Test/review of LiitoKala INR26650-50A 5000mAh (Black)

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Overmind
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Tesla chose the 21700 because the lack of top tier manufacturers making mass 26650s. I think current production rate of the top manufacturers exceeds 1B 18650 cells / year, while 21700s were already produced in enough quantity for power tools and the additional volume can count a lot.
As for the cooling, from a pure airflow perspective, everything should be fine if properly constructed. Of course, cooling a thinner element is easier than cooling a thick one, but the the heat generated for a similar power drain will be higher for the thinner cell, so no real gain there.
I don’t know if Tesla stated the maximum temperature that is allowed for the used batteries, but I tested an electric car with custom 26650-based pack and there was no overheating heating whatsoever after a 25Km continuous run, same as for Samsung Q cells, while for Sony V3s there was some heating but within the recommended spec limits of the cells.

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Tesla and Panasonic make their own battery. Why would they care if others make 26650 or not?

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Overmind
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What do you mean ?
Didn’t the S/X used Panasonic 18650s ?
Yes, they can build their own like for model 3 but that would not be viable for mass production.

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JasonWW your #211 post is a mess.

PLB makes 26650s, and while their actual market is a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ to me, for their 50A and 55A cells this is what they claim:

 

PLB INR26650-55A 3.6V 5500mAh lithium ion cell is high energy li-ion battery for power application, which has been passed The National Mandatory Inspection and widely used in electric motorcycle, elctric tricycle, lead acid replacement, AGV, power station, ESS, PV street light and so on with high safety on design, high consistency, high reliability, and long cycle life on performance. -> Here.

INR26650-50A 3.6V 5Ah NiCoMn(NCM) battery cell for Motorcycle and Tricycle has been successfully qualified with The National Mandatory Inspection , which widely used in electric buses, electric logistics trucks, electric special vehicles, power station, energy storage system and so on with high security, high consistency and high reliability characteristics. -> There.

 

It looks like PLB is heavily focused on LiFePO4 development, and they're in China. Don't know how much improvement is to be expected. They also definitively won't be in the media.

Tesla decided to foster development of a new cell size just because that fitted their interests. They didn't have any interest in 26650 development, that wouldn't have allowed them to file new patents and blah blah blah.

Also, Tesla isn't the word of God. 

 

Thu, 10/03/2019 - 12:37

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Overmind wrote:
What do you mean ?
Didn’t the S/X used Panasonic 18650s ?
Yes, they can build their own like for model 3 but that would not be viable for mass production.

Yes, early vehicles used the Panasonic 18650B 3400mah, but several years ago they were evaluating new sizes and started building the Gigafactory. They started out with the plan to build 20700 and then decided 21700 would be better. Once they built their own factory they don’t care about 26650 availability.

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Barkuti wrote:

JasonWW your last post is a mess.



I don’t think it’s a mess at all.

Maybe you mean post 211? I still have not heard of any OEM vehicles (like passenger cars) using the 26650. Of course, I am not in this field so there is a lot I don’t know.

PS, those quotes from PLB sound like typical marketing speak to sell batteries. Are they saying their cells can be used for those things or that they are used for those things. There is a big difference. I would love to learn about OEM vehicles using the 26650.

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I think car OEMs will end up using LiFePo4s. Because of the covered temperature range.

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The_Fat_Controller wrote:
Can i ask where you guys are buying the Genuine Liitokala 26650 cells, the ones that don’t turn inside out when you charge them?

I thought the Liitokala direct store on aliexpress was the one but it seems there are a few others such as the flag ship Liitokala store etc

www.liito-kala.com has a link to store 133859, LiitoKala Official Flagship Store ( liitokala.aliexpress.com ).

Store 133859 sold me 4 blue “liito-kala” 26650s that tested well below advertised capacity. I used two different testers and checked 4 batteries. I’ve been using them and they all OK, but not as good as the black and gold LiittoKala cells I bought elsewhere.

The sticker on the pink 21700s from store 133859 has links for both LiitoKala websites!

Is 133859 selling LiitoKala knock-offs? Are they a different (mainland vs. HK) division? I don’t know. I’m not buying anything else from store 133859.

http://liitokala.com.cn links to AliExpress store 217753, liitokala Official Store ( liitokalahongkong.aliexpress.com ) Store 217753 sold me black and gold 26650 Lii-50A that meet advertised specs. As far as I can tell they are the same as the ones tested at the top of this thread. That was several years ago though. If I want more LiitoKala 26650’s I’d buy from them again.

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JasonWW wrote:
Barkuti wrote:

JasonWW your last post is a mess.

I would love to learn about OEM vehicles using the 26650.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that some China made EV motor cycles or utility vehicles use 26650 based packs. The cells are pretty cheap per Wh.

Passenger cars other than Tesla use prismatic cells.

For example here is the Chinese made SAIC / CATL battery used in the MG eZS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knmqqB35yAQ

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Andrew_Debbie wrote:
The_Fat_Controller wrote:
Can i ask where you guys are buying the Genuine Liitokala 26650 cells, the ones that don’t turn inside out when you charge them?

I thought the Liitokala direct store on aliexpress was the one but it seems there are a few others such as the flag ship Liitokala store etc

www.liito-kala.com has a link to store 133859, LiitoKala Official Flagship Store ( liitokala.aliexpress.com ).

Store 133859 sold me 4 blue “liito-kala” 26650s that tested well below advertised capacity. I used two different testers and checked 4 batteries. I’ve been using them and they all OK, but not as good as the black and gold LiittoKala cells I bought elsewhere.

The sticker on the pink 21700s from store 133859 has links for both LiitoKala websites!

Is 133859 selling LiitoKala knock-offs? Are they a different (mainland vs. HK) division? I don’t know. I’m not buying anything else from store 133859.

http://liitokala.com.cn links to AliExpress store 217753, liitokala Official Store ( liitokalahongkong.aliexpress.com ) Store 217753 sold me black and gold 26650 Lii-50A that meet advertised specs. As far as I can tell they are the same as the ones tested at the top of this thread. That was several years ago though. If I want more LiitoKala 26650’s I’d buy from them again.

Thanks, I have placed an order with that store.. ive since seen at least 5 more ali stores purporting to Liitokala affiliated
You have
Liitokala Factory store
Liitokala Direct store
Liitokala Battery Charger Officiail Store
Liitokala OfficialNO.2 Store (lol at this one)
Liitokala Official Flagship Store

I ordered from
Store No.217753 both 26650 & 21700

Sadly before i realised the game i had already ordered some from Store No.1823237 (liitokala Direct Store) Pretty sure I’ll be getting screwed on those.

Neither order has arrived yet but i will report capacity when they do

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JasonWW wrote:

Maybe you mean post 211? I still have not heard of any OEM vehicles (like passenger cars) using the 26650. Of course, I am not in this field so there is a lot I don't know.

PS, those quotes from PLB sound like typical marketing speak to sell batteries. …

Yes #211.

PLB must sell a lot for the inland market. I do not really know, but they manufacture the 50A and 55A cells and these are very easy to purchase everywhere in AliExpress (with different rewraps, of course) and Alibaba (example). This means they're in full production, and certainly they're not mainly manufactured to fill the shelves of the LiitoKala seller gang so I am sure large volumes of PLB cells go somewhere else. 

The_Fat_Controller wrote:

Sadly before i realised the game i had already ordered some from Store No.1823237 (liitokala Direct Store) Pretty sure I'll be getting screwed on those.

If I were to purchase from them I wouldn't be screwed, this is a sure thing. And I've never lost a dispute.

I think you'll get good cells. Wink 

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Andrew_Debbie wrote:
The_Fat_Controller wrote:
Can i ask where you guys are buying the Genuine Liitokala 26650 cells, the ones that don’t turn inside out when you charge them?

I thought the Liitokala direct store on aliexpress was the one but it seems there are a few others such as the flag ship Liitokala store etc

www.liito-kala.com has a link to store 133859, LiitoKala Official Flagship Store ( liitokala.aliexpress.com ).

Store 133859 sold me 4 blue “liito-kala” 26650s that tested well below advertised capacity. I used two different testers and checked 4 batteries. I’ve been using them and they all OK, but not as good as the black and gold LiittoKala cells I bought elsewhere.


I guess it should be pointed out that only the 5000mah black and gold are the guaranteed ones. The blue 5100mah are and have never been so great.

The older blue 5000mah were great, but they seemed to stop selling them. Now we only have the black and gold.

I have not heard of copied 21700 LiitoKala yet so I think that cell is also good.

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Overmind wrote:
I think car OEMs will end up using LiFePo4s. Because of the covered temperature range.

And increased fire/explosion safety. Though they aren’t Li-Titanate-level of cycles, I’m told that LiFePO4 offers more cycles than standard cells. Most of the people here know far more about batteries than I, but I think that LiFePO4 also reduces the cobalt demand as well, though obviously with reduced energy density. They are no panacea.

Actual chemistries today are more complex than I understand, though.

Also, LiFePO4 can be overcharged to a surprising degree without damage, which is quite different than our standard chemistries. From what I’ve seen, LiFePO4 cells could be safely charged to 4.2V. There is no capacity advantage when doing so, however, as the cell is effectively saturated by 3.6V with the bulk of the charge achieved even by 3.4V.

This is interesting when replacing flooded lead-acid batteries, as a 4S pack is fully charged by 14.4V and should handle up to 16.8V without damage. Regulation is still needed, however, as alternators can output up to 18V when extremely cold. This wouldn’t damage the pack within the few seconds that this usually occurs, but regulator failure could harm the pack. At least it shouldn’t explode or burn.

RobAllen

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Barkuti wrote:

If I were to purchase from them I wouldn’t be screwed, this is a sure thing. And I’ve never lost a dispute.


I think you’ll get good cells. Wink 

Hope so i seem to be amassing a collection of 26650 hosts with little in the way of cells besides some Ultrafake(ultrafire) 6000mah

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Ok Orders arrived from Store No. 217753

26650

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The_Fat_Controller wrote:
Ok Orders arrived from Store No. 217753

26650


Which blue ones? The blue/cyan 5000mah are older, but good cells. The blue 5100mah seem to be a random variety of 26650 they get from different places. Their capacity measurements from battery chargers are all over the place. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower.

I’m guessing by the overly high reading it’s the 5100mah.

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Black & gold they are marked up 5000mah I ran a full discharge & recharge cycle

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JasonWW,

The_Fat_Controller wrote:

26650

First of all, that measurement isn't a test. It is a standard charge measurement, which The_Fat_Controller initiated with the cell discharged to some point. Question

JasonWW wrote:
… The blue 5100mah seem to be a random variety of 26650 they get from different places. Their capacity measurements from battery chargers are all over the place. …

Power Long Battery is not the only manufacturer of good 26650s, check this old Test/Review of LiitoKala INR 26650 5000mAh cells @ CandlePowerForums:

 

 

On the other hand, analyzing chargers are far from being laboratory equipment. They measure differently in all their slots. I myself have taken the time to properly average my Lii-500 measurements and obtain compensatory channel indexes. On top of this I believe it measures a little bit below Henrik's setup.

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Thats correct i just discharged them fully and then recharged… not sure how accurate it is but the other 26650 i have read just 3000mah this way

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The_Fat_Controller wrote:
Black & gold they are marked up 5000mah I ran a full discharge & recharge cycle

Good to hear.

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Barkuti wrote:


JasonWW wrote:
… The blue 5100mah seem to be a random variety of 26650 they get from different places. Their capacity measurements from battery chargers are all over the place. …

Power Long Battery is not the only manufacturer of good 26650s, check this old Test/Review of LiitoKala INR 26650 5000mAh cells @ CandlePowerForums:


2 different cells. I’m talking about the newer 5100mah, your talking about the older 5000mah.

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Heh! Do you think there's just a single  LiitoKala?  You are wrong if so:

 

The first LiitoKala with a website I found, the one which once dared to promote themselves effrontery claiming their CEO Ashley Zhang (check here) was

 

 

… Elsa Pataky, is http://www.liitokala.com.cn, and at the bottom of their front page you'll find a link to LiitoKala® AliExpress store 217753.

 

A second one owns http://liito-kala.com, and at the bottom of their front page you'll find links to https://liitokala.aliexpress.com/ (AliExpress store number 133859) and to Amazon US.

 

The Chinese and their laws… 

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Not so impressed by the Yellow 21700 from the same store. drained and recharged twice both show around 4100mah

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The_Fat_Controller wrote:
Not so impressed by the Yellow 21700 from the same store. drained and recharged twice both show around 4100mah

Bunch of reckless pirates , they probably wrapped some Lishen LS21700SA (LiitoKala Lii-40A) cells with 5000mAh rated wraps.

Open a dispute and kick their arses. I would get a half refund 100% for sure.

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I don’t think you’re right this time. The accumulators are not the same! The measured capacity is really 5000mAh. I also opened a Liitokala dispute over the Samsung 30Q. I won the dispute. I was refunded 50% of the amount paid. These batteries (versions 4000 and 5000) will not be the same. I have the original version 4000 and a new version 5000 on the way. After delivery I measure and compare them.





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The_Fat_Controller wrote:
Not so impressed by the Yellow 21700 from the same store. drained and recharged twice both show around 4100mah

!{width:50%}https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/UTB85LjlrtnJXKJkSaiyq6AhwXXaq/2019-LiitoKala-...!

What does the bottom of the battery look like?

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Petr J.][quote wrote:
What does the bottom of the battery look like?


Do you have a link to where you ordered the real 5000ah ones?

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The above comment was really unnecessary, I am as right as I can be from this side of the story (and it can also be good to turn left LoL!). The_Fat_Controller didn't posted actual photos of his cells until half an hour ago, he just made a comment. He also didn't say if he measured capacity with a NOR test, and he should because if the cells score low that is valid evidence to win a dispute.

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I’ll measure my cells. The original Lii 40 and the new Lii 50. On the Opus BT 3100, this is only an indicative measurement, but will show if there is a significant capacity difference.

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I will run Nor test as Barkuti suggested.. and see if it confirms the same result
(I may be some time)

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