[Modding] Astrolux MF01 --> OSH park NarsilM

97 posts / 0 new
Last post

Pages

mizou51
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 12:06
Posts: 293
Location: France
[Modding] Astrolux MF01 --> OSH park NarsilM

Hello

I’m a big fan of the narsilM UI and i asked LEXEL to get a driver for me.
I changed the LED wires from 24AWG to 22 AWG (i think 20awg is really hard to fit)
I changed the driver for a OSH park NArsilM
Next thing to do is bypassing the spring from the battery pack

My ceiling bounce test for 219C version of the original MF01 give me 450 Lux
My ceiling bounce test with modded driver give me 600 Lux.

I gain output and the ramping function !
So great mod i recommand you the same.
The only drawback is that you loose led switch for battery level…but i don’t really care because driver is equipped with LVP.






JIGHEADWORM
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 16 hours ago
Joined: 07/02/2017 - 18:04
Posts: 246
Location: Tennessee

Nice i got one being built by lexel now.Did you hook switch light back up?

mizou51
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 12:06
Posts: 293
Location: France

hi

no i did not connect the side led to the Br pad of the driver.

yuhsin91123
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 7 hours ago
Joined: 09/29/2017 - 13:18
Posts: 290
Location: Taiwan, NY LI,

Can somebody make a video on how to do this lol. I also have MF01 coming my way and I want to mod it to produce more lights and better UI too

mizou51
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 12:06
Posts: 293
Location: France

hello

that’s easy ! You need to solder the 2 wires from the side switch :white and black
The green and red are left unused.
Then you solder the grey wires from the LEDS (positive) and blacks (negative)

Nothing more to do !

yuhsin91123
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 7 hours ago
Joined: 09/29/2017 - 13:18
Posts: 290
Location: Taiwan, NY LI,

mizou51 wrote:
hello

that’s easy ! You need to solder the 2 wires from the side switch :white and black
The green and red are left unused.
Then you solder the grey wires from the LEDS (positive) and blacks (negative)

Nothing more to do !

As a super noob with flashlights and tools…. I’ve never used solder before.
Could be the picture look like it has a lot going on…

Can you please make some pictures in some more details? (ex. w wires from side switch: what should they look like after solder together)
Sorry for asking if the question is kinda dumb… Crying

mizou51
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 12:06
Posts: 293
Location: France

Comparaison with MT07S / MF01 / L6



stock MT07S on turbo :


Video coming (uploading…)

yuhsin91123
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 7 hours ago
Joined: 09/29/2017 - 13:18
Posts: 290
Location: Taiwan, NY LI,

Yea I’m sold… that MF01 Nichia after mod is crazy!!
So you got new wires yourself not from Lexel. Correct?

Question, anyone know if this harms the LED or shorten it’s life? Or as long as we keep it cool and don’t boost it back on after step-downs we should be good?

Jtm94
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 1 day ago
Joined: 02/22/2017 - 05:08
Posts: 392
Location: Pennsylvania

So I have an MF01 and was considering this. Is the brass driver ring that the battery tube contacts soldered to the stock driver? If so how did you remove it?

What settings did you choose for your driver?

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany

the current is divided through 9 emitters 2 in series
so about 2.5A per LED

you have per emitter a relative low current compared to single LED builds

even if most people does not believe it if the LED stays cool a higher current it ages less than on normal current
and on low modes it ages a lot faster than on normal current
so moonlight is a real lifetime killer for LEDs

This is also why you often find minimum current requirements in datasheets to get to the right lifetime

led4power
led4power's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 12/29/2012 - 09:48
Posts: 1188
Location: Croatia,EU

Lexel wrote:
... most people does not believe it if the LED stays cool a higher current it ages less than on normal current and on low modes it ages a lot faster than on normal current so moonlight is a real lifetime killer for LEDs...

LEDs age a lot faster on low currents? Any link/reference that supports this funny statement?

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany
led4power wrote:

Lexel wrote:
… most people does not believe it if the LED stays cool a higher current it ages less than on normal current and on low modes it ages a lot faster than on normal current so moonlight is a real lifetime killer for LEDs…

LEDs age a lot faster on low currents? Any link/reference that supports this funny statement?

It is physics, the current protects the active zone from degradation

Watch this video


The picture before it plays shows the aging with current, the solid line shows longer life for 350mA, while the other for 100mA shows less for the same LED temperature, a DTP star keeps the LED a lot cooler than conventional cheap aluminum stars that are used in most application to save costs

There are tests that clearly show that if the LED keeps cool enough on the LED die a higher current makes in fact the LED age less than on lower current
LED ages from a process that is mainly rapidly increased at low currents like moonlight or low the LED can age 10 times faster than on full current

I watched this video multiple times

And I am native german, so I did understand well why low currents are far worse than heat to kill LEDs

The current protects the very thin active light emitting zone from electrically defective spots to migrate into it from the surrounding material, this active zone is a lot thinner than the rest so migration is a huge issue
Of course heat also increases the migration of electrically defective spots

On our CC moonlight flashlight the LED can age over 10 times faster than on max. rated current
You see the plot at 16:00 of the video
And that plot shows the LED running on 3% of its normal current
Our moonlights and firefliey modes on CC lights get below 0.1%

The odd thing is if we get good cooling an overdriven LED ages slower than at rated current when they got the same junction temperature

FreeMagenta
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 5 days ago
Joined: 10/12/2014 - 12:50
Posts: 175
Location: Poland

Ok, so what about PWM modes? if we have 1A with 0,1% duty cycle, will it cause LED to degrade 10 times faster as well?…

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany

Pwm modes at LED nominal currents will be fine for lifetime
For XPL this means 0.35-3A on a cheap star if the junction stays within specification temperature limit

Basically the cooler it runs and the more current it gets the less it ages

Flying Luminosity
Flying Luminosity's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 14 min ago
Joined: 09/12/2017 - 13:33
Posts: 448
Location: UK

Following

mizou51
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 12:06
Posts: 293
Location: France

thanks lexel for the details. interesting indeed ! i wouldnt imagine that behavoir for low current. physics are not always obvious

led4power
led4power's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 12/29/2012 - 09:48
Posts: 1188
Location: Croatia,EU

Lexel wrote:
... Basically the cooler it runs and the more current it gets the less it ages

Thanks for the video, I'll check it later, but I can say immediately something is wrong in "less current - less lifetime" logic,

if this is correct then worst case for LED lifetime is not to turn LED at all (leave it in reel for 1 year).

If 10x lifetime decrease at very low currents (0mA must be the worst by this logic) is true, then completely new,never used LED 1 year after production would be at the end of its life (1 year is ~8000hrs, 10x is ~80000hrs).

 

Your claim that "more current - less ageing" is completely wrong, you can check some L70 tests for various LEDs, at same Tj, LED at higher current ages faster.

This picture summarizes temperature and current effect on LED lifetime(btw check LED lumen output at 350mA - no drop at all after 100000 hrs):

 

 

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany
led4power wrote:

Lexel wrote:
… Basically the cooler it runs and the more current it gets the less it ages

Thanks for the video, I’ll check it later, but I can say immediately something is wrong in “less current – less lifetime” logic,


if this is correct then worst case for LED lifetime is not to turn LED at all (leave it in reel for 1 year).


If 10x lifetime decrease at very low currents (0mA must be the worst by this logic) is true, then completely new,never used LED 1 year after production would be at the end of its life (1 year is ~8000hrs, 10x is ~80000hrs).


 


Your claim that “more current – less ageing” is completely wrong, you can check some L70 tests for various LEDs, at same Tj, LED at higher current ages faster.


This picture summarizes temperature and current effect on LED lifetime(btw check LED lumen output at 350mA – no drop at all after 100000 hrs):



 


 

In the Osram video they talk about a 350mA LED
At 100mA and 150dC it ages slower than on 10mA with 55dC, if you compare both pictures

So why do have Luxeon LEDs the opposite lifetime correlation?

Likely because at some point another factor comes in play.
Maybe thermal stress, who knows

In any case if you cool the LED better the lifetime gets rapidly better as well.

At very low currents the LED gets damaged by diffusion of defective spots in the active zone.

At zero current or close there is not enough energy present to move defective spots.

Even if he drives a XHP70 at 6V 7.2A with a DTP star he gets thousands hours to 70% brightness
If he drives a XHP70 at 50mA it will age probably as fast as with 7.2A

In flashlight use noone will probably see a significant degradation of brightness with a lot normal use

PBWilson
Offline
Last seen: 11 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 08/24/2016 - 17:49
Posts: 878
Location: Rochester, NY

Nice! I’ve been on the fence about this mod ever since I noticed that one bank of leds is a tiny bit dimmer than the other two when in low mode.

It looks quite do-able and I love ramping on my other lights (Q8 and D4).

Any challenges or bumps in the road to look out for? How was it taking off the bezel to get at the emitters? Wasn’t there a warning from Astrolux about removing the bezel and damaging the leds?

FreeMagenta
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 5 days ago
Joined: 10/12/2014 - 12:50
Posts: 175
Location: Poland

Lexel wrote:
Pwm modes at LED nominal currents will be fine for lifetime
For XPL this means 0.35-3A on a cheap star if the junction stays within specification temperature limit

Basically the cooler it runs and the more current it gets the less it ages

So in other words making a moonlight with very low duty cycle PWM should increase LED life while the same moonlight with constant current will make it wear much more rapidly (altough with little more lumens per watt)…
I wonder if 20+ kHz range PWM can have any negative effect on LED though…

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany

PWM increases the LED life in 2 ways the low current age is a lot less plus the LED is only 1/100 of the time on
so that would increase the lifetime by a couple hundred times at least

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany

new version of MF01 needs to get a MCPCB modification as well

you can ignore the cables I put in there, basically you can wire it like you want, just make sure the red circles and the black circles are connected towards each other

the cables of me are in the 3 120° sections just different approaches

you cut so that 2 LEDs are together in series, while to board had originally 6 in series, so 2 cuts per 120° section

mizou51
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 12:06
Posts: 293
Location: France

Wouaaa just 2 small wires. The current is lower?? What the new configuration? Old was 2S3P right?

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany

new uses a boost driver to 20V LED voltage

hIKARInoob
hIKARInoob's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 min 21 sec ago
Joined: 08/28/2016 - 08:15
Posts: 3974
Lexel wrote:
new uses a boost driver to 20V LED voltage

Are you sure about this? Doesn’t this also mean that the new version with boost driver is able to maintain turbo output with depleting cells?

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany
hIKARInoob wrote:
Lexel wrote:
new uses a boost driver to 20V LED voltage

Are you sure about this? Doesn’t this also mean that the new version with boost driver is able to maintain turbo output with depleting cells?

absolutely sure its 6S on the output of the driver

It wont be able to deliver Turbo much longer, the light pulls 120W from the cells and at like 30% discharge of the cells, it will fall out of Max brightness
The 2S driver can go to DD if the Buck regulator falls out of regulation while the boost driver gets more and more inefficient with dropping cell voltage and higher input current

hIKARInoob
hIKARInoob's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 min 21 sec ago
Joined: 08/28/2016 - 08:15
Posts: 3974

Lexel wrote:
absolutely sure its 6S on the output of the driver

It wont be able to deliver Turbo much longer, the light pulls 120W from the cells and at like 30% discharge of the cells, it will fall out of Max brightness
The 2S driver can go to DD if the Buck regulator falls out of regulation while the boost driver gets more and more inefficient with dropping cell voltage and higher input current

Thanks! Freeme confirmed this as well. Really interesting development here. Ok I understand less cell voltage means more current is required for 120W with boost driver. But how how do you know the figures that with 30% discharge it will fall out of max brightness? Secondly, how many lumens would you loose? Just 5%, or 25%? Isn’t an actual test required to know these values?
I do know from my own ceiling bounce test using the M43 as a reference that with 3.75V for the 30Q in the MF01, I get less output (about 6000 lumens) than my M43. I’m curious then how many lumens the new boost driven MF01 will pump out… Output as a function of cell voltage is what I’m after.

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 19 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5193
Location: Germany

This depends mainly how efficient the driver can boost without getting saturation in the inductors or other hardware limitations

BeardedRaleigh
BeardedRaleigh's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 18 hours ago
Joined: 08/16/2016 - 23:45
Posts: 456
Location: Chico, CA

keeping an eye on this one, great thread.

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

hIKARInoob
hIKARInoob's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 min 21 sec ago
Joined: 08/28/2016 - 08:15
Posts: 3974
Lexel wrote:
This depends mainly how efficient the driver can boost without getting saturation in the inductors or other hardware limitations

Basically this new MF01 needs to be tested again. M43 can push turbo with cell voltage as low as about 3.5V with GAs (my own test), and the TM38 can push turbo with cell voltage as low as 3.3V http://budgetlightforum.com/node/51605
Of course different settings, but we’re talking boost drivers here. Curious, curious, curious.
Seriously, if this new boost version can push 10000 Nichia lumens with cell voltage less than 3.7V, I’m probably getting it (again)! Cool

Tom Tom
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/10/2017 - 08:30
Posts: 1163

LED lifetime in ultra-low/moon mode is in any case academic. Whether very low constant current, or PWMed at much higher current.

They will last forever, in our usage.

People who need to understand the detail are making e.g. streetlamps or warehouse lighting that must last 25 years plus, on for maybe 12 hours/day on average in the northern latitudes, where I live. Cree e.g. provide copious data for professional engineers to deeply understand, run the LEDs at their most efficient current level (lumens/watt), understand how the silicone domes can degrade due to environmental contamination, even incorrect choice of e.g. o-ring seals than can outgass degrading chemicals, this is more and more a precisely understood engineering subject, and the likes of Cree etc. are continuing to refine their products for their real markets, which is not us.

Worry more about our over-driven turbo etc. modes, where heat and current density kills.We are usually pushing these things way beyond datasheet parameters.

Except for things like the MF01, where the extravagant use of e.g. 18 decent LEDs to kick out e.g. 10,000 lumens i.e. 555 per LED is very modest indeed. This is one of the last “mega torches” that I would have any concern about over-stressing the LEDs, assuming good thermal protection, which by reports it seems to have, maybe even over-cautious.

10 minutes in turbo getting the torch roasting hot (who knows what LED junction temperatures, upper limit is melting point of solder, where the none-lead stuff is better) might be equivalent to decades in moonlight.

Interesting to discuss, academically, but of no practical relevance, IMHO.

Pages