D4 Titanium!!!

126 posts / 0 new
Last post
Jerommel
Jerommel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/04/2014 - 13:18
Posts: 5721
Location: the Hague, Netherlands
Lexel wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
Lexel wrote:
The best MCPCB does not help if the lights body does not conduct heat well, copper head is good, but titanium sucks
Would be nice if the copper head was sold separately.

my best guess would be copper head, aluminum Tube and bezel

I agree.
Quote:
and titanium tail cap
Why?
Only adds unnecessary costs i.m.o, and you get black, copper colour, black, silver gray… Sick

2Q19

Jerommel
Jerommel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/04/2014 - 13:18
Posts: 5721
Location: the Hague, Netherlands

Boaz wrote:
Does anyone have a picture of an aluminum one stripped down ? Someone has to have done it by now .

Mascuratum de-anodized a 18350 battery tube somewhere.

2Q19

JamesB
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 34 min ago
Joined: 08/24/2011 - 14:43
Posts: 861
Location: France
patmurris wrote:
Not the best move by Hank IMO.

If he can make a profit out of the TI versions, that’s a good business move, there is a market for TI bling even with flashlights were it’s not ideal to say the least, back in CPF those TI flashlight commanded several hundreds of $ price from MCgizmo, Tain, or thousands from data and sold like hot cakes despite the same endless discussions about the inferiority of TI for flashlight application.

I myself have a TI fetish , not to the point of buying a TI flashlight (wich would go against engineering logic) but a lot of people do.

It doesn’t make the alu version disappear so everyone wins.

Boaz
Boaz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 13 hours ago
Joined: 11/07/2010 - 09:31
Posts: 7088
Location: Birthplace of Aviation
I guess my question is why wouldn’t ever manufacturer on the planet offer lights in the raw even before anodized since it’s cheaper .I’m guessing there’s a bigger market for it than they think .

       καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                                  https://www.gty.org/

 

    Still selling diffuser film  >…  http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208

Firelight2
Firelight2's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 28 min ago
Joined: 04/08/2011 - 15:17
Posts: 3623
Location: California

I ordered a D4 titanium with 18350 tube and 4000K XPL HI. I ordered the “F” model (blue gold).

Definitely less practical than aluminum, but I liked that the 18650 tube has knurling on it.

southland
southland's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 12 hours ago
Joined: 11/04/2012 - 07:15
Posts: 3188
Location: Georgia, USA

Overpriced.

Persechini
Persechini's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 07/11/2017 - 03:32
Posts: 505
Location: Brasil

jon_slider wrote:
Some of us are trying to apply logic and reason, to a light that is purely an emotional buy.

there is no practical reason for a light that can get so hot it burns your hand, but people flock to buy multiple D4 lights

there is no practical reason for a light that is capable of thousands of lumens, but cannot maintain more than 500 for any amount of time, but people flock to buy multiple D4 lights

there is no practical reason for a light with a ramping interface that has no discrete, repeatable, lumen levels.. but.. D4 buyers flock like lemmings to the sea

there is no practical reason for a light that can drain an 18650 in 10 minutes, but that has not stopped the D4 from being purchased in higher numbers than any other light on BLF

the benefit of a Titanium body is that it insulates the hand from excess heat, except that using the switch to turn it off will lead to some heat shock from touching the copper head

then there is the PWM above 150 lumens, but who cares, regulation is overrated

Buy the D4 not because it makes sense, buy it because everybody knows it is the Hot Ticket Smile

heheheh, sure, all on point (except ramping, which is actually great IMO)

I found it funny at first when I arrived at BLF that some lights were this high priced, until I ended up following enough external links to actual luxury or faux-luxury flashlights to realize what happens in the “outside”. Plus people show no lack of love for brands like convoy that are very good quality and very fairly priced. I’m ok with a titanium 10 minute hot rod at this price, it’s just not for me. I do have 2 regular emisar flashlights and am waiting on the third thou

In my Tree

My collectionEmisar: D4 / D1 / D4 (broken) ― Convoy: C8 Clear / S2+ Clear / S2+ / S2+ UV / S6 ― Nitecore: Tube / Thumb / Concept 1 / HC30 / HC33 / TIP / TIP CRI / TINI ― Lumintop: Tool AAA / Tool AA / HLAAA / EDC05 ― Sofirn: SF10 / SF12 / SF12 / SF14 / SF14 / SF14 / SP10A / SP10A (gifted) ― Jaxman: E3 ― UTorch: UT01 ― Trustfire: Z2 ― Skyfire: SF-065 (trashed)

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 44 min 24 sec ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5247
Location: Germany

Ok to add costs I want a light made from Gold head and silver tube and tail cap

Why?
Because I have here 5 unused ounces of it and its super cool to have blingbling and patina

And I will make sure I never loose this flashlight

JakeDjanitor
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 hours ago
Joined: 10/27/2015 - 09:00
Posts: 923
Location: North East USA

Maybe they tossed out a high price to see where it stood.
Seems most here think it’s over priced, maybe they will lower it to a point it sells better.

saypat
saypat's picture
Online
Last seen: 7 min 19 sec ago
Joined: 07/13/2011 - 20:32
Posts: 3447
Location: Calif

waiting’ for king Richard to announce they are in stock!

Agro
Agro's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 53 sec ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 4485
Location: Ślōnsk

Firelight2 wrote:
Copper can also store more heat so it will get and stay hotter than anodized aluminum.

It is a common misconception that higher thermal capacity is bad because the item will need more time to cool down.
Higher thermal capacity mean that the item will take longer both to heat up and to cool down. If TC is increased and other variables unchanged, a light with higher TC will always have strictly lower average temperature.

A flashlight uses 3 cooling mechanisms:

  • radiation to air
  • conduction to user hand
  • wind (with fallback to convection when wind is unavailable)

I have no idea how important is each of them. Would love to know.

Efficiency of each of them depends strongly on surface temperature.
But when temperature is software-limited, a limit on temperature becomes a limit on power.
The limit is not the same for different materials because:

  • they have different emissivity
  • they have different conductivity and thus surface temperatures are less even

Emissivity of oxidized copper is about the same as anodized alu. Polished Cu is worse, polished Ti even more so. I failed to find numbers for oxidized Ti.

In a pure copper light surface temps would be more even than in alu one.
In Cu-Ti the head will be much hotter than the rest.
With properly tuned heat regulation, peak head temperature would be the same as in alu light. Sustained output would be lower. But it’s possible that Hank didn’t re-tweak the thermal algorithm to fit the new host better.

BTW one interesting development would be to increase cooling by upping surface temperature significantly above what user can touch painlessly….in areas that user can’t touch. Like bottoms of deep fins. I guess it wouldn’t make a big difference, but maybe I’m wrong. Wink

varbos
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 50 min ago
Joined: 02/16/2017 - 07:36
Posts: 414
Location: Europe

Agro wrote:

A flashlight uses 3 cooling mechanisms:

  • radiation to air
  • conduction to user hand
  • wind (with fallback to convection when wind is unavailable)

I have no idea how important is each of them. Would love to know.


Convection (to air) is most significant for a flashlight in normal use. Radiation and conduction to hand are negligible in comparison.

Wind and convection are same thing….wind just allows for more convection than static air.

JakeDjanitor
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 hours ago
Joined: 10/27/2015 - 09:00
Posts: 923
Location: North East USA

For the durability of titanium, especially the threads it’s worth a bit of a draw back in heat. Its going to be in my hand anyway, my hands will absorb heat slower that titanium can move it.
Just like my hands absorb heat slower than aluminium can move it.
But aluminium is softer than titanium, and will wear faster i imagine.

aginthelaw
aginthelaw's picture
Offline
Last seen: 17 hours 26 min ago
Joined: 09/30/2014 - 21:31
Posts: 795
Location: noo joisey

Lexel wrote:
Ok to add costs I want a light made from Gold head and silver tube and tail cap

Why?
Because I have here 5 unused ounces of it and its super cool to have blingbling and patina

And I will make sure I never loose this flashlight

Do you think Swarovski-crystal encrusted platinum would retain heat in this light?

never fear shadows…it means a light shines nearby

Persechini
Persechini's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 07/11/2017 - 03:32
Posts: 505
Location: Brasil

So copper conducts heat better but overall for a flashlight it’s worse? I’m having a hard time following XD

In my Tree

My collectionEmisar: D4 / D1 / D4 (broken) ― Convoy: C8 Clear / S2+ Clear / S2+ / S2+ UV / S6 ― Nitecore: Tube / Thumb / Concept 1 / HC30 / HC33 / TIP / TIP CRI / TINI ― Lumintop: Tool AAA / Tool AA / HLAAA / EDC05 ― Sofirn: SF10 / SF12 / SF12 / SF14 / SF14 / SF14 / SP10A / SP10A (gifted) ― Jaxman: E3 ― UTorch: UT01 ― Trustfire: Z2 ― Skyfire: SF-065 (trashed)

Nav88
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: 10/30/2017 - 19:51
Posts: 19

In addition to thermal conductivity issues, titanium has the clear disadvantage of undermining the tailcap lockout feature—an important one on this light.

hIKARInoob
hIKARInoob's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 min 49 sec ago
Joined: 08/28/2016 - 08:15
Posts: 3988
Nav88 wrote:
In addition to thermal conductivity issues, titanium has the clear disadvantage of undermining the tailcap lockout feature—an important one on this light.

If I’m not mistaken, there should be tailcap lockout. Current is interrupted at the tailcap PCB, and current does not travel via tailcap itself.

Thetasigma
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 week ago
Joined: 12/01/2016 - 00:25
Posts: 46
Location: Michigan

Do any of you guys realize what titanium and machining titanium costs? This is cheap for the size of the piece plus electronics, wages, and other costs.

As for appeal, why do people buy expensive cars, jewelry, sports memorabilia, etc…

Nav88
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: 10/30/2017 - 19:51
Posts: 19

You can gain a rudimentary understanding of how natural convection and radiation contribute to overall heat transfer by looking at the well-understood model for a horizontal cylinder suspended in a fluid. This doesn’t account for the addition of conduction into the hand and the lost surface area for convection, nor for any type of forced convection (e.g. wind) but it’s a reasonable starting point.

Here is a calculator that will determine the total heat transfer, split between natural convection and radiation, for such a case: https://www.thermal-wizard.com/tmwiz/default.htm

I entered the approximate dimensions of the D4 in meters (.094 L x .024 D) and the approximate emissivity for anodized aluminum (0.8 – quite good!). At an ambient temperature of 20°C and cylinder surface temperature of 50°C (about as hot as you can hold continuously), the D4 can only get rid of about 2.5W. That’s 1.4W by convection and 1.1W by radiation.

At an emissivity of 0.2, which seems to be closer to the value for machined titanium, the total heat transfer drops to only 1.7W, with the same 1.4W from convection and only 0.3W from radiation.

It’s worth pointing out that these rates of heat transfer are at steady-state when the heat generation is equal to the heat dissipation and temperatures are constant throughout the system. It’s obvious that the D4, even with the good emissivity of anodized aluminum, just does not have the surface area to dissipate anywhere near the amount of heat it generates at full power. In theory, thermal regulation should settle on a power level that results in 2.5W of heat generation in the aluminum D4 and 1.4W in the titanium.

More practical questions like how long a light can run before stepping down require more complicated models that look at how temperatures change over time on their way to steady-state, and do factor in the thermal conductivity of the material (notice how that doesn’t matter in a steady-state analysis).

Nav88
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: 10/30/2017 - 19:51
Posts: 19
hIKARInoob wrote:
Nav88 wrote:
In addition to thermal conductivity issues, titanium has the clear disadvantage of undermining the tailcap lockout feature—an important one on this light.

If I’m not mistaken, there should be tailcap lockout. Current is interrupted at the tailcap PCB, and current does not travel via tailcap itself.


I just took a closer look and you appear to be correct – as long as the PCB’s copper layer does not contact the tailcap body. It comes pretty close to the edge.

I can’t check any of my aluminum tailcaps for continuity to the PCB because, well, they’re anodized.

Persechini
Persechini's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 07/11/2017 - 03:32
Posts: 505
Location: Brasil

So, as far as I can understand, buying titanium or copper flashlights is more a matter or durability and aesthetic than performance? Since copper will oxidize anyway, performance-wise it will end up being close to aluminium?

In my Tree

My collectionEmisar: D4 / D1 / D4 (broken) ― Convoy: C8 Clear / S2+ Clear / S2+ / S2+ UV / S6 ― Nitecore: Tube / Thumb / Concept 1 / HC30 / HC33 / TIP / TIP CRI / TINI ― Lumintop: Tool AAA / Tool AA / HLAAA / EDC05 ― Sofirn: SF10 / SF12 / SF12 / SF14 / SF14 / SF14 / SP10A / SP10A (gifted) ― Jaxman: E3 ― UTorch: UT01 ― Trustfire: Z2 ― Skyfire: SF-065 (trashed)

texas shooter
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour ago
Joined: 08/26/2012 - 02:14
Posts: 1271
Location: Texas
Persechini wrote:
So, as far as I can understand, buying titanium or copper flashlights is more a matter or durability and aesthetic than performance? Since copper will oxidize anyway, performance-wise it will end up being close to aluminium?

Not quite, copper will allow a much more heat to be absorbed before it gets as hot as an equal volume of aluminum. I’d compare it to high capacity vs low capacity batteries. Longer to charge at a given rate.

Jerommel
Jerommel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/04/2014 - 13:18
Posts: 5721
Location: the Hague, Netherlands

Thetasigma wrote:
Do any of you guys realize what titanium and machining titanium costs? This is cheap for the size of the piece plus electronics, wages, and other costs.
Is it more difficult than machining stainless steel?
Quote:

As for appeal, why do people buy expensive cars, jewelry, sports memorabilia, etc…

Because they have money to spare…

2Q19

Jerommel
Jerommel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/04/2014 - 13:18
Posts: 5721
Location: the Hague, Netherlands

I think the copper ‘engine’ is a good idea for the D4, but they should have chosen to rose gold plate it (to avoid the patina, keep it shiny) and stick with the Aluminium parts for heat management.

2Q19

JIGHEADWORM
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 23 hours ago
Joined: 07/02/2017 - 18:04
Posts: 246
Location: Tennessee

Jerommel wrote:
I think the copper ‘engine’ is a good idea for the D4, but they should have chosen to rose gold plate it (to avoid the patina, keep it shiny) and stick with the Aluminium parts for heat management.
Copper and aluminum sounds good to me.
jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 56 min 4 sec ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2224
Location: Crowdifornia

Persechini wrote:
Since copper will oxidize anyway, performance-wise it will end up being close to aluminium?

disagree
Copper is 69% MORE heat conductive than Aluminum.
see here

Titanium is 95% LESS heat conductive than Copper

Holding a flashlight in your hand moves MORE heat away from the body of the light, than freestanding the light in still air.

So when using a Titanium/Copper D4, the BEST way to keep it cool is to hold the Copper part in your hand. Holding the Titanium part won’t do much.

and btw, the reverse polarity protection of the D4 does not work. IF you put a battery in backwards it WILL heat up AND overdischarge (to prevent that, be sure to test turning on the light when you insert a battery)
video courtesy of RobertB

ToyKeeper wrote:
Reverse polarity protection is on the driver, but it might not protect the cell. Don’t put the battery in backward, or it may permanently kill the battery.
JamesB
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 34 min ago
Joined: 08/24/2011 - 14:43
Posts: 861
Location: France

Conductivity is the travel of heat in the material itself and is not a bottleneck with CU and AL in flashlights, what interest us is the heat transfer coeficient through convection, it’s better with AL than CU, anodized AL is better than non anodized AL (17% advantage at 0 air speed, so only convection moves air), oxidized CU is better than non oxidized CU among other factors because the oxidized one has a larger surface area than polished one.

Edit: oh i see you edited your post.

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 56 min 4 sec ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 2224
Location: Crowdifornia
JamesB wrote:
Conductivity is the travel of heat … what interest us is the heat transfer coeficient through convection

I dont quite understand your post
are you agreeing that copper is more heat conductive than aluminum?

you seem to be focused on convection, if by that you mean heat transfer to AIR, that is not the primary cooling mode for a flashlight. Holding it in the Hand moves heat away by conduction, much more than still (no fan) air convection. Or maybe I misunderstand your terminology.

In any case, yes, the copper head will get a lot hotter than the Ti body.

hIKARInoob
hIKARInoob's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 min 49 sec ago
Joined: 08/28/2016 - 08:15
Posts: 3988
jon_slider wrote:
JamesB wrote:
Conductivity is the travel of heat … what interest us is the heat transfer coeficient through convection

I dont quite understand your post
are you agreeing that copper is more heat conductive than aluminum?

you seem to be focused on convection, if by that you mean heat transfer to AIR, that is not the primary cooling mode for a flashlight. Holding it in the Hand moves heat away by conduction, much more than still (no fan) air convection. Or maybe I misunderstand your terminology.

In any case, yes, the copper head will get a lot hotter than the Ti body.

There is heat transfer:

1) from led (primary heat source) to surface of flashlight ==> thermal conductivity of materials

2) Dissipation of heat from surface of flashlight to surrounding, whether it is air, or physical contact (hand). ==> radiation, convection and conduction.

alphazeta
alphazeta's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 11/03/2013 - 11:50
Posts: 541
Location: NYC
Jerommel wrote:
Thetasigma wrote:
Do any of you guys realize what titanium and machining titanium costs? This is cheap for the size of the piece plus electronics, wages, and other costs.
Is it more difficult than machining stainless steel

I’m not a machinist but have been told that is a resounding YES.

For instance I once sent off a bunch of my Titanium items to be beadblasted my an industrial machinist whom I meet on CPF. It was the 1st time he worked with the material and -> upon blasting the Ti hot sparks/embers were sent all over his shop Big Smile Apparently that’s one of Ti’s machining properties. Supposedly it machines quite differently than stainless steel. (But yeah, no first hand experience here. Perhaps the machinists on here can chime in.)

Pages