What is the best high capacity 18650 battery?

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klrman
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WalkIntoTheLight wrote:
[ This was talked about in another thread. Apparently, liionwholesale is strictly obeying shipping rules from USPS, and it basically makes it cost-prohibitive to use them. So, they use UPS, which is (1) Way more expensive, and (2) You're going to get burned with additional brokerage fees and taxes when your order arrives in Canada. It makes ordering batteries from liionwholesale ridiculously expensive for Canadians. So, forget about buying from them. Instead, I've placed a couple of battery orders from Illumn this year. They will use USPS. It costs $15 shipping, but I think that's for any order size. You won't have to pay additional fees and taxes when you get your order, either. Much less expensive than liionwholesale, and they're genuine batteries and extremely well packaged. (Cells in plastic cases, inside a padded cardboard box, inside a bubble-wrap package.) Anyway, I know liionwholesale gets a lot of kudos here, but I'm guessing that's just from US customers. Oh, one other issue I have with them is that they won't guarantee your order, and make you sign a waiver saying that any losses are your problem. What's with that? They're the only retailer I know that does that.

 

How could I forget about Illumn, they are the best of the best.  Need to order from them right away as they back their products 100%+

pennzy
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Yeah, you are right about lllum. Apparently they haven’t changed their shipping fees to reflect the new rules. (according to liionWholesale here). Get um while you can .

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All three cells are good.. you will use them accordingly to your flashlight needs.

Example

Blf gt xhp35.. it doesnt matter. as long as 10a or above are fine.. lg mj1 is fine.

Some xhp70.2 might need samsung 30q, or higher end sony cells.

TheIntruder
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Without HKJ and Mooch, we’d be in a poorer place.

And if anyone ever finds themselves within proximity of Illumn in California, I’d urge you to stop by the B&M store (weekdays only), even if just passing by like I did. Those guys are laid back and very much enthusiasts, and have a tonne of stuff on display.

Better leave your credit card in the car, though, if you can’t resist temptation.

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How about the LG INR18650-M36 3600mAh – 10A?

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FlashTom wrote:
How about the LG INR18650-M36 3600mAh - 10A?
As I said before, the manufacturer ratings on the cells are BS and don't represent real world performance and usable currents like in a flashlight. Always look at reliable test data from people like HKJ

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/LG%2018650%20M36%203600mAh%20(Cyan)%20UK.html

Macka17
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Just wondering.
Here in AUST. we buy most avail items from China, Eastern country’s. Incl battery’s.
We pay no freight charges. unless a coupla $$‘s for tracking on exxy torches etc.

IE 4 × 30Q del to door. $18.60AUD. BLF L6 Del $88.00 AUD.
full prices I paid, not coupons.
Lion seems to be US/Canada only. NO access to AUST.

I never buy anything from US anymore. their freight even for letter size is ridiculous.
Your US/Canada would have to be politics. Yes.

We used to send presents to a coupla NC Neices and son.
Freight was always 3 or 4 times more than cost of parcels.
Nowadays. just transfer some cash.

klrman
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Macka17 wrote:
Just wondering. Here in AUST. we buy most avail items from China, Eastern country's. Incl battery's. We pay no freight charges. unless a coupla $$'s for tracking on exxy torches etc. IE 4 x 30Q del to door. $18.60AUD. BLF L6 Del $88.00 AUD. full prices I paid, not coupons. Lion seems to be US/Canada only. NO access to AUST. I never buy anything from US anymore. their freight even for letter size is ridiculous. Your US/Canada would have to be politics. Yes. We used to send presents to a coupla NC Neices and son. Freight was always 3 or 4 times more than cost of parcels. Nowadays. just transfer some cash.

 

Getting harder for us Canadians as well.  Very few US companies have reasonable shipping to Canada anymore.  That is why I purchased many batteries from Banggood to stock  up.  Got more than I need right now and glad I did.  Illumn in the US is still the best price to send batteries to Canada but you still end up paying about 50% or more than buying the same batteries from Banggood.  Right now BG does not ship to Canada again.

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The cost being so high for ordering cells inside of Canada is because the shipping permits for shipping lithium ion are prohibitively expensive, being about 10 000$US, and because the regulations in Canada are even tighter than the ones in the US.

That is a recipe for a price and competition trap: since it costs so much to get a permit, and even if you can pay, that is hard to get, there are very few players selling lithium ion cells, and there being little competition, prices are sky high for lithium ion cells sold separately.

TLDR: I hate the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 for making shipping 18650s that are safer extremely hard and expensive to do so.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

JasonWW
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Local vape shops may carry 18650. That market is much larger than flashlights.

BlueSwordM
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They do… at insane prices.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

mrheosuper
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Enderman wrote:

FlashTom wrote:
How about the LG INR18650-M36 3600mAh – 10A?
As I said before, the manufacturer ratings on the cells are BS and don’t represent real world performance and usable currents like in a flashlight. Always look at reliable test data from people like HKJ

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/LG%2018650%20M36%203600mAh%20(Cyan)%20UK.html


i disagree with you
the rating is not BS, it’s all true, all their figures is true and measured, it’s not BS like ultrafire 9800mah
“don’t represent real world performance “, just to remind you that real world doesn’t only have flashlight, there are other low power devices that run on 18650 cell, even some flashlights have very low discharging current, not all flashlight need more than 1A

Forgot my pen

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mrheosuper wrote:
Enderman wrote:

FlashTom wrote:
How about the LG INR18650-M36 3600mAh – 10A?
As I said before, the manufacturer ratings on the cells are BS and don’t represent real world performance and usable currents like in a flashlight. Always look at reliable test data from people like HKJ

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/LG%2018650%20M36%203600mAh%20(Cyan)%20UK.html


i disagree with you
the rating is not BS, it’s all true, all their figures is true and measured, it’s not BS like ultrafire 9800mah
“don’t represent real world performance “, just to remind you that real world doesn’t only have flashlight, there are other low power devices that run on 18650 cell, even some flashlights have very low discharging current, not all flashlight need more than 1A
I agree mrheosuper, I think the few reputable brands are pretty honest with their claimed ratings. Thumbs Up . Sony, Sanyo, Samsung, LG, & Panasonic… to name five.

And whoever makes the 26650 LittoKala 5000 mAh.

But, my ‘BLF Brother’; it is hard to believe that you only mention the 9800mah TrustFire 18650 when it has clearly been surpassed as ‘the latest & greatest’!!

See picture below & get with the program my friend. Wink . Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile
.

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

raccoon city
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teacher
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raccoon city wrote:


 

Dang, looks like I need to “get with the program” also!! Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

Sign me up for a couple dozen of those…. Wink

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

klrman
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GIF, known by many for outstanding quality and unbeatable capacity Big Smile

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This pic is a favorite of mine.

Sick
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JasonWW wrote:
This pic is a favorite of mine.

There is no sand for the "right weight"?... I'm disappointed))))))))

klrman
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JasonWW wrote:
This pic is a favorite of mine. !{width:95%}https://lightsngear.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/bad-18650.jpg! }P

 

Still the best pic out there.  Should be posted on every battery thread.

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mrheosuper wrote:

i disagree with you
the rating is not BS, it’s all true, all their figures is true and measured, it’s not BS like ultrafire 9800mah
“don’t represent real world performance “, just to remind you that real world doesn’t only have flashlight, there are other low power devices that run on 18650 cell, even some flashlights have very low discharging current, not all flashlight need more than 1A

Clearly you need to do some research and look at tests of the cells.
Maybe then you can explain why some 3600mAh rated cell magically performs worse than a different brand 3400 or 3500mAh rated cell.
eas
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Enderman wrote:
mrheosuper wrote:
i disagree with you the rating is not BS, it’s all true, all their figures is true and measured, it’s not BS like ultrafire 9800mah “don’t represent real world performance “, just to remind you that real world doesn’t only have flashlight, there are other low power devices that run on 18650 cell, even some flashlights have very low discharging current, not all flashlight need more than 1A
Clearly you need to do some research and look at tests of the cells. Maybe then you can explain why some 3600mAh rated cell magically performs worse than a different brand 3400 or 3500mAh rated cell.

It would be ridiculous for me to say: “The SYNIOSBEAM’s output specs are complete BS. It’s expensive and huge, and it doesn’t even light up my back yard as well as the modded $20 BLF A6 I carry in my back pocket.” Right?

That’s pretty much what you are saying about battery ratings.

Manufacturers claims are based on measurements made under specified conditions. They almost certainly go to some lengths to make sure that their measurements are repeatable over short and long periods with regular, traceable calibration of their equipment. I don’t know what their sample size is, but I am sure it is more than a couple of cells.

HJKs tests are careful, he may not be controlling conditions are carefully as a manufacturer might, but I don’t think people should have any reasons to doubt his results. His results often differ from those in manufacturer datasheets not because their ratings are bogus, or that his testing is more or less careful than their; they differ because he tests to a different standard, and one more tailored to flashlight use. He also rarely/never, tests more than two cells, and the cells he tests are often of uncertain provenance.

Two of the major components of every flashlight, the emitter and the battery, are not designed and specified for the flashlight market. That makes it particularly important to understand the assumptions underlying the manufacturer specs. Independent tests to flashlight-oriented standards are very helpful in their own right, and for better understanding the mfg provided secs. Calling the manufacturer provided specs “BS” both cultivates ignorance, and makes the independent tests less useful.

.

Enderman
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eas wrote:

It would be ridiculous for me to say: “The SYNIOSBEAM’s output specs are complete BS. It’s expensive and huge, and it doesn’t even light up my back yard as well as the modded $20 BLF A6 I carry in my back pocket.” Right?

Well you’re right, the cost per output is probably the lowest of any LED flashlight that exists Silly less than 800 lumens.
Obviously it’s not meant for lighting up back yards Wink

eas wrote:

Two of the major components of every flashlight, the emitter and the battery, are not designed and specified for the flashlight market. That makes it particularly important to understand the assumptions underlying the manufacturer specs. Independent tests to flashlight-oriented standards are very helpful in their own right, and for better understanding the mfg provided secs. Calling the manufacturer provided specs “BS” both cultivates ignorance, and makes the independent tests less useful.

Ok then maybe I should say “the manufacturer specs are completely irrelevant to our flashlight applications and a 3600mAh cell will not always outperform a 3500mAh rated cell so independent high current tests (1-10A) need to be looked at for the actual performance.”
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The usefullness of high capacity cells are over rated, IMHO.

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JasonWW wrote:
Thr usefullness of high capacity cells are over rated, IMHO.

I think for most flashlights, a high-capacity cell is more important than a high-drain cell. Most lights won’t use more than about 5 amps from a cell. Something like the Sanyo GA (3500mAh 10amp) cell gives noticeably longer run-times than a Samsung 30Q (3000mAh 15amp).

Using my Zebralight SC600w MkIV Plus on my bike, set to a constant output of 700 lumens, I get almost 3 hours of run-time on a GA battery, compared to almost 2.5 hours on a 30Q or VTC6. And since I like to give myself 0.5 – 1.0 hours of extra time (to look for a good place to change batteries), that works out to a battery change about every 2 hours with a GA, or 1.5 hours with a 30Q.

The high-capacity 3500mAh cell means that on a 4 hour bike ride, I only need to change the battery once. With a slightly lower capacity 3000mAh cell, I’m probably going to change it twice (or risk cutting it too close). It makes a real difference.

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WalkIntoTheLight wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
Thr usefullness of high capacity cells are over rated, IMHO.

I think for most flashlights, a high-capacity cell is more important than a high-drain cell. Most lights won’t use more than about 5 amps from a cell. Something like the Sanyo GA (3500mAh 10amp) cell gives noticeably longer run-times than a Samsung 30Q (3000mAh 15amp).

Using my Zebralight SC600w MkIV Plus on my bike, set to a constant output of 700 lumens, I get almost 3 hours of run-time on a GA battery, compared to almost 2.5 hours on a 30Q or VTC6. And since I like to give myself 0.5 – 1.0 hours of extra time (to look for a good place to change batteries), that works out to a battery change about every 2 hours with a GA, or 1.5 hours with a 30Q.

The high-capacity 3500mAh cell means that on a 4 hour bike ride, I only need to change the battery once. With a slightly lower capacity 3000mAh cell, I’m probably going to change it twice (or risk cutting it too close). It makes a real difference.


I guess I should explain a bit further.

High-capacity cells are only an advantage if you run them all the way down to the low voltage protection and your using relatively low output levels.

I think both of these apply to your particular scenario.

I, on the other hand, tend to recharge my batteries once they’re down to 3.6 or 3.7 volts. That’s when they’ve lost the majority of their power.

I also tend to prefer longer max runtimes over longer lower level runtimes. The boost driver in the Zebralight SC600w MkIV Plus is going to experience higher voltage sag on turbo using the Sanyo GA which will reduce it’s total turbo run time. The 30Q will keep the voltage higher allowing for more total run time on turbo.

My point being that the average person just assumes high capacity cells are better because the number is higher. It’s only better in very specific situations, so people should choose the battery that best fits their needs.

I was trying to avoid having to say all this WalkIntoTheLight. Thanks for making me have to type it all out. Silly Big Smile

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Okay, I see what you’re saying. FET drivers tend to make extra capacity less useful, since you need to keep the battery mostly charged to get good performance (even with high-drain cells). That is why I prefer constant-current boost drivers (such as Zebralights) where the entire capacity of the battery can be used.

Though, most of my lights don’t have boost drivers, so I tend to use 30Q’s in them. The GA’s are saved for the Zebras.

Even at max output (2300 lumens), I don’t think the Zebra Plus uses anywhere close to the 10 amp rating of the GA battery. I think it’s somewhere between 6 amps (full charge) and 8 amps (near empty). Maybe even a bit less.

I can’t think of a higher output single-emitter light that uses a single 18650. So, using a 10 amp cell (such as the Sanyo GA) in a single-emitter flashlight seems pretty safe to do. But, yeah, if you’re running it close to 10 amps, a higher drain cell might perform a bit better.

Edit: Looking at the graphs, at 5 amps the 30Q has 10Wh of energy, and the GA has 11Wh. I think the GA wins, except perhaps when you use it at really high drains. Though, the GA sags about 0.1v more than the 30Q, so a FET driver would like the 30Q more (but with less run time).

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In cold temps only around 30% of the energy in a GA or other high-capacity cell is useable. High-drain cells like the 30Q still give you around 80%.

See here.

I use my lights more in the winter than in the summer…

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That was a nice find, thanks The_Driver   Further down there is a another chart and the Sony VCT6 was nearly as good as the 30Q in cold temps.  LG HG2 was not far behind either.  I use my lights far more in Winter too so I should stock up on more 30Qs.

 

Quote from Megalodon in that thread: 

"being said, I personally think the 30Q more and more, according to different testing convinced me of the battery more and more and more .... No matter what kind of applications. It seems to me that the 30Q is the universal cell for everything. Amazing what Samsung has brought to the market!"

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WalkIntoTheLight wrote:
Okay, I see what you’re saying. FET drivers tend to make extra capacity less useful, since you need to keep the battery mostly charged to get good performance (even with high-drain cells). That is why I prefer constant-current boost drivers (such as Zebralights) where the entire capacity of the battery can be used.

No, your misunderstanding.

FET drivers do not tend to make extra capacity less useful. I don’t know where you got this idea from. Where did a different driver design come from? I was only talking about boost drivers.

Take a look at this battery comparison.

Regardless of the driver design, the high capacity battery gives you it’s extra bit of capacity only below 3.3v (with a 5A load). So to get the extra run time, you need to be running your batteries down until the low voltage protection kicks in (which you do). Thats my first point and it has nothing to do with driver design.

WalkIntoTheLight wrote:

Even at max output (2300 lumens), I don’t think the Zebra Plus uses anywhere close to the 10 amp rating of the GA battery. I think it’s somewhere between 6 amps (full charge) and 8 amps (near empty). Maybe even a bit less.


Again, I see errors.

The GA cell is rated for 10A continous, but it can actually do more than that. It can pull 15A, but not continously as it gets too hot. The way a boost driver works has a lot to do with feeding it amperage at a high voltage. Voltage losses in the springs, etc… can cause the boost driver to not maintain turbo for very long. The higher you can keep the voltage (while under load), the longer it will run at turbo (excluding heat related step downs).

An 18650 cell is a set container size full of the chemical mix of elements (lithium, etc…). If the manufacturer wants to maximize the batteries run capacity he can’t make the package bigger, he has to instead tweak the mix of battery chemicals to get it. This compromises other characteristics of the battery such as limiting it’s max discharge ability and it having more voltage sag under load.

Even if a boost drivers max battery draw is only 8A, the extra voltage sag is what can really hurt it. It reduces it’s ability to run at turbo for long periods. If you needed to run it at turbo a lot (like I need to), you would want the higher drain 30Q battery. Since you run it at only 700 lumen, you don’t notice this reduced turbo run time.

Here is a cool chart Maukka did on the Acebeam EC65 which uses a high power boost driver. He tested a high capacity Acebeam battery against a high drain Samsung 30T.

You can see that the Acebeam battery only allowed full power turbo to be activated one time for about 2.5 minutes. After that it’s voltage was too low to allow it any more. The 30T’s lesser voltage sag allowed six more applications of full turbo!

You can also see that the higher capacity Acebeam battery allowed for more run time at the lower levels. Normally it would not be that much extra but this comparison was between the 30T which is only 3000mah and the Acebeam cell which was about 5000mah. So a big gap in capacity. With a 3000mah and 3500mah cell it’s a smaller gap. Still, the high drain will allow for more turbo run time while the high capacity will run a bit longer (as long as you let it run until LVP kicks in)

I personally would rather run the Zebra Plus with a 30Q because turbo times are more important to me than maximum low level run times plus I don’t like running the voltage down too far. So it all depends on how you use the light and your needs.

I forget my point, but I hope this all makes sense.

WalkIntoTheLight wrote:

I can’t think of a higher output single-emitter light that uses a single 18650. So, using a 10 amp cell (such as the Sanyo GA) in a single-emitter flashlight seems pretty safe to do. But, yeah, if you’re running it close to 10 amps, a higher drain cell might perform a bit better.

Your Zebra Plus is not single emitter. It’s a quad die. There are many other higher powered 18650 boost driver lights out there.
WalkIntoTheLight wrote:

Edit: Looking at the graphs, at 5 amps the 30Q has 10Wh of energy, and the GA has 11Wh. I think the GA wins, except perhaps when you use it at really high drains. Though, the GA sags about 0.1v more than the 30Q, so a FET driver would like the 30Q more (but with less run time).

I’m not sure where you are getting the 10 and 11 Wh from. Can you explain?

When I look at the graph I posted above I see the 5A curve showing the 30Q high drain delivering more power from 4.2 volts down to 3.3 volts. From there on down, the GA has the advantage.

At 7A the crossover point is 3.2v

At 10A the crossover point is 3.1v

The FET and the Boost both prefer the high drain battery. Both driver designs will deliver the same amount of light on the same battery, it’s just the way they deliver that light that changes.

With a boost driver you get steps in output. It’s either steady output or no output (not counting thermal protection ramping it down).

With a FET driver you don’t get steps, per se. When you remove the thermal related stuff, you get a steady sloping downward curve as voltage drops. The FET starts at a higher output, that’s it’s advantage. The Boost driver starts at a lower max level, but it’s a steady output. That’s it’s advantage.

For your particular needs with that particular light, the GA makes more sense over the 30Q. It lets you squeeze a bit more run time from the lower levels. Plus you don’t really miss the reduced turbo runtimes. It’s a win, win (for you).

Whew, that’s too much writing. Let me know if you have any other specific questions.

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klrman wrote:

That was a nice find, thanks The_Driver   Further down there is a another chart and the Sony VCT6 was nearly as good as the 30Q in cold temps.

Yes, they all use the same type of chemistry and thus behave similarily. I would always get the cheapest of the three. The differences are too small to be of note.

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