TK's Emisar D4 review

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hIKARInoob
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Ronin42 wrote:
hIKARInoob wrote:
Ronin42 wrote:
And My personal soap box, I say we need a “just right” sized light between the 4×18650 MeteorM43 and the 16340-18650 D4. I’m thinking 26650 with 6-9 emitters. How much meat and fins and with what type of driver should it be specked with?

How about 3×18650 with 7 emitters? Evil

I really like your idea. I always though that 3×18650 fit much more comfortably in the hand. The number of emitter I leave it to the experts, but 3×3 is 9. Sort of like an in-out burger (for those who don’t know their best seller is a “double-double”) so maybe a triple triple is what is needed for the Goldy Lux light. (pun intended)

I have always thought that 4× 18650 light were just a bit large to actually want to carry (sure it can be done) but out of our flashlight actual carry minutes what percentage is from 4×18650 lights? My hunch is it is out in the long tail of the bell curve.

Not my idea Mr. Ronin. This light will see daylight soon. How soon, that we don’t know yet. This light is the D7, and will be presented after the D1S IIRC. 3×18650 with 7 emitters it is, yay. Party

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Pete7874 wrote:
Ronin42 wrote:
And My personal soap box, I say we need a “just right” sized light between the 4×18650 MeteorM43 and the 16340-18650 D4. I’m thinking 26650 with 6-9 emitters.
Sounds like you’re describing DQG Tiny 26650 III… 2,500 lumen on turbo, and it’ll run at 900 lumen all day long.

Yes But,

Better quality, (DQG) seems to have issues from what Ive read.
Why so small, just a bit longer and maybe real cooling fins and the light does not need to be throttled back.
more emitter choices, it just kills me to buy a new light and then spend a bunch of money and effort to go and change the emitters. better to pay for that up front but only once.

So yes A DQG but with Zebralight/Hank Build quality. Super well thought out (and responsive revisions) TK software not trying to be smallest (why do that?) I say shoot for most usable aka the light we grab whose use falls under the big part of the bell curve. And while I’m at it, in a real sand/earth tone (not gold or almost gold) color.

Rant end

Whew…

(“It’s good that most people can’t remember their previous lives. Otherwise
things would be a lot more complicated than they already are.”
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hIKARInoob wrote:
Ronin42 wrote:
hIKARInoob wrote:
Ronin42 wrote:
And My personal soap box, I say we need a “just right” sized light between the 4×18650 MeteorM43 and the 16340-18650 D4. I’m thinking 26650 with 6-9 emitters. How much meat and fins and with what type of driver should it be specked with?

How about 3×18650 with 7 emitters? Evil

I really like your idea. I always though that 3×18650 fit much more comfortably in the hand. The number of emitter I leave it to the experts, but 3×3 is 9. Sort of like an in-out burger (for those who don’t know their best seller is a “double-double”) so maybe a triple triple is what is needed for the Goldy Lux light. (pun intended)

I have always thought that 4× 18650 light were just a bit large to actually want to carry (sure it can be done) but out of our flashlight actual carry minutes what percentage is from 4×18650 lights? My hunch is it is out in the long tail of the bell curve.

Not my idea Mr. Ronin. This light will see daylight soon. How soon, that we don’t know yet. This light is the D7, and will be presented after the D1S IIRC. 3×18650 with 7 emitters it is, yay. Party

Dear Mr. Noob, (LOL)

I see you know how to say the right things to the boys Beer but how do I know your not just a tease?
Like they say, photos or it did not happen. But If Hank said that a D7 was in the works, now that would be interesting. and is the rumor of 3×18650 settled or is a more moderate/carryable 26650 light possible (Or is that a D6) Part of my reasoning for the 26650 is greater size/weight flexibility. With a sleeve or different tube (yaaa custom tubes like the D4) we can have a light that could run 1× 26650, 18650, 18350, 18500, 14500, 16430.

So the light gets designed with just “enough” mass/fins (seems like the D4 might be a nearly perfect light but short on mass/fins to really use the HP under the hood) and then choose your power/weight configuration of the day.

(“It’s good that most people can’t remember their previous lives. Otherwise
things would be a lot more complicated than they already are.”
Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo)

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Agro wrote:
Why doesn’t it happen every time after a power-reset?

It depends on the timing and whether the driver was in sleep mode when power was disconnected. This is entirely an analog circuitry issue. If the MCU’s charge drains far enough, it will reboot (which counts as a battery change). If it doesn’t drain far enough, it won’t notice the tailcap was loosened. The firmware can’t do anything about that.

Agro wrote:
I’d prefer the light not to remember the ramping direction for too long. Myself, I forget it seconds after I stop ramping. After that I never know what will the light do if I start ramping again.

After using Crescendo for a while, I kinda want different actions to ramp in different directions. Like… hold to ramp up, click-then-hold to ramp down. But that wasn’t something I changed in the D4. It’s something which will have to wait until I have a completely different code foundation written to make multi-click events easier to process.

Agro wrote:
I just got stuck in the momentary mode.

Also not something I changed. It was spec’d that way. My preference would be that momentary mode is permanent so the only way to exit it is to disconnect power. I’d also prefer that it use the memorized level instead of always doing turbo. Maybe in some later UI.

djozz wrote:
an extra way to get to a maximum sustainable mode directly

On a FET+N+1, I’d probably want a reference blink at both channel boundaries. Also, some other input mappings. Like, I prefer battcheck on four clicks.

I suppose I really need to get that new code written. It’s relevant for several projects now, and I’ve been … distracted by other shiny things.

Agro wrote:
TK, are the sources of the thermal control simulator that you wrote available somewhere?

Yes, though it’s a mess. Look in the crescendo directory. I was originally doing this for crescendo before the D4 thing happened.

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charles lin wrote:
the clip is great quality & it fits D4 perfectly well.

Nice. I wonder if RMM might be able to stock something like this. Ideally I’d want something more like the Olight Baton clip, deeper-carry than the B205, but the B205 seems to be the best fit for the D4 out of the ones listed on that page.

Fuzzylogic wrote:
Anyone know if the BLF A6 clip will fit the D4?

Nope, its arms are too wide to fit in the clip groove.

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maukka wrote:
Here’s both cells on turbo with the temp limit set manually to 43°C.

That would be a very helpful type of measurement to have during development. I mostly just had to go by feel. Smile

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PocketBeam wrote:
Hmm… So, if you start at a lower level, what is the highest output it can sustain for a couple minutes? 600 Lumens sounds low? So after two minutes my Zebralight SC600 II would be brighter? I see H2 on the Zebra is about 670 listed output, so maybe around that level?

Take another look at Zebralight’s pages for the recent SC600 models. For example:
http://www.zebralight.com/SC600w-Mk-III-18650-XHP35-Flashlight-Neutral-White_p_173.html

Quote:

High:
  • H1 1126 Lm (PID, approx 2.2 hr)
  • H2
    • 580 Lm (PID, 2.8 hr)
    • 312 Lm (4.3 hr)
    • 139 Lm (12 hr)”

It’s a slightly bigger light, and its highest mode without thermal regulation is 312 lm. So, I’d say the D4’s ~600 lm steady state (at a moderate thermal ceiling) is pretty fair. If you want it brighter though, you can still set the ceiling higher or give it a better heat sink. It’s funny to watch what happens when touching a block of ice to the D4. Even just getting it wet makes a huge difference in the level it stabilizes to.

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Agro wrote:
mostly trival

Some are trivial, others are not. I’m working on some new code to make all these things trivial, and to make new UIs easy to create, but it’s not ready yet.

Maybe I’ll call it “Mostly Harmless”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mostly_Harmless

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ToyKeeper wrote:
Fuzzylogic wrote:
Anyone know if the BLF A6 clip will fit the D4?

Nope, its arms are too wide to fit in the clip groove.

Hmmm…not if i put a grinder to it…

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After getting the different current readings on my 20700 fitted D4, I changed it up some. The tube threads at the head are pretty short, so I moved the copper spacer to the tail end and made the necessary adjustments for it to all work. Now, with a better ground that is consistently repeatable, I’m seeing 17.6A out of the freshly charged Sanyo NCR20700B cell. This allows for 3915.75 lumens out the front, at start. The 219C is a greedy emitter, it’ll take whatever you give it, up to a point.

I charged up and tested one of TomE’s Sanyo NCR20700A cells, wow! 21.14A at the tail for 4391.85 lumens from the Emisar D4 with Nichia 219C emitters. Yowza! Do it get hot? Is it noisy at Mardi Gras? Big Smile

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Ronin42 wrote:
When Light gets X hot (subjective to the hand) then use that temp as the target temp.

That’s basically how the thermal calibration mode works now.

The sensor is not at the emitters though. The sensor is behind the MCPCB, the shelf, and an air gap. Its measurements are rather lagged, which is the main reason it’s difficult to steer. Putting the sensor directly on the MCPCB would make things much easier.

Ronin42 wrote:
Am I crazy?

Yes.

Ronin42 wrote:
say something nice

That was nice. Smile

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Would potting the driver/ cavity with silicone help thermal calibration?

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It is a product of our imagination causing us to fear things that do not presently and may never exist. Fear is a choice.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
maukka wrote:
Here’s both cells on turbo with the temp limit set manually to 43°C.

That would be a very helpful type of measurement to have during development. I mostly just had to go by feel. Smile

Infrared thermometers are cheap and good for various things, like cooking. For longer range measurements, look for a bigger distance to spot ratio. Otherwise 1:1 ones can be had for a few bucks shipped.

https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-infrared-thermometer.html?site=gl...

Thanks for the reply on the SC600. Mine is the Mk II cool white, so H2 is still around 670. No matter though, thanks for the confirmation. Still this D4evil is impressive.

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yay my own D4 finally came, waiting over the weekend was bad at least the wait is worth it. Wink
This things heats up nearly instantly just crazy, the light output is kind of underwhelming first and it is daylight here so i cant test it outside then i ran ceiling bounce test it was at least twice as bright as my Astrolux S41 wow!, i guess the eyes perception doesn’t work in linear manner.
This flashlight is really small i cant imagine it is being that small until you have one in you hand. I like the plain tube, with all the flashlights available in the market this look different and feels smooth, and the green is also beautiful i didn’t regret it. Cant wait for the sun to sets.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
Agro wrote:
mostly trival

Some are trivial, others are not. I’m working on some new code to make all these things trivial, and to make new UIs easy to create, but it’s not ready yet.

Maybe I’ll call it “Mostly Harmless”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mostly_Harmless


I meant that they had little impact on overall user experience, not that they were easy to implement.

rizky_p wrote:
yay my own D4 finally came, waiting over the weekend was bad at least the wait is worth it. Wink
This things heats up nearly instantly just crazy, the light output is kind of underwhelming first and it is daylight here so i cant test it outside then i ran ceiling bounce test it was at least twice as bright as my Astrolux S41 wow!, i guess the eyes perception doesn’t work in linear manner.
This flashlight is really small i cant imagine it is being that small until you have one in you hand. I like the plain tube, with all the flashlights available in the market this look different and feels smooth, and the green is also beautiful i didn’t regret it. Cant wait for the sun to sets.

My initial daytime impression was similar. It just looks better when it’s dark. Maybe because it is so floody?
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Agro wrote:
My initial daytime impression was similar. It just looks better when it’s dark. Maybe because it is so floody?

I am sure it will, what shocked me the most is the heat generated. wow!

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FmC wrote:
Would be great to see the lumen ouput overlaid on these graphs also

Can’t overlay the output on the video, but here it is on the graph.

Interesting how fast the VTC6 cools down because of the immediate stepdown and the Aspire just keeps getting hotter because of less thermal mass with the 18350 tube. I’ll probably measure the temp for a longer time to see where they stabilize.

Now, I can’t be sure which one of my seven Aspires I used on the thermal image, so it might not be the same one. Here’s two of the best samples compared and even they differ greatly because of different internal resistance.

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maukka wrote:
FmC wrote:
Would be great to see the lumen ouput overlaid on these graphs also

Can’t overlay the output on the video, but here it is on the graph.

Interesting how fast the VTC6 cools down because of the immediate stepdown and the Aspire just keeps getting hotter because of less thermal mass with the 18350 tube. I’ll probably measure the temp for a longer time to see where they stabilize.

Can you please try with a Samsung 30Q?

Now, I can’t be sure which one of my seven Aspires I used on the thermal image, so it might not be the same one. Here’s two of the best samples compared and even they differ greatly because of different internal resistance.

!http://i.imgur.com/43cH25z.png!

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Ronin42 wrote:
Dear Mr. Noob, (LOL)

I see you know how to say the right things to the boys Beer but how do I know your not just a tease?
Like they say, photos or it did not happen. But If Hank said that a D7 was in the works, now that would be interesting. and is the rumor of 3×18650 settled or is a more moderate/carryable 26650 light possible (Or is that a D6) Part of my reasoning for the 26650 is greater size/weight flexibility. With a sleeve or different tube (yaaa custom tubes like the D4) we can have a light that could run 1× 26650, 18650, 18350, 18500, 14500, 16430.

So the light gets designed with just “enough” mass/fins (seems like the D4 might be a nearly perfect light but short on mass/fins to really use the HP under the hood) and then choose your power/weight configuration of the day.

Do not worry, for I am a terrible tease Party :

Hank Wang wrote:
Emisar D7 uses 7 LEDs and 3*18650 in parallel, it is scheduled after Emisar D1S.

Post #475: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/20891?page=15

Beer
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i actually prefer the D7 or D6 if exist to run on 20700 instead of 26650. 20700 or 21700 is where the battery technology is currently being pushed further.

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maukka wrote:
FmC wrote:
Would be great to see the lumen ouput overlaid on these graphs also

Can’t overlay the output on the video, but here it is on the graph.

Thank you Beer

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rizky_p wrote:
i actually prefer the D7 or D6 if exist to run on 20700 instead of 26650. 20700 or 21700 is where the battery technology is currently being pushed further.

I wish for 21700 D4. With bored tube 20700 fits already. A slight size increase and it would take 21700. There are no great 21700 batteries available now, but this format really seems like the future.
Battery size increase would give us 5000 mAh with current 18650 tech. And with nearly the same flashlight size.
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bwl123 wrote:
Can you please try with a Samsung 30Q?

Try to make sense of the rainbow, but there’s not much difference in output between good batteries. The individual cell samples are probably just as different.

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rizky_p wrote:
i actually prefer the D7 or D6 if exist to run on 20700 instead of 26650. 20700 or 21700 is where the battery technology is currently being pushed further.

If I remember right, the D7 will have 3 pieces of 18650 batteries and 7 LEDs.
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yeah i second that.

Agro wrote:
I wish for 21700 D4. With bored tube 20700 fits already. A slight size increase and it would take 21700. There are no great 21700 batteries available now, but this format really seems like the future. Battery size increase would give us 5000 mAh with current 18650 tech. And with nearly the same flashlight size.
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I saw a news release the other day where Yuasa in Japan announced a breakthrough in Lithium-ion cells that will be giving much more range to electric cars by 2020 or earlier. Didn’t see specifics… change is coming though.

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hey sorry for the noob question but what does it mean if you hit turbo, get three distinct blinks and then get low? was it trying to tell me the cell didn’t have the amperage or the voltage to maintain the output? the cell was a GA and have 3.5v upon hitting the charger

i was able to take the tailcap off and replace it and it stopped doing it

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At 3.5V, the GA probably doesn’t have enough oomph to run turbo… it sags and kicks in low voltage protection.

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My XP-G2 S4 5D D4 arrived today very happy with the tint :

D4 XP-G2 5D (left) X5 Nichia 219C 5000K (right)

EDIT : Changed the emitters to Nichia 219C 4000K CRI92


D4Nichia 219C 4000K CRI92 (left) X5 Nichia 219C 5000K (right)

Now it’s perfect

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The family should know better than to leave me home alone… made Daniel play with Shadow and spent a little more time on the lathe, dressing up the D4. Now it’s Baylor University colors and looks pretty sharp! Big Smile

I cut brass rings to either space it (at the tail cap, cut a new o-ring groove so it maintains water proofness) or simply at the top, for aesthetics. For a very brief moment I considered giving it to my brother, with his season tickets to Baylor home games, but well, naaaaaaa! Silly

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