WAVIEN COLLARS: This part bugs me.....

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nottawhackjob
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To quote Warren Zevon…..

You’re gonna be an Excitable Boy. LOL Beer

“In many things in order to truly understand the small picture you have to understand the big picture first.”

Enderman
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Agro wrote:

I was confused about this too. According to this, focal length is half radius.
So optimal mirrors should have diameter close to 4x FL. So M026 is the only one looking good.
Quite big.
Well, maybe M048 would work OK too? Loses a lot of mirror area, but only in places of low intensity. Enderman, can you calculate light collection?

BTW, any hint on shipping costs?

ADDED:
I can’t help but wonder how much would cost M048 extended to full or near-full half-sphere, with factory-cut hole and cold mirror coating if we made a GB


Hi, please click the “show more” button in that link you posted, it takes you to this: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/geoopt/mireq.html#c2
That equation only applies to small angles, where the sphere has a large radius and is close to a flat mirror. Also that requires the incident ray to be parallel.
If the source is AT the focal point of the sphere, then it looks like this:

The focal length and radius are the same.

X3 wrote:
You don’t really need a full hemisphere no ? I mean, your emitter is not efficient on 180° anyway ?
I can’t understand how the focal length can be different than the radius of the sphere Facepalm

Yeah as I mentioned earlier very little light is emitted close to 90 degrees from vertical.
It would be nice to have something that does extend down to 90 degrees though, like a wavien collar, for more accurate comparison.

DavidEF wrote:
In a true sphere/hemisphere/quarter-sphere/whatever… the focal length is the radius, because the focal point is exact center of the sphere. Anything else is not a sphere (or portion thereof). But, since these are reflectors, maybe there is some amount of extra material extending beyond the spherical portion?

Probably not, seeing from the images.
That would be counter productive for when they are used in projectors since an ellipsoidal reflector needs to collect the rest of the light.

ImA4Wheelr wrote:

Looks like the focal length is longer than the radius of the published diameters is because these are not full half spheres. So it appears the published diameters are of the product and not the actual spherical diameter.  Here is diagram from one of the products:


No, that’s only the case when the listed diameter is cutting into the sphere, the problem is when the listed diameter is BIGGER than the sphere.
The problem is this:
64mm diameter, 16mm focal length.
If the focal length is the true focal length of the sphere, then the radius is 16mm, (see image above)
If the radius is 16mm, the diameter of the reflective surface is 32mm.
That would mean the glass is 16mm thick??? Nope, definitely not.

I think agro is right, they may be using that other method of measuring the focal length using parallel rays.
Which is not very good, since we all know that spherical lenses and reflectors have multiple focal lengths.

ImA4Wheelr
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^

The diagram of the lens I posted shows clearly what Optolife is presenting as "Diameter".   The full sphere with that focal point would have a larger diameter.  Irregardless of wall thickness in this case.  Re-pasting Optolife's diagram.

 

Agro
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Enderman wrote:
Agro wrote:

I was confused about this too. According to this, focal length is half radius.
So optimal mirrors should have diameter close to 4x FL. So M026 is the only one looking good.
Quite big.
Well, maybe M048 would work OK too? Loses a lot of mirror area, but only in places of low intensity. Enderman, can you calculate light collection?

BTW, any hint on shipping costs?

ADDED:
I can’t help but wonder how much would cost M048 extended to full or near-full half-sphere, with factory-cut hole and cold mirror coating if we made a GB


Hi, please click the “show more” button in that link you posted, it takes you to this: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/geoopt/mireq.html#c2
That equation only applies to small angles, where the sphere has a large radius and is close to a flat mirror. Also that requires the incident ray to be parallel.
If the source is AT the focal point of the sphere, then it looks like this:

The focal length and radius are the same.

I actually said that this definition is OK only with small angles…

Focal length depends on the definition of a focal point.
That site defines focal point differently from what you or me expect, but they do so consistently with what we see on the Optolife site.
And on your picture, the light source is at certain unmarked point. And they don’t use the words related to “focus” at all. So it’s not too strong indication that this reflector maker considers “focal point” to be the centre of a sphere.

Enderman
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You’re right, it seems that convention is the center is twice the focal length, based on this:

The ones that have a diameter approx. 4 times the focal length are:
M025 (probably not available)
M026
M033 (probably not available)
M074 (lists two focal lengths, not sure which is correct one)

Best way to find out is to test them though, I’ll buy a bunch soon.
I found some others which aren’t listed on the website too, maybe they were discontinued.
http://www.optolife.com/front_surface_mirror/M025.html
http://www.optolife.com/front_surface_mirror/M033.html
http://www.optolife.com/front_surface_mirror/M040.html
http://www.optolife.com/front_surface_mirror/M069.html

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OK unfortunately none of those spherical reflectors are in stock Sad
Would need to order a large batch for them to make them.
I’m taking a look at aliexpress right now, some on there look ok, just a lot more expensive: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DIY-Projector-accessories-parabolic-refl...
It says parabolic, even though it doesn’t look like it.
BUT
they do have a new batch of A037 and A380 lenses in stock, so if you own a BLF GT or want to make an aspheric superthrower, go buy them Smile
They are $25 usd each.

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Has anyone tried to do their own Aluminum Evaporation coating at home ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne4-10kiSaE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2FhHuFrZrQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLehYoPzdW8

You can buy one for a not cheap price.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Aluminium-Reflector-Cup-light-vac...

But i bet that it can be done at home cheaper. Pure Aluminum, i was told does not corrode. I’m just throwing this out there for anyone desperate to make their own WAVIEN COLLARS or reflectors.

CNC & Manual Machinist. Think outside the box too long , cannot find your way back in.

Never give up, Never surrender. Make someone Smile today.

nottawhackjob
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“It says parabolic, even though it doesn’t look like it .”

Looks too spherical/steeper walled to me too.

Btw in Marinebeams’ video in the Product Description, that collimating lens is very thick. I’m used to seeing aspheric lenses that are a lot thinner than that. Is it that thick I presume to enable reading candela more accurately at 1 meter?

“In many things in order to truly understand the small picture you have to understand the big picture first.”

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It’s thicker to collect more lumens, since the wavien collar has a 60 degree output.
If it was thinner it would have a longer focal length and some lumens would be lost.

Theodore41
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Enderman wrote:

BUT
they do have a new batch of A037 and A380 lenses in stock, so if you own a BLF GT or want to make an aspheric superthrower, go buy them Smile
They are $25 usd each.

How super would be this super?And how much would be the total cost?
Enderman
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Theodore41 wrote:
Enderman wrote:

BUT
they do have a new batch of A037 and A380 lenses in stock, so if you own a BLF GT or want to make an aspheric superthrower, go buy them Smile
They are $25 usd each.

How super would be this super?And how much would be the total cost?

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1318132#comment-1318132
Smile
nikosb
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Most flashlights use parabolic reflectors to collimate light from a LED emitter. If the reflector has spherical curvature instead of a parabolic one and is used to collimate light then there is no patent infringement. No one can stop use from using that reflector upside down so as to reflect light back to the LED emitter for personal use. So if you can find a factory in China that would make a semi-spherical reflector for “regular” use should not be expensive. Does any one have contacts with flashlight manufacturers in China?

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nikosb wrote:
Most flashlights use parabolic reflectors to collimate light from a LED emitter. If the reflector has spherical curvature instead of a parabolic one and is used to collimate light then there is no patent infringement. No one can stop use from using that reflector upside down so as to reflect light back to the LED emitter for personal use. So if you can find a factory in China that would make a semi-spherical reflector for “regular” use should not be expensive. Does any one have contacts with flashlight manufacturers in China?

Unfortunately you’re wrong. The collar patent does prevent one from legally using a regular spherical reflector upside down. Though I would love to see someone in China making a budget light infringing on that patent…
nikosb
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Reflectors with spherical curvature instead of parabolic curvature existed and were used long before the Wavien collar existed. So there is no infringement for a manufacturer to make a spherical reflector to be used the way a parabolic or elliptical reflector are used in a flashlight as long as the reflector is clearly marked for that purpose. You are right that it would be illegal to use that reflector upside down for commercial reasons. Once you buy the reflector how one will use it for personal purposes is not an issue.

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nikosb wrote:
Reflectors with spherical curvature instead of parabolic curvature existed and were used long before the Wavien collar existed. So there is no infringement for a manufacturer to make a spherical reflector to be used the way a parabolic or elliptical reflector are used in a flashlight as long as the reflector is clearly marked for that purpose. You are right that it would be illegal to use that reflector upside down for commercial reasons. Once you buy the reflector how one will use it for personal purposes is not an issue.

Cool. Smile
nikosb
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So, a quick quote from a chinese optics manufacturer for a spherical reflector made from aluminum and with reflective coating similar to reflectors used in flashlights is $250 tooling cost, and $0.40/reflector for 1000units order. Total cost is $650. If there are 20 people the price would be around $30/unit, 100 people $6.5/unit. Here is their drawing. Would that work if used upside down?

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nikosb wrote:
… is $250 tooling cost, and $0.40/reflector for 1000units order. Total cost is $650. If there are 20 people the price would be around $30/unit, 100 people $6.5/unit. Here is their drawing. Would that work if used upside down?

Looks like it, except that the hole is probably too narrow. The opening spreads out 2asin(1/3) = ≈38.942°.

A 60° top opening is often used for collars (?) I think. Wait for others to chime in concerning this subject, though.

There is more informed people in this respect than me, but a good starting point could be choosing some known aspheric host which could accommodate the collar, then choosing the collar dimensions to fit. I was going to say the UF-1405, but as I see it its pill design is pretty bad, it would require a completely redesigned pill with super-flat emitter surface as the well known Cometa or Jaxman Z1 (job for kiriba-ru if enough interested people). There's a long zoomie flashlight discussion in Zooming Model List (2018 Updated) Tell us about your newest zoomie!, great place to ask questions about good zoomie hosts for collars inverted Big Smile reflectors.

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This was a quick quote that I obtained to make a point that ordering an aluminum reflector with spherical curvature is not that expensive. The size of the reflector, the diameter of the aperture and the shape of the aperture can of course be customized. I don’t expect the cost to change a lot (unless the size of the reflector increases a lot). One member suggested also the aperture should be sharp. This reduces reflections off the edge – and a ring artifact caused by it. If a reflector design is finalized then submitting a RFQ on alibaba might return quotes that are less expensive or perhaps if we are lucky a factory already makes a reflector with spherical curvature and similar specifications Cool .

The quote was obtained by doing a google search and contacting one the first companies in the search results. The company that gave me the quote is called Nata , supposedly the biggest reflector designer and manufacturer in China according to their website (maybe they make the reflectors in our flashlights too) Smile . I know some people in this forum manufacture their own flashlights (Simon, Convoy flashlights), they would probably know where and how to make exactly what we need for cheap.

Actually I just did another google search for spherical reflectors and there seems to be some already made and in stock by Optiform, although they are rather large in side (7” diameter). This proves the point that making a reflector with spherical curvature is not infringing on any intellectual properties. Using it for personal purposes is not an issue either. Spherical reflectors existed long before the Wavien RLT Collar was created.

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nikosb wrote:
So, a quick quote from a chinese optics manufacturer for a spherical reflector made from aluminum and with reflective coating similar to reflectors used in flashlights is $250 tooling cost, and $0.40/reflector for 1000units order. Total cost is $650. If there are 20 people the price would be around $30/unit, 100 people $6.5/unit. Here is their drawing. Would that work if used upside down?

!https://i.ibb.co/ZXm9jN3/Screen-Shot-2020-04-03-at-1-14-20-PM.png!

Math is a bit confusing there. For 1000 units for $650, the price comes out to $0.65/unit no matter what. For 20 people that would be $32.50 each, but they would be getting 50 reflectors. Similarly, for 100 people, $6.50 each but they get 10 units.

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nikosb
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Scallywag wrote:
nikosb wrote:
So, a quick quote from a chinese optics manufacturer for a spherical reflector made from aluminum and with reflective coating similar to reflectors used in flashlights is $250 tooling cost, and $0.40/reflector for 1000units order. Total cost is $650. If there are 20 people the price would be around $30/unit, 100 people $6.5/unit. Here is their drawing. Would that work if used upside down?

!https://i.ibb.co/ZXm9jN3/Screen-Shot-2020-04-03-at-1-14-20-PM.png!

Math is a bit confusing there. For 1000 units for $650, the price comes out to $0.65/unit no matter what. For 20 people that would be $32.50 each, but they would be getting 50 reflectors. Similarly, for 100 people, $6.50 each but they get 10 units.

Yes, you are right. I assumed people would be interested in one or two reflectors only. Keep in mind that these would be for personal use, not commercial use.

I can ask the manufacturer if they would do a smaller quantity. Usually many manufacturers have MOQ so even if you order less units they still charge you about the same, otherwise it is not worth their time to get involved.

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nikosb wrote:
Scallywag wrote:
nikosb wrote:
So, a quick quote from a chinese optics manufacturer for a spherical reflector made from aluminum and with reflective coating similar to reflectors used in flashlights is $250 tooling cost, and $0.40/reflector for 1000units order. Total cost is $650. If there are 20 people the price would be around $30/unit, 100 people $6.5/unit. Here is their drawing. Would that work if used upside down?

!https://i.ibb.co/ZXm9jN3/Screen-Shot-2020-04-03-at-1-14-20-PM.png!

Math is a bit confusing there. For 1000 units for $650, the price comes out to $0.65/unit no matter what. For 20 people that would be $32.50 each, but they would be getting 50 reflectors. Similarly, for 100 people, $6.50 each but they get 10 units.

Yes, you are right. I assumed people would be interested in one or two reflectors only. Keep in mind that these would be for personal use, not commercial use.

I can ask the manufacturer if they would do a smaller quantity. Usually many manufacturers have MOQ so even if you order less units they still charge you about the same, otherwise it is not worth their time to get involved.


Yeah. So if it’s $650 either way, may as well get all the reflectors. And if only 20 people got 50 each, I’m sure they’d eventually be able to sell some of them later.

EDC Rotation: ZL SC62(w) | Jaxman E2L XP-G2 5A | Purple S2+ XPL-HI U6-3A | D4 w/ Luxeon V | RRT-01 | Purple FW3A, 4000K SST20
EagTac D25C Ti | DQG Slim AA Ti | Jaxman E3 | UF-T1 by CRX | Nitecore EX11.2
L6 XHP70.2 P2 4000K FET+7135 | Jaxman M8 | MF02 | Jaxman Z1 CULNM1.TG | Blue S2+ w/ ML Special
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Nice! If Enough people interested and price go down to a certain level I am interested too.

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