Project Excalibur - Next Generation LED Thrower (many pics) - UPDATE 2018-01-24

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Enderman
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luminarium iaculator wrote:
Yes that 3×42 “sunnranger” I build obviously had non appropriate coating for light build.
I just build and compare with commercial available stuff on lux meter. And of course “without-with” lux meter lenses method for reflectors. And not that I tried super coated lenses cause beside China available stuff KD and similar I did not have chance to try any better.

So please recommend where we could buy or try VIS cated lenses?

“An AR coated lens will always outperform a non-AR coated one if it is the correct type of coating.”

That is probably true. But how to know if we have right type of AR coating? And did you try any form of acrylic lenses?


I posted two links above, one is for glass and one is for acrylic.
Both are VIS AR coated.

If you get your lenses from flashlightlens.com then they are all made for VIS spectrum.

BTW we’re talking about plano-plano lenses here, also known as optical windows. That’s what the maxabeam head has on the front of the reflector.
But the same stuff applies if you’re using plano-aspheric lenses for a lens thrower flashlight.

luminarium iaculator
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Thanks,

We tend to post at same time Smile

So for those KD and similar China stuff AR lenses we mostly use here. Did you tried and what coating do they have?

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Enderman
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luminarium iaculator wrote:
Thanks,

We tend to post at same time Smile

So for those KD and similar China stuff AR lenses we mostly use here. Did you tried and what coating do they have?


Never tried them. I would assume they are VIS AR coatings if they are made for flashlights.
Probably much worse quality though than the type of stuff you get from edmund optics or flashlightlens.com.

It is certainly possible that a crappy AR coated glass lens has worse transmission than a high quality non-coated acrylic one, you never know with that stuff from china.
This is why I try to get my stuff from more reliable sources like high end optics manufacturers or mountain electronics and places like that.

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My light has this: https://www.flashlightlens.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=UCLp_AR

Why?
Because they are known to be good and they offer custom cut sizes without being really expensive. I also thought they were robust, but…

luminarium iaculator
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Edmundoptics is serious manufacturer while flashlightlens is distributor of quality stuff? Shipping is something that will kill most of users that are not from USA.

So acrylic lenses can have 97% of transmittance and they are probably more durable than glass one.

My acrylic lenses I use as preccolimator in aspherics seems to have 100% of light transmittance without AR coating??? How I stupidly concluded that? Big Smile Cause without them or with them I have same result on lux meter(with them I have 100% larger beam of course) And sometimes they are even scratched but it seems that they do not loose on performance because of that.

I want to say acrylic or plexiglass(I did not tried plexiglass yet) is worth a try weather for plano plano or plano convex?

And that middle thing on this The Driver build is something similar that MEM want to try before he disappeared. He told me he can find a way to fit RA on reflector lights and enhance a throw.

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Thanks Dale, that clarifies things, feels strange though, so to reduce spill people could stick something on the GT right in front of the led
Well The Driver scratch my input on making a lens yourself then. Besides I can understand that with this build you want the best you can get Smile

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The_Driver wrote:
My light has this: https://www.flashlightlens.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=UCLp_AR

Why?
Because they are known to be good and they offer custom cut sizes without being really expensive. I also thought they were robust, but…


Are you talking about some other flashlight? Not the maxabeam you just built, right?
The minimum order quantity for a custom size lens is 100, so even though each lens might be cheap it ends up costing hundreds or thousands of dollars.
A custom 100mm lens at $.15 per mm is $15, but with a MOQ of 100 it becomes $1500…
Cheaper to buy something from edmund optics TBH.
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Enderman wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
My light has this: https://www.flashlightlens.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=UCLp_AR

Why?
Because they are known to be good and they offer custom cut sizes without being really expensive. I also thought they were robust, but…


Are you talking about some other flashlight? Not the maxabeam you just built, right?
The minimum order quantity for a custom size lens is 100, so even though each lens might be cheap it ends up costing hundreds or thousands of dollars.
A custom 100mm lens at $.15 per mm is $15, but with a MOQ of 100 it becomes $1500…
Cheaper to buy something from edmund optics TBH.

That MOQ is for the glass lens I think. I’ve ordered a couple of the UCLp in different custom sizes.

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EasyB wrote:

That MOQ is for the glass lens I think. I’ve ordered a couple of the UCLp in different custom sizes.


OOOH I see, didn’t see that thanks Smile
It only lists two acrylic options though, under the custom sizes category…
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luminarium iaculator wrote:
Edmundoptics is serious manufacturer while flashlightlens is distributor of quality stuff? Shipping is something that will kill most of users that are not from USA.

Yes, flashlightlens.com is a distributor of quality stuff. They have been around since 2002 and only sell lenses for flashlights. They, as far as I know, bascially invented the concept of the “UCL” (ultra clear lens) for flashlights. They also sell borosilicate lenses, which can tolerate high temperatures. Many people on CPF used these for hotwire lights for many years.

luminarium iaculator wrote:
So acrylic lenses can have 97% of transmittance and they are probably more durable than glass one.

Well yes and no. They are a bit more durable because they don’t shatter, but my lens cracked in this light. It was my first very big lens. Before I had UCLp lenses up to 75mm.

luminarium iaculator wrote:
My acrylic lenses I use as preccolimator in aspherics seems to have 100% of light transmittance without AR coating??? How I stupidly concluded that? Big Smile Cause without them or with them I have same result on lux meter(with them I have 100% larger beam of course) And sometimes they are even scratched but it seems that they do not loose on performance because of that.

Your light meter might not detect small differences correctly.
The reason is probably something else though.
The precollimator corrects for the imperfect shape of the main lens. Normally you would loose 7-10% of throw because of the pre-collimator. but you don’t loose anything. This means that the pre-collimator is “making it easier” for the lens by making the LED “seem bigger”. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

luminarium iaculator wrote:
I want to say acrylic or plexiglass(I did not tried plexiglass yet) is worth a try weather for plano plano or plano convex?

Well glass will always be better if it is high quality. So you just need to test I guess.

luminarium iaculator wrote:
And that middle thing on this The Driver build is something similar that MEM want to try before he disappeared. He told me he can find a way to fit RA on reflector lights and enhance a throw.

Not quite, it is your guess ;).

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The_Driver wrote:
luminarium iaculator wrote:
And that middle thing on this The Driver build is something similar that MEM want to try before he disappeared. He told me he can find a way to fit RA on reflector lights and enhance a throw.

Not quite, it is your guess ;).

I’m intrigued.

A reflecting collar could work, I think. The increase in luminance would not be as dramatic as when it’s used in a lens light though. In a lens light ~70% of the light is available to “recycle”, but only ~30% is available in a reflector light.

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I am another one thats just say Wow…

Really nice build

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EasyB wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
luminarium iaculator wrote:
And that middle thing on this The Driver build is something similar that MEM want to try before he disappeared. He told me he can find a way to fit RA on reflector lights and enhance a throw.

Not quite, it is your guess ;).

I’m intrigued.

A reflecting collar could work, I think. The increase in luminance would not be as dramatic as when it’s used in a lens light though. In a lens light ~70% of the light is available to “recycle”, but only ~30% is available in a reflector light.

Well 30% in 1,5milion reflector is a lot Wink around 500kcd Smile

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luminarium iaculator wrote:

Well 30% in 1,5milion reflector is a lot Wink around 500kcd Smile


I’m actually thinking maybe reflector is the way to go for ultimate throw.
Lenses have a lot of chromatic aberration which almost certainly reduces the lux.

The problem is that to get the best throw, the LED intensity needs to be extremely high, and the wavien collar does massive improvements to that, over 2x.
In order to use the collar with a reflector it would need to be a recoil reflector, not a forward facing one like in normal flashlights.

Then the problem becomes the LED + collar blocking a bunch of light from the center, which is the most intense light, thanks to the collar in the first place.
.
The solution:
Off axis parabolic mirror!
-no chromatic aberration
-no blockage of light in the middle
-can use a collar to get over 2x LED intensity
.
Problem is that it would cost several thousand dollars Sad but still, I’m pretty sure this is the BEST method of getting maximum throw per diameter (with an unlimited budget).

Thoughts?

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EasyB wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
luminarium iaculator wrote:
And that middle thing on this The Driver build is something similar that MEM want to try before he disappeared. He told me he can find a way to fit RA on reflector lights and enhance a throw.

Not quite, it is your guess ;).

I’m intrigued.

A reflecting collar could work, I think. The increase in luminance would not be as dramatic as when it’s used in a lens light though. In a lens light ~70% of the light is available to “recycle”, but only ~30% is available in a reflector light.

In theory yes, but think about it again. You would be blocking the reflected light of the reflector.

The Maxabeam Reflector used here has a 40mm “dead” hole, when used with LEDs. So that is the maximum diameter which the “reflecting collar” (this name doesn’t really make sense here, it doesn’t go around the LED) could have. The distance of the reflecting collar will then determine, how much light it collects from the LED. It would need to be just far enough away so that the light of the LED can hit even the outer edges of the reflector.

Of course most of the spill light will pass through the reflected light of the reflector and will thus never hit the “reflecting collar”. So in reality there is hardly any gain to be had here, maybe 5-10%.

Enderman’s idea to use an off-axis (main) reflector would work much better because more light can be collected without blocking the beam, but it will never be perfect and the light would probably look rather weird.

luminarium iaculator
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Enderman wrote:
luminarium iaculator wrote:

Well 30% in 1,5milion reflector is a lot Wink around 500kcd Smile


I’m actually thinking maybe reflector is the way to go for ultimate throw.
Lenses have a lot of chromatic aberration which almost certainly reduces the lux.

The problem is that to get the best throw, the LED intensity needs to be extremely high, and the wavien collar does massive improvements to that, over 2x.
In order to use the collar with a reflector it would need to be a recoil reflector, not a forward facing one like in normal flashlights.

Then the problem becomes the LED + collar blocking a bunch of light from the center, which is the most intense light, thanks to the collar in the first place.
.
The solution:
Off axis parabolic mirror!
-no chromatic aberration
-no blockage of light in the middle
-can use a collar to get over 2x LED intensity
.
Problem is that it would cost several thousand dollars Sad but still, I’m pretty sure this is the BEST method of getting maximum throw per diameter (with an unlimited budget).

Thoughts?

MEM from this form(inventor of that wavien collar or RA- reflective aperture how he calls it) wanted to try different approach to led reflectors and he called that RRR

So i will quote him “ “The Recoil Recycled Reflector. Fitting? It is essentially a recoil format, in that the LED directs light directly into a “barrier” that “recoils” the energy back through the phosphor, “recycling” output back out to the “reflector” “

And you are probably right with this mirror idea cause he wanted to fit as I managed to see flat smaller diameter mirror. So his idea should really work but centering the mirror to the right distance to led will be nightmare.

Edit: He mentioned that XPG3 would be most suitable emitter for that because of all unused phosphor surface!

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It is sad MEM vanished, a week after he pmmed me how sad it is when people vanish Sad

The best method also takes effort and cost into consideration IMHO. Half the price 10% less good = better Wink

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The Miller wrote:
It is sad MEM vanished, a week after he pmmed me how sad it is when people vanish Sad

The best method also takes effort and cost into consideration IMHO. Half the price 10% less good = better Wink


I spent $400 on batteries for a flashlight, does it sound like I settle for 10% less good?
Silly Silly Silly
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The_Driver wrote:
EasyB wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
luminarium iaculator wrote:
And that middle thing on this The Driver build is something similar that MEM want to try before he disappeared. He told me he can find a way to fit RA on reflector lights and enhance a throw.

Not quite, it is your guess ;).

I’m intrigued.

A reflecting collar could work, I think. The increase in luminance would not be as dramatic as when it’s used in a lens light though. In a lens light ~70% of the light is available to “recycle”, but only ~30% is available in a reflector light.

In theory yes, but think about it again. You would be blocking the reflected light of the reflector.

The Maxabeam Reflector used here has a 40mm “dead” hole, when used with LEDs. So that is the maximum diameter which the “reflecting collar” (this name doesn’t really make sense here, it doesn’t go around the LED) could have. The distance of the reflecting collar will then determine, how much light it collects from the LED. It would need to be just far enough away so that the light of the LED can hit even the outer edges of the reflector.

Of course most of the spill light will pass through the reflected light of the reflector and will thus never hit the “reflecting collar”. So in reality there is hardly any gain to be had here, maybe 5-10%.

Enderman’s idea to use an off-axis (main) reflector would work much better because more light can be collected without blocking the beam, but it will never be perfect and the light would probably look rather weird.

I think a spherical reflector could be designed to capture all of the spill light for most all reflectors with typical width-to-height ratios.

Below are some rough to-scale sketches of what I am thinking.

The top reflector is a C8 reflector with 38mm active diameter, 32mm height, and ~12mm dead hole diameter. The bottom is a convoy L2 reflector, which is a bit more relatively deep, with 54mm active diameter, 50mm height, and 16mm dead hole diameter.

Let’s constrain the diameter of the spherical reflector section to be the same as the dead hole, so no light from the reflector is blocked. Then the optimal position for the spherical reflector would be as in the sketches, to just allow the LED light to reach the edges of the reflector, but capture all of the would-be spill light. Then the radius of curvature of the spherical reflector is chosen to be the same as the distance separating the LED and spherical reflector, roughly 12 and 18mm in these examples. (I’m approximating the LED as a point in these sketches for simplicity, but I don’t think a finite size LED would completely change the picture.)

I think this makes sense. Have I got something wrong? Cool

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EasyB you’re correct, this is basically the reverse of a wavien collar+lens, however there are several reasons why this would be worse.

1) the main optic diameter will remain large, since the spherical reflector takes light from the middle rather than the sides.
Something I think is very important is not just getting high lux, but getting high lux per diameter of optic.
Anyone can take a big lens or reflector and put it in front of an LED to get big numbers, but the impressive thing is getting BIGGER numbers with the same diameter, or similar numbers with a smaller diameter.

2) The collar the way you drew it would only collect very little light, resulting in an intensity increase much less than 2.2x like the wavien collar does.
In order for it to be equivalent to the wavien collar, your spherical reflector would need to be collecting 120 degrees, and your main reflector would need to be much flatter and collect 30 degrees on either side.
Again, this would result in a large diameter of main optic.

3) You can see in the drawing that the parts of the reflector near the bottom are still very close to the LED.
This will be contributing to a big corona and less-sharp spot projection.
With a lens, all the surface where the light hits is farther away, giving a tighter beam and smaller spot.

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What difference does a “sharp” spot make? More candela is always more candela. And the collar is doing exactly what you say – improve candela for a given optic size.

@easyb
That looks good. I guess I had an error in my thinking.

Just so you guys know – I am not actually interested in this for this light. I actually want the little bit of dark spill light it produces.

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The_Driver wrote:
What difference does a “sharp” spot make? More candela is always more candela. And the collar is doing exactly what you say – improve candela for a given optic size.
.

Yes it would increase the intensity, but my point is that you can get a bigger performance boost by using a different type of main optic when using a collar Smile
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EasyB wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
EasyB wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
luminarium iaculator wrote:
And that middle thing on this The Driver build is something similar that MEM want to try before he disappeared. He told me he can find a way to fit RA on reflector lights and enhance a throw.

Not quite, it is your guess ;).

I’m intrigued.

A reflecting collar could work, I think. The increase in luminance would not be as dramatic as when it’s used in a lens light though. In a lens light ~70% of the light is available to “recycle”, but only ~30% is available in a reflector light.

In theory yes, but think about it again. You would be blocking the reflected light of the reflector.

The Maxabeam Reflector used here has a 40mm “dead” hole, when used with LEDs. So that is the maximum diameter which the “reflecting collar” (this name doesn’t really make sense here, it doesn’t go around the LED) could have. The distance of the reflecting collar will then determine, how much light it collects from the LED. It would need to be just far enough away so that the light of the LED can hit even the outer edges of the reflector.

Of course most of the spill light will pass through the reflected light of the reflector and will thus never hit the “reflecting collar”. So in reality there is hardly any gain to be had here, maybe 5-10%.

Enderman’s idea to use an off-axis (main) reflector would work much better because more light can be collected without blocking the beam, but it will never be perfect and the light would probably look rather weird.

I think a spherical reflector could be designed to capture all of the spill light for most all reflectors with typical width-to-height ratios.

Below are some rough to-scale sketches of what I am thinking.

The top reflector is a C8 reflector with 38mm active diameter, 32mm height, and ~12mm dead hole diameter. The bottom is a convoy L2 reflector, which is a bit more relatively deep, with 54mm active diameter, 50mm height, and 16mm dead hole diameter.

Let’s constrain the diameter of the spherical reflector section to be the same as the dead hole, so no light from the reflector is blocked. Then the optimal position for the spherical reflector would be as in the sketches, to just allow the LED light to reach the edges of the reflector, but capture all of the would-be spill light. Then the radius of curvature of the spherical reflector is chosen to be the same as the distance separating the LED and spherical reflector, roughly 12 and 18mm in these examples. (I’m approximating the LED as a point in these sketches for simplicity, but I don’t think a finite size LED would completely change the picture.)

I think this makes sense. Have I got something wrong? Cool

Another problem (I made the same drawing a few years ago Party ) is that in order to prevent blocking the reflected light from the reflector, the mirror must be small and close to the led, so with short focal length, resulting in a larger reflected image than you want (unfortunately the led die is not infinitely small so the projection is an image, not a point), I assume larger than the die you want to project it back on.
Edit: no, it must be just as large since the source distance is the same as the projection distance. I guess??

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djozz wrote:

Edit: no, it must be just as large since the source distance is the same as the projection distance. I guess??

With a spherical reflector over an LED the image is always the same size as the LED Smile just inverted.
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For wavien collars it doesn’t seem to matter much which size you use (if the LED is small). The luminance gain is almost the same (the small one is more difficult to focus though).

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The Miller wrote:
I might have missed it but a few questions: 1 what is the depth of the reflector /or/ depth led mounted inside the reflector from the top?

I finally remembered to calculate this. It was easier than I thought, all you need is Pythagoras’s theorem for triangles since I already now the diameter of the reflector and the maximum focal length (94mm).

So the depth of the reflector is 73.2mm (distance from lens to focal point, straight down).
The real depth all the way to the bottom I don’t know yet, maybe an additional 15mm.

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Excellent work! Grad

Congratulations! I had not seen it, thanks for sharing Smile

Sorry for my bad English…

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Thanks!

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gaston01 wrote:
Excellent work! Grad

Congratulations! I had not seen it, thanks for sharing Smile

Hi Gaston,

Where is your wavien build? The Driver is making a list of furthest throwing lights in a world and your is also probably in top 20.

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luminarium iaculator wrote:
gaston01 wrote:
Excellent work! Grad

Congratulations! I had not seen it, thanks for sharing Smile

Hi Gaston,

Where is your wavien build? The Driver is making a list of furthest throwing lights in a world and your is also probably in top 20.

Hi luminarium iaculator,

Is an old thread! here it is:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/38863

It would be good to do a ranking Smile

Sorry for my bad English…

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