Lumileds Luxeon V, test of a 4000K 70CRI emitter

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The_Driver
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Multiple dies would explain the very low Vf of these LEDs. It’s much easier that way.

djozz
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Marc E wrote:
djozz wrote:
Here is a quick picture of my C8F with Luxeon V’s . You can see that one is only lighted half. I did not know that one-quarter and three-quarter were also possible. You can not see individual dies though, I do not know how the led is built up.

Is that definitely the die failing and not the dome separating from the die?

I have had more than a few doing this, and the shadow over the led was always the same size: about half the led not lighted.
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djozz wrote:
Marc E wrote:
djozz wrote:
Here is a quick picture of my C8F with Luxeon V’s . You can see that one is only lighted half. I did not know that one-quarter and three-quarter were also possible. You can not see individual dies though, I do not know how the led is built up.

Is that definitely the die failing and not the dome separating from the die?

I have had more than a few doing this, and the shadow over the led was always the same size: about half the led not lighted.

That’s fair enough. It’s just that as i was unknowingly tearing the dome off an XHP50.2 it looked like one quadrant was failing, then that three were failing with a similarity to your picture.
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Physically it’s clearly one die (see page 5) but it seems internally / electrically it’s 4. This is from the STEP file provided by Lumileds, you can’t see it in this projection but these pads are on the top plane of the substrate.

edit: see here, same plane as the ESD diode pads

Scallywag
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kikkoman wrote:
Physically it's clearly one die (see page 5) but it seems internally / electrically it's 4. This is from the STEP file provided by Lumileds, you can't see it in this projection but these pads are on the top plane of the substrate.

Cool! Thanks for posting this.

I hadn't read through this whole thread, but I just skimmed most of it. I'll definitely limit my remaining Luxeon Vs to below 6A (assumed in the case of the D4) to prevent killing them. None have seen one-on-one time with a FET yet, so they should all be fine.

EDC Rotation: ZL SC62 | Jaxman E2L XP-G2 5A | Purple S2+ XPL-HI U6-3A | D4 w/ Luxeon V | RRT-01 
EagTac D25C Ti | DQG Slim AA Ti | UF-T1 by CRX | Olight S1 | Klarus Mini One Ti
L6 XHP70.2 P2 4000K FET+7135 | Jaxman M8 | MF02 | Jaxman Z1 CULNM1.TG | Blue S2+ w/ ML Special
In-progress: Supfire M6 3xXHP50.2 
Others: Nitecore EC23 | Nebo Twyst | Streamlight ProTac 1AA | TerraLux LightStar 100

Tom E
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Thanks djozz! Ok - now I gotta take a closer look at mine - it's bug'n me now...

Tom E
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This is a good look'n V:

This is a bad one in my modded OTR M3:

Up closer:

So out of 4 lights, 2 look like the lower one and 2 look like the first one. But one of the LEDs that look good is reading much lower amps then it used to.

Mike C
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Tom E wrote:
Again, though everyone knew this?

I certainly didn’t. It’s good to know as I have a few of them I haven’t yet put to use.
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Luxeon V has extremely low Vf so I will presume that direct drive is the culprit, and that such degradation might not occur even when overdriven as long as the LED does not see unregulated high voltages.

djozz
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But from my experience, the failing Luxeon V’s is not a one-to-one result from overcurrent. The failing Luxeon V in my C8S was already the third one failing, after three reflows (on the challenging triple 3535 board Facepalm ) and again a failing led I called it a day. And from the output (a bit over 4000 lumen when all 3 leds still worked) it is drawing under 15A (I could measure actual current again) so not really extreme for the V. On the other hand I have one Luxeon V in a VG10 with BLF-A6 driver and all bypasses doing over 2000 lumen, and still going strong!

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I have wondered if, for super low Vf LEDS, high cell voltages may induce damage even if the continuously delivered current is not excessive. Also, LEDs are sensitive to reflow temps and duration, maybe some more than others, and possibly even moisture content as per the datasheets.

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My little OTR M3, though modded to FET+1+bank, is running on a 16340 so can't achieve high amps, still damaged the LED. There may be something else goin on.

djozz
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Hoop wrote:
I have wondered if, for super low Vf LEDS, high cell voltages may induce damage even if the continuously delivered current is not excessive. Also, LEDs are sensitive to reflow temps and duration, maybe some more than others, and possibly even moisture content as per the datasheets.

At least I do pay a bit of attention to my reflows, not in a frying pan on the stove but on a “regulated” heatblock that does not exceed 240 degreesC and with the board sitting on a separate small piece of aluminium placed together on the heat block so that the heating up and cooling down is not as instant as with the bare board on the heat block. Of course this still does not follow the reflow-instructions.
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Based on failure reports, I noticed that all problematic LED were from earliest batch, which is possibly some kind of pre-production batch, and they could suffer from "child diseases", maybe Philips was in rush and wanted to release several sample reels ASAP, so it could be some kind of manufacturing defect. I never seen that failure on new batches.

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led4power wrote:
Based on failure reports, I noticed that all problematic LED were from earliest batch, which is possibly some kind of pre-production batch, and they could suffer from "child diseases", maybe Philips was in rush and wanted to release several sample reels ASAP, so it could be some kind of manufacturing defect. I never seen that failure on new batches.

Very interesting! Who wants to try to fry one, for science?

EDC Rotation: ZL SC62 | Jaxman E2L XP-G2 5A | Purple S2+ XPL-HI U6-3A | D4 w/ Luxeon V | RRT-01 
EagTac D25C Ti | DQG Slim AA Ti | UF-T1 by CRX | Olight S1 | Klarus Mini One Ti
L6 XHP70.2 P2 4000K FET+7135 | Jaxman M8 | MF02 | Jaxman Z1 CULNM1.TG | Blue S2+ w/ ML Special
In-progress: Supfire M6 3xXHP50.2 
Others: Nitecore EC23 | Nebo Twyst | Streamlight ProTac 1AA | TerraLux LightStar 100

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I bought mine so long ago, can't recall from where - I know I bought some MCPCB's from L4P, but not sure bout the LED's -- need to track back.

KevinZA1988
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Tom E wrote:

This is a good look’n V:



This is a bad one in my modded OTR M3:



Up closer:



So out of 4 lights, 2 look like the lower one and 2 look like the first one. But one of the LEDs that look good is reading much lower amps then it used to.

That’s exactly what happened to my direct driven Luxeon V’s.

Astrolux SC01, BLF Q8, BLF A6, BLF FW3A, BLF FW3C, Convoy L2, Convoy L6, Convoy C8+ , Convoy S3, Convoy M21A, Convoy S11, Emisar D4, Fireflies E07, Jaxman E2L, Lumintop EDC18, Olight S1R Baton II special edition series, S2R Baton II, Nitecore HC65, Olight H1R Nova.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaJaDv4V838AEJf39

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kikkoman wrote:
Physically it’s clearly one die (see page 5) but it seems internally / electrically it’s 4. This is from the STEP file provided by Lumileds, you can’t see it in this projection but these pads are on the top plane of the substrate.

edit: see here, same plane as the ESD diode pads

!https://i.gyazo.com/abb2aa672448d803d41cb40de5b1188f.png!

Thanks, this makes sense now. My observations were “4 dies” when looking very carefully at the edges of the phosphorus around the edge of the LED.

Astrolux SC01, BLF Q8, BLF A6, BLF FW3A, BLF FW3C, Convoy L2, Convoy L6, Convoy C8+ , Convoy S3, Convoy M21A, Convoy S11, Emisar D4, Fireflies E07, Jaxman E2L, Lumintop EDC18, Olight S1R Baton II special edition series, S2R Baton II, Nitecore HC65, Olight H1R Nova.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaJaDv4V838AEJf39

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Do anyone know if there are plan to make different colour temp for luxeon v? I hope that it will be similar to luxeon v2 but it seem like luxeon v is different and only has 4000k temperature?

led4power
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4000K,5000K,5700K,6500K is what datasheet says, I have 4000K and just recently got 5700K (it should be great combination for tint mixing to get 4800K and even more rosy tint):

https://led4power.com/?s=l1v1&post_type=product

 

KevinZA1988
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Kaidomain has the 5000K and 6500K

Astrolux SC01, BLF Q8, BLF A6, BLF FW3A, BLF FW3C, Convoy L2, Convoy L6, Convoy C8+ , Convoy S3, Convoy M21A, Convoy S11, Emisar D4, Fireflies E07, Jaxman E2L, Lumintop EDC18, Olight S1R Baton II special edition series, S2R Baton II, Nitecore HC65, Olight H1R Nova.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaJaDv4V838AEJf39

Tom E
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led4power wrote:

4000K,5000K,5700K,6500K is what datasheet says, I have 4000K and just recently got 5700K (it should be great combination for tint mixing to get 4800K and even more rosy tint):

https://led4power.com/?s=l1v1&post_type=product

 

L4P - looks like your V's are a higher flux bin as well? Are both the 4000K and 5700K both bin W?

Also, are you sure these new batches last longer, or can take the higher amps than earlier batches? If I knew they would last at high amps now, I'd buy a few from you.

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I could throw one in a FET light to test, but it was purchased April 2018. My D4's quad board was purchased in August. Not sure when the bin transition took place.

 

...My Thorfire VG10S has a dead driver anyway, and a Luxeon V already under the reflector. Maybe I'll go do that soon, can't remember if I have any spare FET drivers in the right size though. Plenty of Blue springs for it though!

EDC Rotation: ZL SC62 | Jaxman E2L XP-G2 5A | Purple S2+ XPL-HI U6-3A | D4 w/ Luxeon V | RRT-01 
EagTac D25C Ti | DQG Slim AA Ti | UF-T1 by CRX | Olight S1 | Klarus Mini One Ti
L6 XHP70.2 P2 4000K FET+7135 | Jaxman M8 | MF02 | Jaxman Z1 CULNM1.TG | Blue S2+ w/ ML Special
In-progress: Supfire M6 3xXHP50.2 
Others: Nitecore EC23 | Nebo Twyst | Streamlight ProTac 1AA | TerraLux LightStar 100

led4power
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Tom E wrote:

led4power wrote:

4000K,5000K,5700K,6500K is what datasheet says, I have 4000K and just recently got 5700K (it should be great combination for tint mixing to get 4800K and even more rosy tint):

https://led4power.com/?s=l1v1&post_type=product

 

L4P - looks like your V's are a higher flux bin as well? Are both the 4000K and 5700K both bin W?

Also, are you sure these new batches last longer, or can take the higher amps than earlier batches? If I knew they would last at high amps now, I'd buy a few from you.

W flux bin is the most common one, actually I've never seen any flux bin other than W, KD are the same regardless the different CCT. Vf bin is also F on all recent reels.

Initial samples were G Vf bin, and reported "1/3" failures were only from that first batch, no one reported problems after that.

It might be worth mentioning that I've seen that exact failure on my own (on that batch), it was not max. current related, but it appeared immediately after reflow.

I realized that after one of the LEDs had that problem after soldering 4pcs on quad L1V1 board. I replaced that one, put new one, and after reflow the LED on the other position failed this time, so it was thermally related issue (my guess is problem with die glue - too little on one side of chip), not current related.

Again, I've never seen even a single failure (and no complaints from customers) after that 1st batch of 4000K LEDs.

Max. "usable" current form Luxeon V is about 9A, so it would be good to stay below that when DD drivers are used.

 

KevinZA1988
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led4power wrote:

Tom E wrote:

led4power wrote:

4000K,5000K,5700K,6500K is what datasheet says, I have 4000K and just recently got 5700K (it should be great combination for tint mixing to get 4800K and even more rosy tint):


https://led4power.com/?s=l1v1&post_type=product


 


L4P – looks like your V’s are a higher flux bin as well? Are both the 4000K and 5700K both bin W?


Also, are you sure these new batches last longer, or can take the higher amps than earlier batches? If I knew they would last at high amps now, I’d buy a few from you.



W flux bin is the most common one, actually I’ve never seen any flux bin other than W, KD are the same regardless the different CCT. Vf bin is also F on all recent reels.


Initial samples were G Vf bin, and reported “1/3” failures were only from that first batch, no one reported problems after that.


It might be worth mentioning that I’ve seen that exact failure on my own (on that batch), it was not max. current related, but it appeared immediately after reflow.


I realized that after one of the LEDs had that problem after soldering 4pcs on quad L1V1 board. I replaced that one, put new one, and after reflow the LED on the other position failed this time, so it was thermally related issue (my guess is problem with die glue – too little on one side of chip), not current related.


Again, I’ve never seen even a single failure (and no complaints from customers) after that 1st batch of 4000K LEDs.


Max. “usable” current form Luxeon V is about 9A, so it would be good to stay below that when DD drivers are used.


 

So it’s safe to say I can use it at 7A high mode om one of your LD-4 drivers?

Astrolux SC01, BLF Q8, BLF A6, BLF FW3A, BLF FW3C, Convoy L2, Convoy L6, Convoy C8+ , Convoy S3, Convoy M21A, Convoy S11, Emisar D4, Fireflies E07, Jaxman E2L, Lumintop EDC18, Olight S1R Baton II special edition series, S2R Baton II, Nitecore HC65, Olight H1R Nova.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaJaDv4V838AEJf39

led4power
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Yes, it's similar to SST-40 when it comes to max. ratings.

KevinZA1988
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So, has any one tried the newer batch on direct drive yet? If so, what current can be expected of good gold plated springs like the ones from led4power.com?

Astrolux SC01, BLF Q8, BLF A6, BLF FW3A, BLF FW3C, Convoy L2, Convoy L6, Convoy C8+ , Convoy S3, Convoy M21A, Convoy S11, Emisar D4, Fireflies E07, Jaxman E2L, Lumintop EDC18, Olight S1R Baton II special edition series, S2R Baton II, Nitecore HC65, Olight H1R Nova.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaJaDv4V838AEJf39

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