Massive sale on 18650s in the Littokala Aliexpress store!

431 posts / 0 new
Last post
BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 10 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 1212
Location: Canada

These testers can’t test internal resistance well even if their lives depended on it.

You need either a constant current load with a internal resistance tester, or an internal resistance meter for batteries.

manithree
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 22 min ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 01:08
Posts: 205
Location: Orem, UT
JackJax wrote:
Doesn’t the lii-500 indicate internal resistance on one of the bays? What does that show for these?

It shows something, but from what I read before I bought mine, it’s not to be trusted.

FWIW, they’re showing 35, 32, 34, 32, 45, and 32 mR.

ActiveAl
ActiveAl's picture
Offline
Last seen: 30 min 35 sec ago
Joined: 03/27/2018 - 03:14
Posts: 162
Location: Central Florida

JackJax wrote:
Doesn't the lii-500 indicate internal resistance on one of the bays? What does that show for these?

All four of the Lii-500 slots will provide an internal resistance reading, but the problem is, for me, that the readings are untrustworthy. Here are measurements taken of the six LiitoKala 30Qs I got from the LiitoKala Factory Store:

Internal Resistance Measurements (mΩ)
Cell Slot One Slot Two Slot Three

Slot Four

1 15 47 32 33
2 10 16 10 33
3 10 10 44 10
4 10 33 10 32
5 31 10 10 10
6 10 10 10 10

 

A reading was taken for each battery in each slot of the Lii-500. I spun the cells in the slots a little or put a little extra pressure on the spring to ensure good contact. Maybe these values show a trend, or maybe my machine is malfunctioning and they  are completely worthless. What bothers me is that I can't get consistent (repeatable) readings to any degree. 

So I recently ordered a Battery Resistance Voltmeter Internal Impedance Meter LCD Rechargeable SM8124A. Perhaps it will provide some IR measurement consistency I can hang my hat on.      

 

 

We need three things in life: something to do, something to look forward to, and someone to love.

Barkuti
Barkuti's picture
Offline
Last seen: 50 min ago
Joined: 02/19/2014 - 14:46
Posts: 2656
Location: Alhama de Murcia, Spain

manithree wrote:

Doing a NOR TEST on my lii-500. If they come out at ~3Ah, I'm happy.

If they come out at ≈3Ah, you're happy? Well, at least in this respect you shouldn't fully be.

In an accurate Lii-500 or adjusting its capacity measurement (example: mine reads ≈98%), a 30Q cell at 0.5A down to 2.8V is to deliver ≈2.9Ah, and it will deviate very little from this figure. Quality cells are very tightly binned.

Those cells may be rewrapped LG HG2 brethren, or not. They may also be some even cheaper cell from another OEM.

For reference, take a look at this see-through rewrapped known good 30Q cell:

 

 

Receiving something different is not good and is cheating no matter what. For a battery pack builder this uncertainty can be untenuable.

By the way: About AliExpress' FLAWED feedback/rating system and FIX-UP

 

Cheers Smile

manithree
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 22 min ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 01:08
Posts: 205
Location: Orem, UT
Barkuti wrote:

If they come out at ≈3Ah, you’re happy? Well, at least in this respect you shouldn’t fully be.

In an accurate Lii-500 or adjusting its capacity measurement (example: mine reads ≈98%), a 30Q cell at 0.5A down to 2.8V is to deliver ≈2.9Ah, and it will deviate very little from this figure.

Ah, yes. My mistake. If they test the same as the 30Qs I bought for my Q8, I probably won’t complain.

Are there really cheap, dangerous cells that have 2900 mAh capacity? All the bad ones I bought before I knew better were 1500 mAh, or even much lower.

Barkuti
Barkuti's picture
Offline
Last seen: 50 min ago
Joined: 02/19/2014 - 14:46
Posts: 2656
Location: Alhama de Murcia, Spain

manithree wrote:

Are there really cheap, dangerous cells that have 2900 mAh capacity? All the bad ones I bought before I knew better were 1500 mAh, or even much lower.

Of course there are cheaper cells with that capacity, this is just an attribute besides AC/DC internal resistance and V(C) or discharge curve shape and voltage levels.

The problem here is that, if you don't complain, it's sort of like telling them “it's 0K for me if you continue lieing about your products” or “keep lieing to me” or whatever. There's no need to be prejudiced against them nor anyone, just to politely report what happens so others can see.

 

Cheers Smile

eas
eas's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 51 sec ago
Joined: 07/14/2014 - 18:53
Posts: 989
Location: PNW

I just received an order I placed from https://liitokalahongkong.aliexpress.com/store/217753 (the 5yo liitokala Official Store).

I didn’t order any 30q, since I already have ~10 of those I’ve purchased at various times from Liion Wholesale. Instead I ordered two more of the black Lii-50A 26650s (to add to the 4x I purchased from the same store a few months ago). Along with those, I ordered 4x of their alleged LG HG2 and one alleged Sony VTC6.

I did a visual inspection of the Lii-sourced HG2 against a pair I recent received from Liion Wholesale. They have same number of vents on the anode. The shrink wrap color and texture are very similar. Looking more closely though, I notice that the diameter of the flat area on the anode is slightly smaller on the Lii cells. Also, the shrink wrap is just slightly lighter. There are two slightly raised ridges in the shrinkwrap that run lengthwise on opposite sides of the cell. The ridges are notably lighter colored than the rest of the plastic. It looks like the shrinkwrap was flat and sharply creased before application. All of these physical features differentiate between the cells from the two sources, but they don’t necesarily mean that they aren’t all genuine LG HG2 cells. The anode vents could be within LGs specs, but sourced from different suppliers using slightly different tooling. The shrinkwrap could come from a different run. Maybe one roll pallet, and were compressed to the point of creasing by the weight of the rolls above, while the other came from the top. Still, they are certainly evidence of difference.

I charged a couple of the new LG HG2, along with those already on hand, and I did some quick tests in a few of my DD lights. In a given light there wasn’t an obvious difference in brightness, or the rate at which the lights heated up.

I’ve inspected used the “Sony” cell, too, but I don’t have another VTC6 for direct comparison.

I need to get my windows machine running again so I can use my EDC-05 and EDC-10 do IR tests and discharge curves on the cells from both sources so we have some more detailed information to look at. If/when I’ve got it running, I’d be happy to test any suspect 30Qs if anyone wants to take responsibility for getting them to (and from) me in Seattle.

Too many streetlights, not enough flashlights.

manithree
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 22 min ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 01:08
Posts: 205
Location: Orem, UT
Barkuti wrote:

The problem here is that, if you don’t complain, it’s sort of like telling them “it’s 0K for me if you continue lieing about your products” or “keep lieing to me” or whatever. There’s no need to be prejudiced against them nor anyone, just to politely report what happens so others can see.

I’m only capable of a visual inspection (are they new, not obvious pulls or re-wraps), and capacity test. They pretty much pass every test for me. Some folks here claim that they know enough about the manufacturers and their processes that they can determine from the anode that these can’t be a 30Q, or maybe can’t even be a Samsung. I don’t have that kind of information, so “the button top looks different” seems like a pretty weak complaint. I’m not trying to convince those who know more than me not to complain. I just don’t think I have grounds to.

Speed4goal
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 06/11/2016 - 13:03
Posts: 1204
Location: Bay, St. Louis Mississippi

On Google it will take you about 5 mins or so to complete it may help you understand why the top looking different is almost 99.99 percent guarantee they arnt Samsung. I believe they are probably mg1 maybe Panasonic pf cells. Now search on google. Samsung, 13q,15q,15l,20q,20r,20s,24s,25r,26f,26h,28a,30q,30a,35e,find a Samsung cell with 4 prongs. I actually own all these cells except the 20s and new 24s. Samsung’s trade mark is 3 prong. You’ll find almost every cell under the sun scrounging through recycle bins. Off topic rant, from what I just find I bet millions and millions of great cells are recycled each year being wasted. I’ve found brand new laptop packs, brand new 20r, 25r, he2,he4, nsx,hg2. I sometimes there’s some minor wear but in those usually 80 to 95 percent capacity left. It amazes me what people just throw away and have no use for. Just like tomorrow and Tuesday I’m hitting the bins hard. Because my thought process is for fathers day a lot of men just got new power tools and batteries and probably some will go recycle there old ones. The last 2 years I’ve found great pretty much new packs the whole next week after fathers day.

Ill admit I jumped the gun thinking the official store was related to them. It didn’t make sense why they would throw everything away when they sell thousands of chargers and 26650s a year. But stranger things have happened.

Now with that said people didn’t get what they paid for but based on the capacity tests and the not so accurate ir but good idea of the health of the cell. And rough dd test. I’m not saying this is right it’s not. But it seems like the cells that were shipped out are actually worth 2.50 a piece. Like I said once it’s found out what the capabilities are if it’s a 10 amp cell if people can’t get refunded I’ll buy some from people at cost. I have use for 10 amp cells. From lights to vaping. I go through a lot of batteries now, thank god for the recycle bins. It’s great to find cells with 80 to 100 percent capacity and beat them down and recycle them back a couple hundred cycles later. I have 2 4 bays chargers and 1 2 bay charger that go 24 hours a day. I always need batteries. Sometimes charging 40 a day

2/9 Fox Co (2009-2015) Semper Fi 0311/0331 Rifleman/Machine Gunner
Blf has changed a lot since I've been here. Lots of snow flakes and easily offended over nothing. When the forum use to be great and people joked around and could take a joke. It's a forum it's not that serious. Let's make BLF great again!

Agro
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 8 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 2403
Location: Ślōnsk

Got my VTC5A. They are definitely re-wrapped. The wraps have writings that look OK at first glance. But wrapping has the 2 thick lines that are result of the wrapping being folded in half before it was used.
Also, they get black insulation rings at the positive pole. (EDIT: I see my previous ones do too).
Also, they all have the same serial number.

Barkuti
Barkuti's picture
Offline
Last seen: 50 min ago
Joined: 02/19/2014 - 14:46
Posts: 2656
Location: Alhama de Murcia, Spain

Received a couple Samsung INR18650-35E cells from here a few days ago, and you can be sure they're completely legit.

On the other hand, I am also waiting for 4x INR18650-30Q cells from here and the stuff smells rather bad…

 

Cheers Smile

CNCman
CNCman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 23 hours 32 min ago
Joined: 04/07/2018 - 10:10
Posts: 166
Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast

Is it worth worrying over a few dollars for a few weeks, or just order from suppliers that provide Quality and pay more and get them faster ? I am tired of worrying over a few dollars. Last time I saved $3 and waited 4 wks not knowing if they would be good or not. I’m done with that.

CNC & Manual Machinist. Think outside the box too long , cannot find your way back in.

Good Intentions are no guarantee for Good Results.

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 4 hours ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7708
Location: SC

^

But where is the fun in that?

JK, I buy some cells that way too.

 

More Test Results:

I've not had any luck getting my electronic load working again.  The best test I can think of with what I have is to measure lumens in high draw lights.  Tonight I used a Q8 that has Luxeon V's, highly bypassed tail, 18 gauge leads, KD AR lens, & A20DP FET.  I only quickly measured it once set up like this and didn't time for 30 seconds.  It measured about 8.5K lumens and start up and about 8K at around 20 seconds or so.  Take my measurement with a grain of salt.  I don't have alot of lumen measurement experience.  I estimate it measures some where under 8K at 30 seconds.  So assuming 10% OTF lumen loss, the light is probably pulling around 28 amps. Seven amps per cell.

I have made several mods to my integrating tube and have not calibrated it yet.  So all I could do is measure lux readings with my known authentic 30Q's and then measured with the cells purchased from the link in the OP ("LFS cells").  The measurements were 10200 lux with the authentic 30Q's and 10160 lux with the LFS cells.  It's late, so I didn't allow the head to cool off much between the 2 runs.  I don't know how much that may have impacted the second run (LFS cells).

I'll try to take some tailcap measurements tomorrow with the Q8.  Then measure lux with a MF01.  Any ideas out there.  Maybe measure with the Q8 using 2 cells, instead of 4?

CJ Avlis
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 12 min ago
Joined: 07/21/2017 - 20:30
Posts: 238
Location: USA

Hmmm…seems as though PayPal automatically escalated my case from a dispute up to a claim.

manithree
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 22 min ago
Joined: 01/12/2013 - 01:08
Posts: 205
Location: Orem, UT

Finally got around to jotting down the NOR TEST results: 3008, 3033,3060, 3091, 3058, and 3000 mAh.

JordanZHP
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 12 min ago
Joined: 03/25/2017 - 04:37
Posts: 98
Location: Petaluma, CA

I own two Q8’s and used 4 legit 30Qs fresh off the charger and 4 of the “liitokala Factory Store” 30Qs fresh off the charger. I turned both lights on turbo for ~6 minutes and the Q8 with the legit cells was pretty warm/hot. The Q8 with the “liitokala Factory Store” cells was considerably hotter all over, the head, battery tube and batteries themselves. The heat difference was extremely noticeable. Not sure if this helps confirm mine are fake?

WalkIntoTheLight
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 5 days ago
Joined: 12/05/2015 - 10:26
Posts: 1542
Location: Canada
JordanZHP wrote:
I own two Q8’s and used 4 legit 30Qs fresh off the charger and 4 of the “liitokala Factory Store” 30Qs fresh off the charger. I turned both lights on turbo for ~6 minutes and the Q8 with the legit cells was pretty warm/hot. The Q8 with the “liitokala Factory Store” cells was considerably hotter all over, the head, battery tube and batteries themselves. The heat difference was extremely noticeable. Not sure if this helps confirm mine are fake?

Probably confirms their internal resistance is higher than genuine cells. I’d be concerned about using those cells in the Q8, but I’m surprised they got hot. The Q8 probably doesn’t use more than 5 amps per cell, and maybe less if the cell’s internal resistance is high. They shouldn’t get hot after 6 minutes. I guess it depends on what you consider “hot”.

I thought the consensus was that the fake cells were supposed to be “good” 10 amp cells?

Edit: As the other poster noted, I missed that you said the head got hotter with the fake cells. That is odd, but maybe it’s explainable if the cells got abnormally hot.

Barkuti
Barkuti's picture
Offline
Last seen: 50 min ago
Joined: 02/19/2014 - 14:46
Posts: 2656
Location: Alhama de Murcia, Spain

A friend of mine has a few genuine LG HG2 cells I will be able to compare our liitokala Factory Store (725333) 4x 30Q order against. If required will unwrap the cells for close-up inspection.

I am also waiting for a Wanptek KPS3010DF precision power supply. Together with a small mV precision voltmeter I have lying around it will allow me to precisely measure cell DC IR.

 

Cheers Smile

GreenLights
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 39 min ago
Joined: 01/22/2018 - 00:56
Posts: 89
Location: USA

Instead of the 30Q’s, I took this opportunity to get some Panasonic NCR18650B. My rationale was I didn’t want to risk the possibly fake batteries in a high drain light, but I would risk getting fake high-capacity cells for a power bank. Well my batteries arrived today. I haven’t put them on the charger yet, but immediately I noticed the top, with 5 “vents” and 5 “prongs.” (sorry, don’t know the official term) A quick search on the IMR website and Orbtronic website shows 3 “vents” and “prongs.” And yes, they are from the “Factory” store.

Just discovered this wonderful addiction.

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 4 hours ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7708
Location: SC

Measured a several cells of each in the Q8 mentioned above.  My some what aged and warn authentic 30Q cells pushed 21 amps and drifted to 20 amps at 30 seconds.  The LFS 30Q measured 18 amps at start up and then drifted down to 16 amps.  Lumens measured the differently too.  On average, the real 30Q's had Lux started around 9.6K lux and drifted down to around 8.6K lux at 30 seconds.  The LFS cells stared around 8.6K lux and drifted down to 7.6K lux.  It's clear to me that the chemistry in these cells are not authentic 30Q.

Both the authentic and LFS cells were warm after each test.

Barkuti
Barkuti's picture
Offline
Last seen: 50 min ago
Joined: 02/19/2014 - 14:46
Posts: 2656
Location: Alhama de Murcia, Spain

Speed4goal wrote:
… Samsung's trade mark is 3 prong. …

Samsung also manufactures some 6 lobe/prong cells: 22F, 24F26F, 26H, 26J

 

Cheers Smile

Zulumoose
Zulumoose's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 5 min ago
Joined: 04/13/2017 - 09:25
Posts: 733
Location: South Africa
JordanZHP wrote:
I own two Q8’s and used 4 legit 30Qs fresh off the charger and 4 of the “liitokala Factory Store” 30Qs fresh off the charger. I turned both lights on turbo for ~6 minutes and the Q8 with the legit cells was pretty warm/hot. The Q8 with the “liitokala Factory Store” cells was considerably hotter all over, the head, battery tube and batteries themselves. The heat difference was extremely noticeable. Not sure if this helps confirm mine are fake?

Too many other factors possibly at work. First thing to do would be to repeat the test with the batteries swapped between Q8’s. If the same Q8 gets hotter the test is meaningless. Hotter Q8 (all else being equal) would mean better battery performance anyway, not worse.

So many things would need to be exactly the same for the test to be valid.
Assuming the batteries were all identically charged –
Between the Q8’s
Both would have to be exactly at maximum
Both would have to have the same thermal management temperature set, and the same step-down behaviour.
Both would need to start at the same temperature and have the same airflow for cooling
Both would need to have the same resistance, which could be upset by tightening, cleaning, spring tension, uneven screw tension etc.
Both would need to have the same thermal conductance, which could be affected by uneven thermal paste application.

At 6 minutes it is even possible that the one that felt hottest at the end was not the hottest all through, it may just be in a different stage of the thermal management step-up and step-down. It may be at a peak and about to step down, wheras the other may be in a trough and about to step up.

A better test would be to use the same Q8 starting at the same temperature, double clicked to turbo, tail-standing in the same place without airflow, and time it to the first step-down. Be sure to set the memory level to a medium or low output so you know for sure that your double click has really gone to turbo.

Beam me up!

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 4 hours ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7708
Location: SC

I tested a couple more cells and summarized my results a few posts up.  Unfortunately, I have no new authentic 30Q's to test against.  I averaged the results of my cells, but many of them have served hard duty for some time.

I filed a dispute because of the blatant false advertising and because the seller never responded to my attempt to my inquiry.  The seller has responded that the pictures I provided are fake.  That's funny.  Some of my pics I provided are here:

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1334877#comment-1334877

Maybe others have used my pictures as evidence.

 

EDIT: Fixed some typos

Zulumoose
Zulumoose's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 5 min ago
Joined: 04/13/2017 - 09:25
Posts: 733
Location: South Africa
Quote:
The seller has responded that the pictures I provided fake

That is a serious accusation against your character, all other issues aside they deserve to be boycotted just for that. Anyone making an accusation like that has the burden of proof , and must support their argument. They have made a positive factual claim, so they must substantiate it.

Ali-express need to step in here and see the seriousness of the conduct of one of their stores. Perhaps other Liitokala stores should also be informed of how their name is being dragged through the mud by the behaviour of this store.

Beam me up!

BROODMASTER
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 23 hours ago
Joined: 08/31/2013 - 16:10
Posts: 147

 I sent my own photos with one from the seller's page. He called them fake. But I also provided a link to the 30Q lygte-info review page.

Seller new proposal: no refund/no return.

Well, of course the good merchant is going to say that.

Emisar D4 (Nichia & XP-L), Convoy L2, S2&+ w/XP-L, S6, M2, iProtec 1400, Nitenumen 'C8', Fenix HL50 & HP12, XinTD C8, Manker E11, Eagletac D25LC2 Mini, Sofirn SP31, SP32A & SP 33, Thorfire TK15, Thrunite Ti3, various Ultrafire, Defiant 3C triple (2017),...

Agro
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 8 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 2403
Location: Ślōnsk

I was told that “the picture provided is false”. I asked for clarification and there was silence.

Aliexpress will step in in 4 days. Can’t wait.

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 4 hours ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7708
Location: SC

Hopefully, Ali sees the pattern of his/her responses.

JakeDjanitor
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 8 hours ago
Joined: 10/27/2015 - 09:00
Posts: 912
Location: North East USA

Mine came in, what exactly should I say to the seller? I ordered 6 30q, and as you have all said the top does not have 3 prongs. How do we explain how these are fakes ?

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 4 hours ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7708
Location: SC

^

I recommend you contact the seller first and give him a chance to make it right.  That will help you if you have to raise a dispute.  Always looks better if you tried to work it out without Ali's assistance first.  The seller never responded to my attempt to work it out. 

You can only provide 3 pictures as evidence when you raise the dispute.  I would try to take photos that show the following deviations from the pictures in the product page:

  • Wrapper that is slightly darker and has irregularities.  Authentic 30Q's are lighter colored and nicer quality.
  • No Samsung product run and manufacturing date stamps on the metal can.  You will need to strip the wrapper off a cells to do that.  Include the wrapper in the picture next to the stripped cell.  I plan to rewrap mine anyway as I don't want anyone to confuse them with actual 30Q's.
  • Top of cell that has 4 prongs.
Barkuti
Barkuti's picture
Offline
Last seen: 50 min ago
Joined: 02/19/2014 - 14:46
Posts: 2656
Location: Alhama de Murcia, Spain

Hello! Smile

Related thread for those of you who may be interested: Seems like I got a six-pack of counterfeit/fake Samsung ICR18650-30B cells :-/

Well, I have a shipment with presumed fake cells on the way, should land home soon. This is of interest to me because we need to devise a way to make our rights to prevail. 

 

Cheers Party

Pages