The FW3A a TLF BLF special elegant triple powerful flashlight

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emarkd
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Calaveras wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
Off Topic, but where is this internet relay chat you guys talk about? I don’t have a clue. Lol
not “where” but “when” It was a place to geek out in the 1990’s over your very specific interest and chat in real time. I thought it died around 2000… man I feel old.

IRC is far from dead. Some newer “collaboration” platforms like Slack or Discord have taken a bite out of IRC traffic I’m sure, but there’s still plenty of life in the original.

Jonandreadolan
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I’d like one please. Thanks! I love every light I’ve bought so far!

Eraursls1984
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spaceminions wrote:
So, here’s the thing. What a light looks like on a white wall is like looking at a computer screen; it could be a mix of a red, green, and blue and you wouldn’t know it. The part where CRI comes into play is when you actually go to use the light, and you realize that when you look at the same object under two different lights, it’s not just colored by the tint of the light used… if there’s colors that are missing in the spectrum, you can’t see those colors with that light. In most cases, it just makes things look washed out, or discolored, or pale, or something like that. Often, a person’s face looks less healthy due to a lack of enough red in the spectrum. In the extreme case, you don’t just lose the ability to distinguish colors accurately. If there’s an object that’s a deep red, for instance, and your led doesn’t have much of that color, the object will look black which is not at all what you might expect. (If it’s a mix of colors, you’ll see whatever remains – maybe a less saturated red will look closer to a grayish brown, or something like the palm of a hand will look a bit blue-green compared to normal. In the extreme case of a pure red light, if you have an object that’s got text in a pink color, then under a very red light, it will be hard to read that against a white or gray background. That’s the thing about CRI. If you have a white wall, you can see when a light has an odd tint that might affect your perceptions. But if you have a low CRI, which has a tint that seems nice and white, you could actually not realize that you’re seeing everything wrong. That’s how you might end up buying clothes that end up looking different when you bring them home, to give a common example. And that’s why, given that my ability to adapt to varying color temperature is functional, I am happy to work within a range of color temperatures I find acceptable, but I do not want a light that is too terribly lacking in some part of the spectrum compared to a black body equivalent.

I love how it’s assumed that anyone that doesn’t like a certain High CRI emitter only uses their lights to look at white walls.

The 219C has been anywhere from bad to terrible, in real world use for me. It’s actually good when using it in the great outdoors, but I mainly use my lights in the city, and in my house. Sadly, I have no white walls, but the white trim does blend in with the beige walls with the 219C’s I’ve tried. The XPL-HI 70+ and 80+ are a little better than the C indoors, far better in the city, and only slightly worse outdoors.

teacher
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Eraursls1984 wrote:

I love how it’s assumed that anyone that doesn’t like a certain High CRI emitter only uses their lights to look at white walls.
(snip)
+1 .. Thumbs Up .. Ain’t it the truth.
It is downright hilarious in fact. If someone is not a die hard ‘Card Carrying CRI Baby’, it seems their opinion & preference does not count in the eyes of some. Facepalm
What a joke that is….. Big Smile

The same applies, it seems anyway; to those that don’t like 4000K or warmer. Facepalm
Another joke…..

I say live & let live. One preference is no better or worse than another. It depends on what an individual likes & wants…..

And we certainly all do not prefer or want the same thing.

Give me 5000K – 5700K all day long. If it happens to have High CRI fine with me… if it does not, no big deal at all.

I’ll still be able to tell if it is red, blue, green, or orange either way.
…..
@ Eraursls1984 / I see your from North Florida. I hope you were not in the path of ‘Michael’. If your were I hope you fared OK. Thumbs Up

It was a bad one!!! Still hurricane strength when it reached mid Georgia. Shocked

I feel for the people in Mexico Beach, looks like it was all but wiped off the map. Sad

      You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load. / Paul "Bear" Bryant ~/~\~ "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast"

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Jerommel
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Just for the record, i have many high CRI LEDs especialy 219C (yeah i bought maybe too many at the time..) and although some of them don’t have the tint i would prefer, they are ALL better tinted than low CRI Cree LEDs with similar colour temperature.
Low CRI LEDS make beige and skin colour (for example) look green, whereas high CRI LEDs show them in the colours they actually are.
Must say, the 3000K Nichia 219C i have are the least pleasant tint. Too yellow, apparently above the BBL too (hint of green rather than red)
Here’s my point though:
When you have cool white LEDs to me the CRI is less important.
The red end of the spectrum is supposed to be less present with 5500 – 6500K, so it still looks more or less like it should with low CRI cool white LEDs.
And there has been progress too. I have some old XP-C Q5 cool white LEDs, and there really is very very little red in their spectrum.
Red objects don’t even light up, so to speak. It’s actually a bit funny. Smile
Later Cree’s may not have deep red, but at least they have some orangey red, so red objects will light up, albeit a bit orangey.

Anyway, it’s a matter of how important you think colour rendition is.
Depends on the application too.
What many CRI babies (i guess i’m one of them though..) seem to overlook is the fact that with low light levels the human eye can hardly properly distinguish colours anyway.
The human vision system prioritizes contrast over colour identification, because the prior is simply more important than the latter.
So basically for close range application with sufficient output, the CRI and tint matters much more than with a light outside.
INteresting to note is that outside in the dark, where contrast counts most, a warmer white LED provides more clarity to the human vision system than cool white. But when you use this same light indoors and (thus) at closer ranges, the lack of red in a warmer white LED really shows, and skin colour and beige turn greenish..

80 CRI LEDs are often a nice compromise between output numbers and colour rendition.
The few 80CRI Cree’s i have are quite okay.
I have some old LG 4000K 3535 LEDs that are quite excellent actually.

Now the 4000K 90CRI Samsung LH351D’s i have certainly are not greenish. In fact, this is a very nice LED with high efficiency to boot.
But the die is very large, so if i had read more about the LED choice in regards to the optic used, i would have known they don’t make a great team..
No surprise the XP-L HI works well with small triple TIR optics.

ToyKeeper
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I have a couple lights at 4000K with 92 CRI and 95 CRI. I also have several around 5000K with only 70 CRI. I find that the 4000K ones look yellow, while the 5000K ones look white and give better color rendition.

But the best-looking light is a matter of personal preference. It has no right answer, just an ideal value per person. For me, that means a well-blended beam which is brightest at the center and fades pretty smoothly to the edge, at about 4700K, on the pink side of the BBL, with high CRI.

I find that the ideal white light is a combination of several factors, and their importance is not equal. In order of most to least important, the factors are:

  1. Beam shape / consistency.
  2. Color temperature.
  3. Tint (above or below BBL).
  4. CRI value. (assuming everything is at least 70 CRI)

It’s nice to have all of these, but if I had to drop one, the first one I’d sacrifice is CRI. It’s a way to fine-tune the last few details after the bigger factors are aligned.

ActiveAl
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ToyKeeper wrote:
I have a couple lights at 4000K with 92 CRI and 95 CRI. I also have several around 5000K with only 70 CRI. I find that the 4000K ones look yellow, while the 5000K ones look white and give better color rendition. But the best-looking light is a matter of personal preference. It has no right answer, just an ideal value per person. For me, that means a well-blended beam which is brightest at the center and fades pretty smoothly to the edge, at about 4700K, on the pink side of the BBL, with high CRI. I find that the ideal white light is a combination of several factors, and their importance is not equal. In order of most to least important, the factors are: # Beam shape / consistency. # Color temperature. # Tint (above or below BBL). # CRI value. (assuming everything is at least 70 CRI) It's nice to have all of these, but if I had to drop one, the first one I'd sacrifice is CRI. It's a way to fine-tune the last few details after the bigger factors are aligned.

 

Thanks!

spaceminions
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I’m not surprised to see my comments misinterpreted, but still. No, I wasn’t laughing because of your preferences, only the way you express them, which is perhaps too uncharitable but at this point I don’t think I mind that.

I wasn’t saying that someone only uses their light against white walls, but that no matter how good it looks while they do, when they don’t, it can and does throw off the color of objects to some degree, regardless of whether they notice or whether it’s because (as in the example I gave) there’s a lack of red; if you look at maukka’s charts, I would probably dislike one where there is any set of wavelengths that there is too much or little of for the color temperature specified, including lights that are too green (or, if taken to extremes, too pink), relative to what should be present, not in absolute terms. Maybe it has a very big spike that includes too much of one color, compared to all the others. The thing is, even if you move the goalposts and assume that you’re using such little light that nothing you’re seeing is lit at a level that allows you to see in color, the effect does not go away completely. Instead of something being a different color than it should be, it’s just lighter or darker than it should be.

I do not attempt to say that others must think as I do. But I refuse to be told that my preference for color accuracy is invalid; that I am a freak for wanting things to appear as they are, that making some things look strange without knowing it is okay but if a led is not precisely the right tint, then no matter its other qualities it’s instantly trash. (Note: I exclude TK here since she has mentioned her inability to automatically adjust to warmer and cooler CCT’s) And hey, i don’t absolutely love the 219c either; I like the viltrox panel much more – it gets CRI, CCT, and position orthagonal to BBL right, so there’s not much to object to. But with the 219c, when mine came in just slightly green, I considered just using it, because honestly at the minor level of green I saw, it was hard to notice in the real world. But eventually I decided to buy a $1 swatchbook of filters, put the lightest or second-lightest minus green on there, and called it a day. Maybe sometime I’ll get the zircon version due to the heat, but otherwise, it was a simple solution to a minor issue. Don’t have the sheet? Don’t worry about it; if it wasn’t for the d4 219c being 5250k, i might not even have bothered – at 4000k, like the lh351d’s I’m looking forward to in this light, the effect is supposed to be little to none depending what batch you choose, and regardless, if I was looking at 4000k, once my vision adjusted, i’d probably have been even less likely to notice.

Anyway. The point here is, you can’t retreat into “but mah personal preference” until you acknowledge that that means that others’ preferences get equal validity. So the CRI freak thing? Yeah… Otherwise, don’t let anything I said be twisted into some sort of “CRI is most valid” thing. No, CRI is just valid, nothing more or less. If you’d rather enjoy your lights by how their light looks when you use them rather than how well the way it makes some things look corresponds to how they look under ideal sources, that’s a valid way too.

Card Carrying CRI baby https://b.thumbs.redditmedia.com/laMC7BGhREfYTRQjYe2I5FMjTF1IjrmM6bPLK9SKEXU.png

 

chadvone
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I trust TK.

spaceminions
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chadvone wrote:
I trust TK.

I hope you’re right that you and TK prefer exactly the same things.

Card Carrying CRI baby https://b.thumbs.redditmedia.com/laMC7BGhREfYTRQjYe2I5FMjTF1IjrmM6bPLK9SKEXU.png

 

ActiveAl
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TK, thanks for doing the heavy lifting!

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Jerommel wrote:
The red end of the spectrum is supposed to be less present with 5500 – 6500K, so it still looks more or less like it should with low CRI cool white LEDs.

I definitely see a distinct difference. The only emitters I have in that range are low output Yuji 5mm 5600K, but when I have compared them to some of the better cool white 5mm’s that I’ve ended up with over the years on wood, the difference in appearance is well beyond the moderate difference in color temperature.

But it really is up to individual preference how much that matters.

Quote:
What many CRI babies (i guess i’m one of them though..) seem to overlook is the fact that with low light levels the human eye can hardly properly distinguish colours anyway. The human vision system prioritizes contrast over colour identification, because the prior is simply more important than the latter.

This is quite true. Our low light “scotopic” vision has poor color discrimination, especially in the red range,

Context also matters for me. My main headlamp is actually 3000K. It’s great when working indoors, as if I’m going between a dark attic and a lit room, or supplementing my overhead lights for detailed work, they’re a close match. Also out in the woods with no other lights, the warm light is easy on the eyes and fairly natural looking when there are no other lights to compare against.

If I’m using it around twilight or LED streetlights, however, it seems distractingly orange.

The same to a less degree happens with 4000K, except it seems slightly cool compared to 2700-3000K household lights. I treat it as a compromise CCT – usually not ideal, but still a reasonable match for most situations.

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spaceminions wrote:
I’m not surprised to see my comments misinterpreted, but still. No, I wasn’t laughing because of your preferences, only the way you express them, which is perhaps too uncharitable but at this point I don’t think I mind that.

I wasn’t saying that someone only uses their light against white walls, but that no matter how good it looks while they do, when they don’t, it can and does throw off the color of objects to some degree, regardless of whether they notice or whether it’s because (as in the example I gave) there’s a lack of red; if you look at maukka’s charts, I would probably dislike one where there is any set of wavelengths that there is too much or little of for the color temperature specified, including lights that are too green (or, if taken to extremes, too pink), relative to what should be present, not in absolute terms. Maybe it has a very big spike that includes too much of one color, compared to all the others. The thing is, even if you move the goalposts and assume that you’re using such little light that nothing you’re seeing is lit at a level that allows you to see in color, the effect does not go away completely. Instead of something being a different color than it should be, it’s just lighter or darker than it should be.

I do not attempt to say that others must think as I do. But I refuse to be told that my preference for color accuracy is invalid; that I am a freak for wanting things to appear as they are, that making some things look strange without knowing it is okay but if a led is not precisely the right tint, then no matter its other qualities it’s instantly trash. (Note: I exclude TK here since she has mentioned her inability to automatically adjust to warmer and cooler CCT’s) And hey, i don’t absolutely love the 219c either; I like the viltrox panel much more – it gets CRI, CCT, and position orthagonal to BBL right, so there’s not much to object to. But with the 219c, when mine came in just slightly green, I considered just using it, because honestly at the minor level of green I saw, it was hard to notice in the real world. But eventually I decided to buy a $1 swatchbook of filters, put the lightest or second-lightest minus green on there, and called it a day. Maybe sometime I’ll get the zircon version due to the heat, but otherwise, it was a simple solution to a minor issue. Don’t have the sheet? Don’t worry about it; if it wasn’t for the d4 219c being 5250k, i might not even have bothered – at 4000k, like the lh351d’s I’m looking forward to in this light, the effect is supposed to be little to none depending what batch you choose, and regardless, if I was looking at 4000k, once my vision adjusted, i’d probably have been even less likely to notice.

Anyway. The point here is, you can’t retreat into “but mah personal preference” until you acknowledge that that means that others’ preferences get equal validity. So the CRI freak thing? Yeah… Otherwise, don’t let anything I said be twisted into some sort of “CRI is most valid” thing. No, CRI is just valid, nothing more or less. If you’d rather enjoy your lights by how their light looks when you use them rather than how well the way it makes some things look corresponds to how they look under ideal sources, that’s a valid way too.

I’m actually astounded how completely your last post was misinterpreted and how quickly people were to jump to the “defense” of their own preference… because apparently they felt you were attacking it?

End of the day I’m much more worried about tint shift (which wouldn’t usually be an issue with a triple like this anyway) and green hue than CRI, but I’ll certainly take higher Ra when I can get it, there is literally zero downside other than a slight loss in efficiency (which isn’t going to matter much in an EDC-size/style light). If the beam profile of a given emitter is half-decent I think I could make do with almost anything. Luckily, thanks to the emitter choices we’re expecting bad tint shouldn’t really be an issue at all, its pretty simple – pick the option that best suits you, whether you care more about the beam profile or CRI.

I’m not really concerned about making a “bad choice” at all with how easy swapping that SST-20 triple board into this is supposed to be, and it costing a whopping $7. My interest in the light is much more to due with the tail e-switch and small size than what emitters come stock.

chadvone
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spaceminions wrote:
chadvone wrote:
I trust TK.
I hope you’re right that you and TK prefer exactly the same things.

TK has had the light in hand. I trust that over any speculations.

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chadvone wrote:
spaceminions wrote:
chadvone wrote:
I trust TK.
I hope you’re right that you and TK prefer exactly the same things.

TK has had the light in hand. I trust that over any speculations.

That’s not the point… If someone has a new light in hand and LOVES the 6500k temp of the emitters, that doesnt align with my preference at all.

Not that I necessarily have amy different preference than TK in this case, but someone may want a very floody light for example, so her comment on the LH351 + frosted optic being too floody would have a very different meaning to that person.

ToyKeeper
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chadvone wrote:
TK has had the light in hand. I trust that over any speculations.

A lot of people have used triples with Carclo optics. They’re extremely popular, and every light designed that way has pretty much the same beam.

The prototypes may be rare, but almost anyone can see exactly how the beam will look, using common parts. I have no monopoly on experience here.

To put it another way, just because I like a particular type of pizza doesn’t mean everyone has to like that same type of pizza. There isn’t a right and wrong kind of pizza. And lots of people have enough experience with pizza that they can confidently order something they’ll like at a pizza place they’ve never been to before.

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spaceminions wrote:
I’m not surprised to see my comments misinterpreted

A wall of text with overly assertive language and heavy dependence on outside context… is going to be interpreted as confrontational. Many people won’t even read the whole comment, and will instead just scan for key phrases here and there to get the gist.

If you can condense a comment into fewer words, and quote the people being replied to or write in a way which doesn’t need quotes, it reduces the chance of misinterpretation.

Anyway, back to the topic, the two emitter types requested are both very highly regarded on BLF:

  • XP-L HI 3D (~4850K)
  • LH351D 4000K 90CRI

It would be hard to go wrong with either one, but which one looks better will vary from person to person.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
I have a couple lights at 4000K with 92 CRI and 95 CRI. I also have several around 5000K with only 70 CRI. I find that the 4000K ones look yellow, while the 5000K ones look white and give better color rendition.
Hmm…
I don’t find the 219C 4000K yellow at all, unless you compare it to cooler whites, but that’s a matter of colour temperature.
Must say though, and this makes a lot of difference, i don’t have any 4000K 219C in a reflector light.
I tried one in a C8 at the time and it was very disappointing. A lot of tint shift and thus a dirty brown corona with a green hue.
Quote:

But the best-looking light is a matter of personal preference. It has no right answer, just an ideal value per person. For me, that means a well-blended beam which is brightest at the center and fades pretty smoothly to the edge, at about 4700K, on the pink side of the BBL, with high CRI.

I find that the ideal white light is a combination of several factors, and their importance is not equal. In order of most to least important, the factors are:

  1. Beam shape / consistency.
  2. Color temperature.
  3. Tint (above or below BBL).
  4. CRI value. (assuming everything is at least 70 CRI)

It’s nice to have all of these, but if I had to drop one, the first one I’d sacrifice is CRI. It’s a way to fine-tune the last few details after the bigger factors are aligned.

You can avoid tint shift quite a bit by using a tall centring gasket that shrouds the LED a little.
Paint it white with White Out (Tipp Ex) and the green hue brown mixes with the more red hue cooler white of the spill.
The green hue brown will no longer be in the corona, in fact, there is much less of a corona (depending on how much is shrouded).
I did an XM-L2 4D and a 219C 3000K like that, and also a Samsung LH351 in reflector lights.
Just an off topic tip…
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iamlucky13 wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
The red end of the spectrum is supposed to be less present with 5500 – 6500K, so it still looks more or less like it should with low CRI cool white LEDs.

I definitely see a distinct difference. The only emitters I have in that range are low output Yuji 5mm 5600K, but when I have compared them to some of the better cool white 5mm’s that I’ve ended up with over the years on wood, the difference in appearance is well beyond the moderate difference in color temperature.

I don’t know any regular 5mm through hole white LEDs that are nice.
Their tint and CRI, let alone the amount of red make any Cree of the same color temp look nice.
Quote:

But it really is up to individual preference how much that matters.

Quote:
What many CRI babies (i guess i’m one of them though..) seem to overlook is the fact that with low light levels the human eye can hardly properly distinguish colours anyway. The human vision system prioritizes contrast over colour identification, because the prior is simply more important than the latter.

This is quite true. Our low light “scotopic” vision has poor color discrimination, especially in the red range,

Context also matters for me. My main headlamp is actually 3000K. It’s great when working indoors, as if I’m going between a dark attic and a lit room, or supplementing my overhead lights for detailed work, they’re a close match. Also out in the woods with no other lights, the warm light is easy on the eyes and fairly natural looking when there are no other lights to compare against.

If I’m using it around twilight or LED streetlights, however, it seems distractingly orange.

The same to a less degree happens with 4000K, except it seems slightly cool compared to 2700-3000K household lights. I treat it as a compromise CCT – usually not ideal, but still a reasonable match for most situations.

I personally prefer 4000K for work lights.
It’s more “awake” than household lighting, but still easy on the eyes / relaxed.
Maybe it’s the big blue spike in the average LED spectrum that makes me prefer something warmer than 5000K.
Bob_McBob
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Jerommel wrote:
Hmm… I don’t find the 219C 4000K yellow at all, unless you compare it to cooler whites, but that’s a matter of colour temperature.

Sure looks yellow beside an E21A.

Jerommel
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Yes, but the E21 4000K is rather rosy.

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Jerommel wrote:
Yes, but the E21 4000K is rather rosy.

Rosy is good. Smile

At least, I think so. People with different eyes have different preferences though.

Jerommel
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I like it too.
I think most people prefer LEDs below the BBL
But i never experienced the 219C 4000K as being greenish, except, as i mentioned, in a reflector light.

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I see more green than yellow..

 

One of the best things I’ve done over the years is to be aware of people who like lights that you like and treat them like a bit of a mentor . I started doing this a long time ago and have followed Toykeeper since we both care about similar things in a light . I even know her preferance in tint vs mine “ I like more red” ..and of course “ I’m right”

 

Jasonww on the other hand likes cool white and doesn’t notice low pwm .. both of which make me crazy. 

 When someone simply says  TK likes it I have a pretty clear idea what it means.

καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

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I used to like cool white but as my eyes have aged anything much above 4000k has too much glare and has become increasingly uncomfortable to use. So I agree with TK that preferences, literally, have a lot to do with our individual eyesight

chadvone
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ToyKeeper wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
Yes, but the E21 4000K is rather rosy.

Rosy is good. Smile

At least, I think so. People with different eyes have different preferences though.

I do not like rosy in an EDC light. I enjoy it in an trail hiking camping type light. But not anywhere there might be white.
Of course this is just my opinion

eas
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Rosy tint always gives me pause, but it’s better than the same degree of greenish tint.

This non-political signature is not non-political.

Coscar
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Geeez I wish I could see the subtle color differences yall see! fwiw….. I am not color blind

Im not a Pessimist …. just an Optimist with a lot of experience

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Be happy you don’t, less to argue about.

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Tom Tom
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ToyKeeper wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
Yes, but the E21 4000K is rather rosy.

Rosy is good. Smile

At least, I think so. People with different eyes have different preferences though.

Indeed.

See http://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness/types-of-colour-bli... for some background.

Many individuals possessing a Y chromosome may have some degree of abnormality, even if they don’t know it. Which is why, when choosing colourful things, it is always best to also consult someone with two X chromosomes.

The odd thing is that this doesn’t seem to translate to painting, or fashion design, or cinematography and colour-ism, where the XYs historically totally dominated. But that is changing. Rapidly.

I think I have pretty good colour vision,

Edit: despite being mostly a blue-eyed blonde Angle. With a big dose of Scandinavian.

But I expect my corneas are ageing, and my retinas getting a bit frazzled (though my eyes have been protected from UV all my life, due to wearing suitable glasses for my short sight, specified by my uncle, a very senior eye-surgeon.)

As for use in very low modes, where only the rods are working, not the cones, it is moot.

Back to the point, as TK has said, this is just another triple with a http://www.carclo.co.uk optic. (A great British company by the way, within spitting distance of me). Dressed up in a fancy looking suit that might be durable.So don’t expect any surprises.

But with a next-gen driver and TK’s firmware. Which is the attraction for me.

PS:, I’m trying to limit myself to 1 post per day. And avoid grumpiness, as far as possible.

Any more news yet ?

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