4 then should be about the same as an XHP70 except with the ability to make 10k lumens with a 3V LED? Now that is an interesting prospect.

Although I worry that they will suffer the same issues as the E21 from nichia. Where they just can’t make much output in the real world due to the lack of thermal pad.

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 48 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 467
Location: Donegal, Pennsylvania (SW)

“The first product available in the new family of XD LEDs is the XLamp® XD16 LED that delivers a breakthrough lumen density of up to 264 lm per square-millimeter”

Quote from their press release months back.

1.6*1.6*264 = 675

I don’t know if that’s going to hold true or not, but that’s what they claimed to the world. That leaked data sheet that I linked though shows max power at 4W. Which would put max output closer to 500lm based on typical efficacy at rated max current for XPG3

Agro
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 7 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 2732
Location: Ślōnsk

Texas_Ace wrote:
Although I worry that they will suffer the same issues as the E21 from nichia. Where they just can’t make much output in the real world due to the lack of thermal pad.

How about immersion cooling then? Smile
Agro
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 7 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 2732
Location: Ślōnsk

A thought:
3×3 array, but wired to 2 separately driven groups.
Group 1 is only the central emitter.
Group 2 is the rest.

You can drive only group 1 to have a thrower or drive both for a flooder.
Would it be possible to make a good PCB for such light? If no, would cutting corners and making 4+1 enable such thing?

clemence
clemence's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 07/12/2015 - 02:58
Posts: 1706
Location: Bali - Indonesia

I think there’s a slim chance to get a white CSP LED without phosphor blanketing the sides of the die. Without the phosphor the blue light would leak without first converted to white light. I’m curious about this NX footprint.
Cree has different approach here. The NX phosphors cover the entire sides, while E21A blocking and reflecting the side spill using white reflective material. This perhaps explain why NX produce more output. E21A has the narrowest beam among current CSPs.

- Clemence

ECHO
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/12/2015 - 11:16
Posts: 47
Location: Denver, CO

No new info, but apparently Arrow is getting ready to sell the XD16’s.

Texas_Ace
Texas_Ace's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 28 min ago
Joined: 03/24/2016 - 07:44
Posts: 7727
Location: Everything is brighter in Texas

The price is attractive. XD16? Does that mean 16 dies?

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 min 28 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 13332
Location: Amsterdam

I think it was 1.6×1.6mm die/led size

link to djozz tests 

“I used to think that top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that thirty years of good science could address these problems. I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy, and to deal with these we need a cultural and spiritual transformation. And we scientists don’t know how to do that.”   (Gus Speth)

Texas_Ace
Texas_Ace's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 28 min ago
Joined: 03/24/2016 - 07:44
Posts: 7727
Location: Everything is brighter in Texas

Ah, ok. So the die is actually larger then an XP-G3? Interesting, I had assumed they would be smaller.

everydaysurvivalgear
everydaysurvivalgear's picture
Offline
Last seen: 34 min 28 sec ago
Joined: 07/31/2015 - 10:25
Posts: 2962
Location: sydney australia (GMT+10)

Okay i am snooping around and if i am right? It is a XD16A and its a dome less LED?

Cree Extreme Density LEDs
• Lumen Density: First to deliver >200 lm/ mm2
• Optical Crosstalk: Very low
• Thermal Contact: Highest in class
• Soldering: Proven footprint design
• Handling: Very robust package

  • Size
    1,6 × 1,6 mm
  • Product Options
    CRI 70/80/90
  • Maximum Drive Current
    1,5 A
  • Light Output
    540 lm @ 4,5 W
  • Voltage Class
    3 V
  • Viewing Angle
    135°
  • Max Power
    4,5 W

Scroll through here and have a read!
https://www.msc-technologies.eu/fileadmin/msc-files/05company/06media_ce...

!cree!

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 48 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 467
Location: Donegal, Pennsylvania (SW)

540lm @ 4.5W =120lm/W at max rating. Still pretty high. I’d say there’s still plenty of room for overdriving with that efficacy. This was a concern since these newer LEDs are getting more aggressive with their drive currents because of increasing rated operating temperature. Assuming there isn’t (which is a silly assumption) any thermal bottlenecking and sudden drop-off at higher currents, we could see 1000 lumens from this LED if it follows the typical curve. I’m trying to keep my expectations low but I’m still very excited for this LED

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 min 28 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 13332
Location: Amsterdam

JaredM wrote:
540lm @ 4.5W =120lm/W at max rating. Still pretty high. I’d say there’s still plenty of room for overdriving with that efficacy. This was a concern since these newer LEDs are getting more aggressive with their drive currents because of increasing rated operating temperature. Assuming there isn’t (which is a silly assumption) any thermal bottlenecking and sudden drop-off at higher currents, we could see 1000 lumens from this LED if it follows the typical curve. I’m trying to keep my expectations low but I’m still very excited for this LED

Clemence has been fiddling with the Nichia equivalent of these leds (the E17 and E21 series) and ran into some new problems with these (CSP) leds (burned phosfor above the gap between the solder pads, photon cross-talk between leds in a matrix) , but he also made progress in driving them at higher currents with a newly developed (expensive!) ledboard. (the Cree NX leds seem to differ from a true CSP led by that there is still a substrate under the die). So indeed keep the expectations limited until the performance in flashlights is proven.

link to djozz tests 

“I used to think that top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that thirty years of good science could address these problems. I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy, and to deal with these we need a cultural and spiritual transformation. And we scientists don’t know how to do that.”   (Gus Speth)

clemence
clemence's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 07/12/2015 - 02:58
Posts: 1706
Location: Bali - Indonesia

I still don’t know the exact footprint but it won’t differ much compared to E17A or E21A (both have the same solder pads). At the very least it will fit in the VR16S1 as a single or 4p setup. It would be great if it fits in the VR16SP4.
This is not a true CSP, looks like there’s still AlN or SiC beneath the phosphor. If this is true then it would not suffer from premature phosphors overheating like those E Nichias.

- Clemence

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 48 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 467
Location: Donegal, Pennsylvania (SW)
Pok
Pok's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/26/2011 - 15:23
Posts: 923
Location: The Land of Smiles

Thermal Resistance 6 °C/W Facepalm

ECHO
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/12/2015 - 11:16
Posts: 47
Location: Denver, CO
ECHO wrote:
No new info, but apparently Arrow is getting ready to sell the XD16’s.

Interestingly, the XD16’s don’t appear to be cheaper than similar XP-G3’s on Arrow’s site, at least not yet.

Texas_Ace
Texas_Ace's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 28 min ago
Joined: 03/24/2016 - 07:44
Posts: 7727
Location: Everything is brighter in Texas
Pok wrote:
Thermal Resistance 6 °C/W Facepalm

What happens to the super low thermal resistance that was floating around earlier?

With that kind of thermal resistance my hope for this LED just about died.

Sad.

EasyB
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 13 hours ago
Joined: 03/09/2016 - 15:24
Posts: 1499
Location: Ohio

Hopefully the thermal resistance is not a game-ender and we’ll still get some good output out of it. The XPG2 thermal resistance is 4C/W.

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 48 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 467
Location: Donegal, Pennsylvania (SW)
Pok wrote:
Thermal Resistance 6 °C/W Facepalm

Yes. This is high compared to the latest 3535 or larger LEDs, but it’s on par with the XQ-E which shares the footprint. Thermal resistance though only matters proportionally to the chips thermal derate curve (think xhp.2 increased performance with equiv °C/W) . According to the datasheets, the improvement in high temperature efficacy (vs XPg2) of the XD16 should offset the higher temps it will see, making it very similar to the XPG2. ALSO, the Vf curve/value will affect the extrapolation of the Flux v Amps as what we should really be comparing in these cases are Flux vs Watts (but circular dependencies arise here so yikes…). Of course this is only eyeballed and napkin type calculations, I’d expect peak output ~6A and 1400 lumens. Sounds too good to be true. But so does the rest of it, at least in my eyes. YMMV.

I still keep imagining 9000 lumens @ ~90lm/W from a 3×3 array (~XML footprint) with amazing throw (XPL HI levels?) and minimal tint shift. Artifacts similar to MTG2, which I find hardly offensive.

@TexasAce

The only thermal values that floated around before were 5°C/W that I remember, so this isn’t a huge departure from that. Let’s also keep in mind the Luxeon V and Nichia E series that claim super low <1 °C/W yet are not crazy impressive (or pathetic for the Nichia) at high currents.

Time will tell.

Texas_Ace
Texas_Ace's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 28 min ago
Joined: 03/24/2016 - 07:44
Posts: 7727
Location: Everything is brighter in Texas
JaredM wrote:
Pok wrote:
Thermal Resistance 6 °C/W Facepalm

Yes. This is high compared to the latest 3535 or larger LEDs, but it’s on par with the XQ-E which shares the footprint. Thermal resistance though only matters proportionally to the chips thermal derate curve (think xhp.2 increased performance with equiv °C/W) . According to the datasheets, the improvement in high temperature efficacy (vs XPg2) of the XD16 should offset the higher temps it will see, making it very similar to the XPG2. ALSO, the Vf curve/value will affect the extrapolation of the Flux v Amps as what we should really be comparing in these cases are Flux vs Watts (but circular dependencies arise here so yikes…). Of course this is only eyeballed and napkin type calculations, I’d expect peak output ~6A and 1400 lumens. Sounds too good to be true. But so does the rest of it, at least in my eyes. YMMV.

I still keep imagining 9000 lumens @ ~90lm/W from a 3×3 array (~XML footprint) with amazing throw (XPL HI levels?) and minimal tint shift. Artifacts similar to MTG2, which I find hardly offensive.

@TexasAce

The only thermal values that floated around before were 5°C/W that I remember, so this isn’t a huge departure from that. Let’s also keep in mind the Luxeon V and Nichia E series that claim super low <1 °C/W yet are not crazy impressive (or pathetic for the Nichia) at high currents.

Time will tell.

All good points.

I also would love to see a 3×3 array of these dies done in the same fashion as the xhp35. Or even a 5×5 as a replacement for the xhp70.

Agro
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 7 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 2732
Location: Ślōnsk

Not mentioned yet, the peak efficacy exceeds 170 lm/W. That enables a light that is both high-efficacy (multi-die) flooder and high throw-efficient (1 die) thrower. You can’t do that with Blackie as it’s both larger and way less efficient.

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 48 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 467
Location: Donegal, Pennsylvania (SW)

A 3×3 array actually seems to be a practical limit, as it is already RATED at 54W. The XHP70.2 is “rated” at 29W. As you’ve just been realizing that’s a very extreme heat flux to deal with (overdriven) in even the largest air/convection cooled application. We could go 5×5 and run each LED more efficiently, but then we’d lose the throw advantages to gain lumens/W and a larger hotspot (would be nice for a floody, HiCRI, long runtime light). 3×3 seems the best replacement for most aggressively driven existing setups, especially in throwers.

A 3×3 maxed out in Giggles would be amazing. ~XHP35HI throw with greater than 70.2 lumens? Anyone? Beer

EasyB
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 13 hours ago
Joined: 03/09/2016 - 15:24
Posts: 1499
Location: Ohio

You have convinced me, JaredM. I’m planning on getting some when they are available and putting together a makeshift MCPCB from copper square rod to make a 3×3 array.

luminarium iaculator
luminarium iaculator's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 49 min ago
Joined: 07/07/2013 - 09:09
Posts: 2021
Location: X

Modding is making something how you want it to be, not how it comes stock...

Old-Lumens

Texas_Ace
Texas_Ace's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 28 min ago
Joined: 03/24/2016 - 07:44
Posts: 7727
Location: Everything is brighter in Texas

luminarium iaculator wrote:
JaredM wrote:
IT’S HERE!! Glasses

http://www.cree.com/led-components/products/xlamp-leds-discrete/xlamp-xd16
“:http://www.cree.com/led-components/products/xlamp-leds-discrete/xlamp-xd16

Did anyone tried that? Smile

Are they for sale anywhere?

Where would you get an mcpcb? Would the djozz mcpcb’s work?

luminarium iaculator
luminarium iaculator's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 49 min ago
Joined: 07/07/2013 - 09:09
Posts: 2021
Location: X

Where is Djozz? Smile

Modding is making something how you want it to be, not how it comes stock...

Old-Lumens

Agro
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 7 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 2732
Location: Ślōnsk

He’s busy.

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 min 28 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 13332
Location: Amsterdam

Here. I have something better than my mcpcb, I have a few of clemence’s two-pad mcpcb, it should perform like a DTP-board, or even better.

But first we need a seller Smile

link to djozz tests 

“I used to think that top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that thirty years of good science could address these problems. I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy, and to deal with these we need a cultural and spiritual transformation. And we scientists don’t know how to do that.”   (Gus Speth)

luminarium iaculator
luminarium iaculator's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 49 min ago
Joined: 07/07/2013 - 09:09
Posts: 2021
Location: X

I think this emitter will be potent performer, and his higher forward voltage will make it one of the best led emitters for single cell FET driver configurations.

Modding is making something how you want it to be, not how it comes stock...

Old-Lumens

Pages