Copper S2+ limited edition

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led4power
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SKV89 wrote:
Together with a copper pill from kiriba-ru, this should enable triple emitters to maintain high output for very longer periods.

 

Copper has only 30% better volumetric spec. heat capacitance compared to aluminum, so theoretically if aluminum S2 reaches 60C in 30 seconds, copper S2 would reach it in 30*1.3=39 seconds.

But, because aluminum S2 is black and copper S2 is bare metal finish, black S2 will loose more heat via radiation, so difference would be less than 9 seconds.

Heat capacitance as method of cooling is double-edged sword, since it will also take more time for flashlight to cool down.

 

charles lin
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patmurris wrote:
justanotherguy wrote:
I got one a couple weeks ago.. Just weighed it, 175 grams or so…

Is that with pill and battery?

I was told about 173.5 grams without batteries & about 220 grams with a 30Q in it.
CrashOne
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Is there a modern fet+1 driver available? Maybe even one that works with a lighted switch?

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CrashOne wrote:
Is there a modern fet+1 driver available? Maybe even one that works with a lighted switch?

My plan if I try to build one is to use the BLF X5/X6 driver along with the lighted switch from the same. Both available on BG for about $11 combined. As far as I can tell that should be a drop in setup to give this thing superpowers and a glow-butt. Big Smile
Not to mention that driver comes with ToyKeeper’s Bistro firmware which is simply an outstanding UI.
Pezo
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led4power wrote:

Copper has only 30% better volumetric spec. heat capacitance compared to aluminum, so theoretically if aluminum S2 reaches 60C in 30 seconds, copper S2 would reach it in 30*1.3=39 seconds.


But, because aluminum S2 is black and copper S2 is bare metal finish, black S2 will loose more heat via radiation, so difference would be less than 9 seconds.


Heat capacitance as method of cooling is double-edged sword, since it will also take more time for flashlight to cool down.

I think most heat is transferred through conduction (into your hand) and convection (cold air moving around the light), cooling by radiation is negligible at the temperatures we’re talking about here. Thermal capacity also does nothing for cooling, only in the sense that we get a few seconds/minutes before the light steps down because of insufficient cooling.

Also, about radiation: what’s important is not the color something has for visible light but rather for infrared light. Anodized aluminium has a pretty good emissivity regardless of its visible color, so even if it were white it would be still as good; for copper, Wikipedia tells me, it makes a huge difference whether it’s polished or oxidized, so with polished copper, cooling by radiation would be considerably worse.

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patmurris wrote:
justanotherguy wrote:
I got one a couple weeks ago.. Just weighed it, 175 grams or so…

Is that with pill and battery?

light with pill, no battery

anyone in NE ILLinois into get togethers?

kiriba-ru
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Pezo wrote:

I think most heat is transferred through conduction (into your hand) and convection (cold air moving around the light), cooling by radiation is negligible at the temperatures we’re talking about here. Thermal capacity also does nothing for cooling, only in the sense that we get a few seconds/minutes before the light steps down because of insufficient cooling.


You hand wont transfert more than 3-4 watts.
I agree with led4power.
cu42
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Mine weighs 176g no battery on a cheap scale so who knows. It is coated with a clear or ano. I would like to know if it could be removed if anyone figures out what the coating is. I was hoping for raw copper, but its very nice. It has a slightly pink cast so I wonder about the alloy also.

patmurris
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cu42 wrote:
Mine weighs 176g no battery on a cheap scale so who knows. It is coated with a clear or ano. I would like to know if it could be removed if anyone figures out what the coating is. I was hoping for raw copper, but its very nice. It has a slightly pink cast so I wonder about the alloy also.

That sounds like most of the copper lights i have, mainly Astrolux’s. On a copper A01 i used some nail solvent or acetone and it worked well at removing the thin coating, whatever it was.

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led4power wrote:
SKV89 wrote:
Together with a copper pill from kiriba-ru, this should enable triple emitters to maintain high output for very longer periods.

Copper has only 30% better volumetric spec. heat capacitance compared to aluminum, so theoretically if aluminum S2 reaches 60C in 30 seconds, copper S2 would reach it in 30*1.3=39 seconds.

But, because aluminum S2 is black and copper S2 is bare metal finish, black S2 will loose more heat via radiation, so difference would be less than 9 seconds.

Heat capacitance as method of cooling is double-edged sword, since it will also take more time for flashlight to cool down.

Good points, although I think it’ll do better than 30% extra time, because the copper’s higher thermal conductivity will spread the heat more and make it comfortable to hold for longer.

For example, my Astrolux S41S gets very hot at the head, even while the tail is still cold, due to the poor thermal conductivity of stainless steel. It’s uncomfortable to hold normally at that point, because at least one finger will be touching the hot head.

My S2+ Desert Tan is comfortably warm at the tail by the time the head is uncomfortably hot, due to the better thermal conductivity of aluminium. The fact that more heat conducts rearwards buys extra time before the head finally gets too hot anyway.

I’m thinking that the copper S2+ will be more uniformly hot all over (but still safe) before the head finally gets too hot to hold, which would buy more time still before the user has to shut it down.

In short, I’m expecting to get the 30% extra from volumetric thermal capacity, plus some unknown extra percentage from the fact that copper’s higher thermal conductivity brings more of the light’s body into play, both to store heat and to dissipate it.

I’m looking forward to my chance to find out Smile

Just checked the AliExpress page: 33 orders placed, 17 units available. Not bad for 36 hours advertised only on BLF Thumbs Up

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If it only had a copper 18350 tube. If it did, I’d snatch one up in a heartbeat. Crying

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justanotherguy wrote:
I got one a couple weeks ago.. Just weighed it, 175 grams or so It is pinker than I would think, so some alloy?

“Fresh” Cu is actually a salmon-pink. Scour some Cu under running water and see.

In seconds, it oxidises and takes on that more orangey tinge.

I’m thinking, if it’s coated, it was freshly scrubbed and then immediately coated if it’s indeed pinkish.

That’s be pretty kewl… Big Smile

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Mmm, had to order one for a Smile gift. Host only, will be powered by an H1-A with a CRI90+ XHP50. For the price difference, Simon will add a requested 16mm 5050 DTP board, holster, diffuser and gift box. Love

 

Cheers Party

Pezo
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kiriba-ru wrote:
You hand wont transfert more than 3-4 watts. I agree with led4power.

That may well be, but radiation will account for milliwatts only.

I have no idea what power level can be sustained with an S2+ though, is it more than a couple watts?

kiriba-ru
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5-7 watts depends from air temperature.

eas
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patmurris wrote:
Sorry if this has been discussed in one of the multiple S2 modding thread, i can’t find a clear answer: is the A6 driver compatible with the S2+ and does the switch need replacement (the A6 driver needs a high amp forward clicky if i’m not mistaken)?

Essentially I’d like to turn this copper S2 into a copper A6…

The A6 is reverse clicky.

I replaced the stock 3/5 mode convoy driver in an aluminum S2+ with an A6 driver. It works.

I’ve paired mine with a SST-40 emitter on a DTP copper MCPCB. Rather than bypassing the tail spring, I doubled up the stock spring with a smaller phosphor bronze spring inside of it. On turbo, with a 30Q or an Aspire 18350 it is very bright and it heats up a lot, fast.

It’ll be better with a copper host, probably, but keep in mind that when it warms up, the click timing on the A6 driver gets wonky. It becomes almost impossible to reverse with a medium click, and half-clicks have to be fast, or the driver will get even more confused. Mountain electronics’ version of the driver uses better components and suffers much less from this problem.

.

patmurris
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eas wrote:
patmurris wrote:
Sorry if this has been discussed in one of the multiple S2 modding thread, i can’t find a clear answer: is the A6 driver compatible with the S2+ and does the switch need replacement (the A6 driver needs a high amp forward clicky if i’m not mistaken)?

Essentially I’d like to turn this copper S2 into a copper A6…

The A6 is reverse clicky.

I replaced the stock 3/5 mode convoy driver in an aluminum S2+ with an A6 driver. It works.

I’ve paired mine with a SST-40 emitter on a DTP copper MCPCB. Rather than bypassing the tail spring, I doubled up the stock spring with a smaller phosphor bronze spring inside of it. On turbo, with a 30Q or an Aspire 18350 it is very bright and it heats up a lot, fast.

It’ll be better with a copper host, probably, but keep in mind that when it warms up, the click timing on the A6 driver gets wonky. It becomes almost impossible to reverse with a medium click, and half-clicks have to be fast, or the driver will get even more confused. Mountain electronics’ version of the driver uses better components and suffers much less from this problem.

Thanks. I’ll swap drivers and see how it goes. Wink

led4power
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Pezo wrote:
That may well be, but radiation will account for milliwatts only.

Actually, convoy S2 sized light radiates 1-2 Watts at 60C (25C ambient), calculator is here:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html

Not much,but S2 has very small surface area, on bigger lights, or lights with fins, radiation can be very significant part of cooling.

 

 

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Where can I find the available options?

DB Custom
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I love seeing all the opinions, some closer to truth and some pretty outlandish.

FWIW, pure 100% oxygen free copper is orange in it’s raw state, bright beautiful orange. So is Tellurium Copper. Don’t believe me? Cut it on the lathe and see…

The pink hue comes from handling it….a reaction to the oils in your hand.

Pretty sure SinkPAD lists their copper stars at nearly twice the thermal capacitance of their aluminum stars, not 30% better. That should be worth something, considering the source. (Al’s 210.0 W/m.K, vs Cu’s 385.0 W/m.K) At 210.0 W/m.K * 30% the result would be 273 W/m.K, obviously copper fares much much better at ~83%+ gain over Aluminum.

I have a Hoop pill waiting for this light. Triple something or other it is! Big Smile

And I also just read recently that the anodizing gives Aluminum it’s thermal emissivity, the dye to change it’s color adds nothing… it is, after all, just dye in microscopic amounts…. (Type III being better than Type II as it’s a deeper ano)

Thanks JDub, and Simon, appreciate the willingness to please. Wink

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I can’t argue with led4power’s formula’s and calculators, but I don’t spend the money on Tellurium copper for no reason, or just because it’s pretty or heavy. My lights built with heavy copper pills maintain their output in the light box for longer times. I did the C8 Trifecta on this years ago using copper heat sinks from ryansoh. It was clearly obvious how much difference the copper pill made over the aluminum one.

Let us not forget, cooling the emitters is mission critical, not keeping our delicate fingers comfy. Wink

DB Custom
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Might also point out that a full copper light heats up everywhere, get’s hotter in your hands AND heat’s up the cell inside a lot faster. Not necessarily a good thing, in some ways…

Edit: Not trying to be critical in any way, honestly, but I’ve built almost as many lights as led4power has posts in this forum! For the most part, extreme hot rods every one. Wow, how the time flies!

Pezo
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led4power wrote:
Actually, convoy S2 sized light radiates 1-2 Watts at 60C (25C ambient), calculator is here:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html
Not much,but S2 has very small surface area, on bigger lights, or lights with fins, radiation can be very significant part of cooling.

You’re right, I used the light’s volume instead of its surface area when estimating the radiated heat Facepalm

I would’ve guessed for sure that convection and conduction do way more to transfer heat away. But of course it would be boring if I didn’t learn anything while being here Smile

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DB Custom wrote:
FWIW, pure 100% oxygen free copper is orange in it’s raw state, bright beautiful orange. So is Tellurium Copper. Don’t believe me? Cut it on the lathe and see…

The pink hue comes from handling it….a reaction to the oils in your hand.

Like I said, scour it under running water, before it gets the chance to oxidise (which happens almost instantly). It’ll be a salmon pink. Within seconds of exposure to air, it’ll have already turned that characteristic “copper color”.

It passivates almost instantly, so cutting it on a lathe, scouring it with steel wool, anything in air, and you’ll never see it in all its pink glory.

Take a slab of pc board, a Cu-bottom pan, etc., and try it.

So if something Cu is pickled and immediately coated, it can be a nice pink color.

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DB Custom
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“Within seconds…”

So when it’s spinning on the lathe and you’re cutting off the oxidized layer and watching the true nature of the metal spin around, you see it immediately, before air gets to it, under the oil, orange.

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Reaction (and color-change) is almost immediate.

Maybe tinged by oil, maybe at higher heat, etc., sure, I’ll believe you when you say that’s what you see, but just try what I suggested. Take a rather large flat(ish) piece of Cu, and under running water give it a good scour. It’ll be a bright salmon-pink. I’ve seen this. As soon as you stop scouring, even under water, it’ll start turning orangey. That’s how fast the oxidation is.

Again, don’t take my word for it; try it.

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Just for s&g…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copper_just_above_its_melting_point.jpg

“Copper just above its melting point keeps its pink color when enough light (the camera’s flash in this case) outshines the orange incandescence color.”

Hmm, and

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/29736/why-does-copper-prec...

“What you describe as pink is the actual colour of copper. The colour of a clean, solid surface of high-purity copper is typically salmon red. In your case, the appearance may be further affected by the particle size of the precipitate.”

Just sayin’…

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WalkIntoTheLight
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led4power wrote:

Actually, convoy S2 sized light radiates 1-2 Watts at 60C (25C ambient), calculator is here:


https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html


Not much,but S2 has very small surface area, on bigger lights, or lights with fins, radiation can be very significant part of cooling.


 


 

Doesn’t convection have a bigger impact on cooling than radiation? Certainly with a slight breeze it would, but even with still air it must have a pretty big effect. Anyone know the actual number?

led4power
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Convection is dominant part of cooling, otherwise flashlight would become hot much faster.

WalkIntoTheLight
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Well, as a rough guess, most small lights that are thermally regulated seem to stabilize their output at about 500 lumens, if you tail-stand them. That’s about 5 watts of power, with maybe 50% going OTF in light? If you’re saying 1 – 2 watts of that is radiative, then that leaves only 0.5 – 1.5 watts for convection.

Doesn’t sound like enough. I thought convective cooling would be 3 or 4 times what radiative cooling can do.

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