My ACEBEAM EC65 XHP35 HI is dead (Now fixed!)

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toobadorz
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My ACEBEAM EC65 XHP35 HI is dead (Now fixed!)

I purchased this flashlight a few days ago, and started to measure its run-time curves since then.

I tested this flashlight with the following batteries:

  • ACEBEAM 21700 5100mAh: A protected battery that came with EC65. I suspect this should be a Samsung INR21700-50E. The internal resistance measured is 30.7mΩ (with YR1030). 5017mAh/17.922Wh is obtained after 1A discharged down to 2.5V.

  • Samsung INR21700-48G: The internal resistance measured is 15.32mΩ. 4758mAh/16.863Wh is obtained after 1A discharged down to 2.5V. HKJ's review can be found here.

  • LISHEN LR2170SA: LISHEN is a known li-ion manufacturer from China, and this cell is a good one. LiitoKala also sells the re-wrap of this cell. The internal resistance measured is 14.61mΩ. 4056mAh/14.858Wh is obtained after 1A discharged down to 2.5V. HKJ's review can be found here

  • ACEBEAM 18650 3100mAh: A protected battery that came with my ACEBEAM H15. I suspect this should be a Samsung INR18650-30Q. The internal resistance measured is 23.4mΩ. 2972mAh/10.677Wh is obtained after 1A discharged down to 2.5V.

  

NOTE: the lumen numbers mentioned below are rough estimations, and by no means should be considered as accurate.

   

First, I tested the EC65 Turbo mode with these batteries.

The LISHEN battery can sustain the ~3700 lumen Turbo until the thermal step-down kicks-in, while the other three cannot. All the other three batteries can only sustain ~3700 lumens for less than 25 seconds then the output will drop to ~3100 lumens. Then the maximum output you can get at Turbo mode will be ~3100 lumens or less, even after cooling down the flashlight.

  

Then I conducted more extended experiments on Turbo mode. I repeated the following process to measure the approximated output curve of Turbo.

  • Turn on EC65 at Turbo.

  • Turn off EC65 when the thermal stepdown kicks-in.

  • Apply cooling to EC65 (with two fans, for at least 5 minutes).

Some findings from this result:

  • The Turbo mode of EC65 will decrease its output in accordance with the battery voltage. ~3700 lumens → ~3100 lumens → ~2700 lumens → ~2300 lumens.

  • The three batteries (ACEBEAM 21700 5100mAhSamsung INR21700-48GACEBEAM 18650 3100mAh) can only sustain ~3700 lumens for a very short period. So with these batteries you'd better consider EC65 as a 3000~3100 lumen flashlight.

  • When conducting this experiment with the LISHEN LR2170SA battery, EC65 stopped working after several seconds and turned out to be dead after I cooled EC65 for the first time then started the 2nd round of Turbo.

  

It looks like something within EC65 (some circuit component?) cannot afford the ~3700 lumen load for a longer period, so when a more powerful (high-drain) battery is given, this vulnerability is exposed. I guess this problem is more easily to be found if tested with a even more powerful 21700 battery, for example, Samsung INR21700-40T and INR21700-30T.

  

I plan to report this problem to ACEBEAM. Before ACEBEAM solve this problem, you'd better not use a true high drain battery with EC65.

  

EDIT: I received a new EC65 from ACEBEAM. The new test results are as follows.

This new EC65 is able to sustain the extended Turbo test and performs noticeably better than the dead one.  The highest output is now fairly close to 4000 lumens (~4100 lumens @0s, ~3900 lumens @30s).  This number is no longer a single burst, it can last for ~3.5 minutes with the included 21700 battery.  And, the new EC65 is more efficient as well.  

It's good to see ACEBEAM fix this problem quickly, I'm impressed!

Edited by: toobadorz on 06/20/2018 - 11:11
hIKARInoob
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Wow. Thanks a lot for sharing.

1) Interesting that output decreases with depleting cell voltage. Unlike the Emisar D4 with FET driver, the EC65 uses a boost driver which could have been designed for constant output, and this would have been an advantage over the D4.
2) It seems it’s a win for the D4 with the FET driver when it comes to reliability.

maukka
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My EC65 died with the supplied battery on turbo after being on for about 30 seconds. Acebeam said they have fixed the problem since and I’m getting another one next week. I wonder if yours is the newer batch since it was able to take much more punishment than mine.

toobadorz
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Yes, ACEBEAM products seem to regulate its output on Turbo when possible, and step down a bit when the battery voltage is too low. I found similar characteristics when testing my EC50 II, EC50 III, EC60, L30, etc. I personally prefer this behavior.

toobadorz
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maukka wrote:
My EC65 died with the supplied battery on turbo after being on for about 30 seconds. Acebeam said they have fixed the problem since and I’m getting another one next week. I wonder if yours is the newer batch since it was able to take much more punishment than mine.

Well, maybe you can torture your new EC65 with Samsung 30T/40T and see what heppens. I got no chance to do so before its death Big Smile

maukka
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Yes, just ordered some 30T and Lishens just for this purpose Smile

toobadorz
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maukka wrote:
Yes, just ordered some 30T and Lishens just for this purpose Smile

Awesome!

desmondkun
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Thanks for sharing.

Still good since it died peacefully and nothing dangerous happened.

Take care of your flashlight and your flashlight will take care of you.

EasyB
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That’s a very powerful boost driver, but that means the driver electronics have to dissipate a lot of heat, probably 5W or more, which is a new challenge in the confines of a small flashlight cavity.

will34
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EasyB wrote:
That’s a very powerful boost driver, but that means the driver electronics have to dissipate a lot of heat, probably 5W or more, which is a new challenge in the confines of a small flashlight cavity.

Yeah pretty impressive for a non-fet driver to take 10A+ on the input

SKV89
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Thanks for the review and info. Does this use the same noctigon pcb and carclo optic as the D4?

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hIKARInoob wrote:
Wow. Thanks a lot for sharing.

1) Interesting that output decreases with depleting cell voltage. Unlike the Emisar D4 with FET driver, the EC65 uses a boost driver which could have been designed for constant output, and this would have been an advantage over the D4.
2) It seems it’s a win for the D4 with the FET driver when it comes to reliability.


Boost drivers lose efficiency the more difference there is between input and output voltages.
If the output voltage remains constant and the input voltage drops, the amount of current it can deliver decreases significantly, so it steps down to a lower mode.
I assume you’re talking about the large steep drops in output.

If you’re talking about the slightly inclined output line which isn’t perfectly horizontal, that’s because of heat.

hIKARInoob
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Enderman wrote:
hIKARInoob wrote:
Wow. Thanks a lot for sharing.

1) Interesting that output decreases with depleting cell voltage. Unlike the Emisar D4 with FET driver, the EC65 uses a boost driver which could have been designed for constant output, and this would have been an advantage over the D4.
2) It seems it’s a win for the D4 with the FET driver when it comes to reliability.


Boost drivers lose efficiency the more difference there is between input and output voltages.
If the output voltage remains constant and the input voltage drops, the amount of current it can deliver decreases significantly, so it steps down to a lower mode.
I assume you’re talking about the large steep drops in output.

If you’re talking about the slightly inclined output line which isn’t perfectly horizontal, that’s because of heat.

I know this is the case in theory, but I don’t know to what extent this is the case in practice. The M43 (3S4P) is able to produce max output with cells as low as 3.5V, and the Imalent DN70, although with a 6V emitter, can produce flat turbo output until cell is depleted as well. https://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/threads/review-imalent-dn70-und-samme...
Of course neither these two lights have a boost voltage of 12V, but if the latter turns out to be a hurdle, then I’d preferred something like a 2S2P setup for the Nichia leds, and instead of XHP35 use XP-L in 2S2P. Why complicate it with a 12V XHP35?
I understand there is a qualitative complexity with increasing boost voltage, but I don’t see this should result in a quantitative behaviour that output cannot remain flat.

toobadorz
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SKV89 wrote:
Thanks for the review and info. Does this use the same noctigon pcb and carclo optic as the D4?

It’s indeed using a Carclo optic, however the MCPCB used doesn’t seem to be a NOCTIGON.

toobadorz
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hIKARInoob wrote:
I understand there is a qualitative complexity with increasing boost voltage, but I don’t see this should result in a quantitative behaviour that output cannot remain flat.

The possible reasons I can think about:

The bundled battery is not a true high drain one, and ~10A should be the maximum load it can sustain.

EC65 will report a warning (triple flashes for every 5 seconds) when the battery voltage is too low. The lower the battery voltage, the higher the input current is needed for the boost driver to maintain a constant output. And the higher the input current, the more battery voltage sag. That means if the driver keeps the constant output until the low voltage warning, the battery voltage sag will be far too high. And then even though the warning is given on Turbo, there is still much energy remaining unused in the battery.

maukka
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toobadorz wrote:
The bundled battery is not a true high drain one, and ~10A should be the maximum load it can sustain.

Yeah, the ones I have are 38 and 41mOhm (DC IR). So they’re a bit worse than a VTC5A (30mOhm), on the same level as a decent sample of a 30Q (mine vary a lot, from 30 to 60mOhm).

toobadorz
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maukka wrote:
toobadorz wrote:
The bundled battery is not a true high drain one, and ~10A should be the maximum load it can sustain.

Yeah, the ones I have are 38 and 41mOhm (DC IR). So they’re a bit worse than a VTC5A (30mOhm), on the same level as a decent sample of a 30Q (mine vary a lot, from 30 to 60mOhm).

Thanks. With YR1030, my measured IRs are: 13~14mΩ (unprotected 30Q/VTC6), ~10mΩ (unprotected VTC5A), 14~15mΩ (unprotected PLB 26650-55A), and 30~31mΩ (ACEBEAM bundled 21700).

Maybe you need a similar 4 terminal device for resistance measurement, so as to eliminate the effects like contact resistance?

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Reading this thread… yikes!

I’m intrigued by this light. 21700 support, a nice looking quad, and Acebeam. I only own one other Acebeam (UC15), but was impressed with its quality, output and UI.

However, for $122 I don’t think I want to buy a light that goes poof after just 30 seconds on turbo.

hIKARInoob
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Firelight2 wrote:
However, for $122 I don’t think I want to buy a light that goes poof after just 30 seconds on turbo.

Don’t worry, it’s not a $122 light that goes poof after 30 seconds.

… It’s actually a $139.90 light that goes poof after 30 seconds… Facepalmhttp://www.acebeam.com/ec65

SKV89
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toobadorz wrote:
SKV89 wrote:
Thanks for the review and info. Does this use the same noctigon pcb and carclo optic as the D4?

It’s indeed using a Carclo optic, however the MCPCB used doesn’t seem to be a NOCTIGON.

Does it look replaceable with a noctigon mcpcb?

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hIKARInoob wrote:

I know this is the case in theory, but I don’t know to what extent this is the case in practice. The M43 (3S4P) is able to produce max output with cells as low as 3.5V, and the Imalent DN70, although with a 6V emitter, can produce flat turbo output until cell is depleted as well. https://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/threads/review-imalent-dn70-und-samme...
Of course neither these two lights have a boost voltage of 12V, but if the latter turns out to be a hurdle, then I’d preferred something like a 2S2P setup for the Nichia leds, and instead of XHP35 use XP-L in 2S2P. Why complicate it with a 12V XHP35?
I understand there is a qualitative complexity with increasing boost voltage, but I don’t see this should result in a quantitative behaviour that output cannot remain flat.

The Meteor M43 does boost to almost 12V! It drives four 3S-LED strings in parallel from a 3.7V battery at 90W. It’s very likely then it can boost to 12V.

The difference between it and the Acebeam is that the Meteor driver is much larger and thus has less heat problems. Also, it wasn’t designed by Acebeam. Wink They go a little bit too close to the absolute limits of the driver components. I actually discussed this with somebody last year who took a look at one of their for drivers (the max current rating of the diodes of his driver was too low).

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It’s honestly amazing what the Noctigon Meteor M43 did.

They are getting 90W at 3,6V, then boosting it to almost 12V.

It also has a massive inductor, so if the cells were in series, I would be willing to bet it could probably achieve 180W.

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Does anyone know the driver size, 17mm? 20mm?

I assume it’s getting 1000 lumen from each emitter. Maybe 1A each at 12v for roughly 4A out of the driver and about a 20A draw on the battery?

Has anyone measured the battery amp draw?

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

10 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

toobadorz
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SKV89 wrote:
toobadorz wrote:
SKV89 wrote:
Thanks for the review and info. Does this use the same noctigon pcb and carclo optic as the D4?

It’s indeed using a Carclo optic, however the MCPCB used doesn’t seem to be a NOCTIGON.

Does it look replaceable with a noctigon mcpcb?

Sorry, I have sent the faulty EC65 back to ACEBEAM today, so I’m unable to identify this.

texas shooter
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So mine is coming in the mail tomorrow. Being in 100 degree Texas, I’m wondering if it’s a quick death. I’ve been wanting this one since it popped up on the radar. 82 grams might be just too lightweight for the lights output. I see possible driver improvements and total potting.

toobadorz
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I received a new EC65 from ACEBEAM today. Will update the new test result here once it is done.

JasonWW
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toobadorz wrote:
I received a new EC65 from ACEBEAM today. Will update the new test result here once it is done.

Did Acebeam say they found and fixed the problem and sent you an updated version or did they send you another one like you had which might not last?

I was expecting them to take a few weeks before they sent you another. Maybe they though your damaged one was a fluke?

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

10 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

toobadorz
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JasonWW wrote:
toobadorz wrote:
I received a new EC65 from ACEBEAM today. Will update the new test result here once it is done.

Did Acebeam say they found and fixed the problem and sent you an updated version or did they send you another one like you had which might not last?

I was expecting them to take a few weeks before they sent you another. Maybe they though your damaged one was a fluke?

They assured me that this problem has been fixed in the new one I received.

To avoid the unexpected quick death again, this time I’m planning to finish all the other tests of my interest first, and after that, I’ll do the accumulated turbo measurement again to see if the driver can sustain it.

JasonWW
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toobadorz wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
toobadorz wrote:
I received a new EC65 from ACEBEAM today. Will update the new test result here once it is done.

Did Acebeam say they found and fixed the problem and sent you an updated version or did they send you another one like you had which might not last?

I was expecting them to take a few weeks before they sent you another. Maybe they though your damaged one was a fluke?

They assured me that this problem has been fixed in the new one I received.


Wow, that’s fast on their part.

One thing is bothering me, though. If we go back to the stock battery, it seems to run for about 16 seconds before ramping down. Is this due to voltage sag?

How many times can you use that 16 second turbo before the battery can’t do it anymore? Once? Twice?

It makes me wonder if they should even classify this as a 4000 lumen light.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

10 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

toobadorz
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JasonWW wrote:

One thing is bothering me, though. If we go back to the stock battery, it seems to run for about 16 seconds before ramping down. Is this due to voltage sag?

How many times can you use that 16 second turbo before the battery can’t do it anymore? Once? Twice?

It makes me wonder if they should even classify this as a 4000 lumen light.

I hasn’t tested the new EC65 yet, but for the old one, as you can see in the accumulated turbo curve, it’s less than 20 seconds, only one time. And that’s why I was torturing it with a more high drain LISHEN battery.

maukka
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JasonWW wrote:
[One thing is bothering me, though. If we go back to the stock battery, it seems to run for about 16 seconds before ramping down. Is this due to voltage sag?

Very slight differences in the battery internal resistance affect the turbo stepdown. One of my Acebeam 21700s manages 12 seocnds, one 32 seconds.

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