Imalent MS12

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JasonWW
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klrman wrote:
Imalent has some sketchy specs in that regard and I don’t know how they get away with it.

It’s very simple how they get away with it. It’s because nobody enforces or checks them. They can pretty much say whatever they want and there’s no real consequences.

Publishing these specifications for output and waterproofness is all done as a courtesy, like on a handshake deal. There are no rules and regulations. They can’t be held accountable if it doesn’t live up to those specs.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

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Theodore41 wrote:
Brainsick67 wrote:
DENGOH wrote:
No problem. DX80 is flooder while R90C is thrower. But we still can roughly know how well R90C perform by comparing side by side.

The DX80 Throws great..more then anybody should need..i do want the R90C..might get that in a couple weeks..

+1000.
I also believe that if we have a DX80,we don’t need a MS12,but we can think bying a R90C.

Its prob the better choice and cheaper..but i wanted the MS12.NOW..lol..
Brainsick67
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M4D M4X wrote:

hope I get mine soon


DITO.for both our sake…
Mark M
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JasonWW wrote:
In my head, comparing my GT on the 3.5” lumen tube, I would expect it’s real output to be 40k-45k lumen if you could get all of the light into the tube. It’s just a wild guess, but it makes sense to me.

What I was stating was that my BLF GT measures about 3k lumen less than other people. So it measures about 5200 lumen. Tired In regards to the measurement I don’t know what to tell mortuus. The measurement is what it is. I have no way of trying to figure out the output. I did go outside and take some lux measurements. At 20ft I saw 4100 lux. This produced a hotspot about 5ft in diameter. I tried some math taking the lux at the brightest spot and then measuring when it dropped to 50% of that value and then measuring the size of the hotspot and the beam angle. The math seemed to support an output of around 40k. But it is only a wild guestimation.

DENGOH
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Mark M wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
In my head, comparing my GT on the 3.5” lumen tube, I would expect it’s real output to be 40k-45k lumen if you could get all of the light into the tube. It’s just a wild guess, but it makes sense to me.

What I was stating was that my BLF GT measures about 3k lumen less than other people. So it measures about 5200 lumen. Tired In regards to the measurement I don’t know what to tell mortuus. The measurement is what it is. I have no way of trying figuring out the output. I did go outside and take some lux measurements. At 20ft I saw 4100 lux. This produced a hotspot about 5ft in diameter. I tried some math taking the lux at the brightest spot and then measuring when it dropped to 50% of that value and then measuring the size of the hotspot and the beam angle. The math seemed to support an output of around 40k. But it is only a wild guestimation.


That is about 152kcd for 4100lux at 20ft. Better than DX80 by 50kcd if I remember correctly.

cool i'll see you when you get there

SKV89
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mortuus wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
mortuus wrote:
25 000 on turbo? not more ?

Why would you expect more? The flashlight head is 5.1” in diameter and the Lumen Tube is 3.5” in diameter. So a huge amount of the light is not even going inside the Lumen Tube. If a GT70 only shows 3000, then 25000 seems about right.

When you get up to big lights with really high outputs you need to switch to a bigger integrating sphere. Like a big styrofoam cooler.

You start to run the risk of melting the diffusers in the TA Lumen Tube.

Im confused, light is claimed over 50k lumens, that to me is a bit low? i know even if u take into account loss of light etc its still a bit low too me and false marketing imo…. the actual lumens on turbo would be interesting to get.

Or do u mean in a perfect calibrated tube that can handle that much lumens it would show near those 50k ? then i understand.

Not sure if you can fully visualize the issue. The MS12 flashlight head has a diameter of 5.1” or 20.4 in2 whereas his TA Lumen Tube can only measure up to 3.5” diameter or 9.6 in2. Therefore the TA Lumen Tube cannot capture all the light from this flashlight.

Additionally, after the whole ordeal of calibrating the TA Lumen Tube by the BLF community, I have a feeling that many manufacturers, especially the smaller ones, might be using integrating spheres that are not calibrated correctly without knowing it themselves. Prior to the calibrated TA Tube, most DIY measurements by BLF users are also miscalibrated higher than they should and this includes TA’s own measurements from before, which were about 32% higher than his current calibration. Even Djozz’s lumen measurements are, correct me if I’m wrong, still kept about 12% higher to be consistent with his previous measurements. The price of a certified integrating sphere is the price of a couple thousand cheap flashlights so most bargain manufacturers cannot afford one.

I don’t know if Imalent has a certified integrating sphere or properly calibrated measurement device. I read a few user reviews that measure the DX80 to be about 30k to 32k lumens, which is pretty good considering typical variations within the same model but the DN70 measured significantly less than the rated 3800 lumens. However, I no longer fully trust these user measurements unless it’s measured by Maukka or a calibrated TA Lumen Tube that fits the light head.

Tally-ho
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Mark M wrote:
I did measure output in my 3.5” lumen tube from TA, I used maukka’s calibration lights to test the new lux meter. This is an incredibly inaccurate way to measure luminous intensity because the head of the flashlight is 5” in diameter, there is an incredible amount of light escaping.

If you already measured several flashlights with TA’s lumen tube, you can measure again a couple of those flashlights and the MS12 with a ceiling bounce in a small room with white walls. It won’t be super accurate but will probably be more relevant than with a lot of light escaping from TA’s lumen Tube.

hIKARInoob
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Rough estimate #1:

Output MS12 ≈ ((5.1^2)/(3.5)^2) * 25000 = 53k lumen.

So ironically it's spot on with Imalent's specs. Of course this is a rough calculation, and surely there are reasons why it's insufficiently accurate. But it's a method.

Mark M
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I could just as easily say lumen = candela * steradian

So we can calculate the steradian as Ω=2π(1-cos(θ/2) and candela with the formula candela = lx * (distance in meters)2

 

Ω=2π(1-cos(θ/2) where my θ = 38.83 , ≅.3593 steradian

candela = lx * (distance in meters)2 which is as follows candela = 4100 * (6.096)≅ 152360 cd

lumen = 152360 * .3593 ≅ 54742 lm

 

How did you get your theta you say? Some measurements and the law of sines.

 

But all of these formulas make many assumptions and I have very little confidence in the final result. I did this math a few days ago, but you can't just make these assumptions and claim the reading is valid. Now I am sure everyone is going to say "Mark said the MS12 flashlight is rated at 54742 lm!" Facepalm

 

Flashaholics
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Throwers always read higher on ceiling bounce tests so I had to calibrate the ceiling bounce app with a beam that was close in area to the MS12’s.

First I ceiling bounced it against a DX80 which people got 30k for and the MS12 measured 43k. The MS12 has wider spill than the DX80 though so I ceiling bounced the MS12 against a roughly 15000 lumen Acebeam X45 which has a very similar beam profile and the MS12 measured 53,000 exactly!

I then did a 10 minute runtime test from Turbo and abandoned it due to excessive temps. I couldn’t hold the light at around 6 mins.
The button area was 56c and head 86c, the fan didn’t seem to have much effect on external temps.

My 4K Flashlight reviews (MS12, DX80, X80-GT, X45vn, X80 etc) - https://www.youtube.com/c/FLASHAHOLICS_GB

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Wow! 86c is extremely high, I can’t recall what was the temperature when someone did extreme test on Haikelite MTO9R. At this temperature, the fan has to rotate in such hot air environment, the fan might contribute more heat that trapped in there too. I am thinking of convection oven theory.

cool i'll see you when you get there

JasonWW
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I’m guessing that the MS12 did not kick down enough or fast enough like it should. If it did go down to 15,000 lumen, it might have been sucking in hot air and circulating it instead of getting fresh air.

I wonder why it got so hot?

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

Theodore41
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I think this is the problem of the fan cooled lights.So,I guess that Acebeam understood this and so,put the fan in the handle so as to suck, and then pump fresh air.

JasonWW
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Theodore41 wrote:
I think this is the problem of the fan cooled lights. So, I guess that Acebeam understood this and so put the fan in the handle so as to suck and then pump fresh air.

There’s a wide variety of different actively cooled light designs. Some of which work extremely well.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

Flashaholics
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Just done another 10 minute run this morning: head 65c, button area 45c – HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!

Handle was very comfortable to hold with the button being a little hot to press. Not sure why the extreme differences, fan kicked in at 3 mins as well, not 2 mins like yesterday.

Bizarre!

Turbo started stepping down from 5.30mins, it took 30 seconds to get to 15,000. Reactivating Turbo at 9 minutes was pointless it stepped down sharply.

The fan does seem to go at different speeds occasionally so might be something in that.

My 4K Flashlight reviews (MS12, DX80, X80-GT, X45vn, X80 etc) - https://www.youtube.com/c/FLASHAHOLICS_GB

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Both tests are with batteries freshly charged?
If second test has less juice in batteries, it might not have same output power.

cool i'll see you when you get there

DIPSTIX
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Dethroned

Flashaholics
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DENGOH wrote:
Both tests are with batteries freshly charged? If second test has less juice in batteries, it might not have same output power.

Probably 4.20v for 1st and around 4.10v for second, I’ll test again at 4.20v later

My 4K Flashlight reviews (MS12, DX80, X80-GT, X45vn, X80 etc) - https://www.youtube.com/c/FLASHAHOLICS_GB

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DIPSTIX wrote:
Dethroned

???

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

mortuus
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JasonWW wrote:
DIPSTIX wrote:
Dethroned
???

I think he refers to the x70 which will have more lumens and be the new king?

...where Frugal meets with Flashlight!

JasonWW
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mortuus wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
DIPSTIX wrote:
Dethroned
???

I think he refers to the x70 which will have more lumens and be the new king?


Oh. So if Acebeam decides to not release the X70, then it’s still the king or not? Who knows?

I will wait until the X70 is released and measured against the MS12 before I say which is king. Right now MS12 is king.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

mortuus
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Specs are out on X70, looks like it will not run more then 15k continous,, 25k at 8min and 60k at 55 seconds!

...where Frugal meets with Flashlight!

DENGOH
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JasonWW wrote:
I’m guessing that the MS12 did not kick down enough or fast enough like it should. If it did go down to 15,000 lumen, it might have been sucking in hot air and circulating it instead of getting fresh air.

I wonder why it got so hot?


I think Imalent didn’t invest in real thermal regulation even for this flagship product.
Below is the thermal vs lumen percentage graph of my Zebralight S6330 that I did years ago. It regulate the output so that temperature doesn’t cross a predefined temperature, in this case around 60 degree celcius for external temperature. It actually increased the output when it see temperature dropped enough. But I have no way to know the internal temperature that definitely rise much faster than external temperature, that is why we see the output dropped soon after 1 minute.

cool i'll see you when you get there

JasonWW
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DENGOH wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
I’m guessing that the MS12 did not kick down enough or fast enough like it should. If it did go down to 15,000 lumen, it might have been sucking in hot air and circulating it instead of getting fresh air.

I wonder why it got so hot?


I think Imalent didn’t invest in real thermal regulation even for this flagship product.
Below is the thermal vs lumen percentage graph of my Zebralight S6330 that I did years ago. It regulate the output so that temperature doesn’t cross a predefined temperature, in this case around 60 degree celcius for external temperature. It actually increased the output when it see temperature dropped enough. But I have no way to know the internal temperature that definitely rise much faster than external temperature, that is why we see the output dropped soon after 1 minute.



Of course they didn’t.

No way you can compare these two brands.

Zebralight uses a very advanced thermal regulation that can decrease as well as increase the output. No way Imalent is using something that advanced.

Anyway, it seems it was a fluke. On the second try it cooled down properly. So Imalent probably has some glitchy software controlling the temps.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

DENGOH
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Well, both are flagship light of each brand. Zebralight S6330 was selling at $199 without discount. It has lower price from time to time when there was discount. Imalent MS12 is selling at $606 without discount and $390 with discount. There are people who bought lights at full price believe it or not. From price point of view, MS12 is about 2x-3x more expensive than S6330.

Also, S6330 was released 5-6 years ago and already had this thermal regulation technology in it. I don’t see why Imalent MS12 could not have this feature especially it is heat generation monster that its temperature is a risk factor. Sure Imalent will save some cost without R&D on this thermal regulation, but Imalent should provide alternative solution for example making use of fan(s) more robustly, and not just put a fan in there that doesn’t show obvious airflow and call it active cooling feature.

I think it is not a fluke. 1st test was full charge that has more power, that is why the fan kicked in at 2 minutes, which is 1 minute earlier than second test.

cool i'll see you when you get there

JasonWW
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To say that both are “Flagship” models is kind of meaningless. It’s like comparing the flagship Mercedes car to the flagship Yugo car. They are very different companies.

There could be many reasons why Imalent doesn’t use a more advanced thermal regulation technology. Perhaps their engineers are not familiar enough to design them? Maybe they don’t think it’s required? Who knows.

I don’t remember the test being at 2 different voltages. Is this the case?

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

DENGOH
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Ya, Flashaholics mentioned it in post #49 above.

cool i'll see you when you get there

JasonWW
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DENGOH wrote:
Ya, Flashaholics mentioned it in post #49 above.

Hmmm, a tenth of a volt can make a difference if you’re using a FET driver, but I don’t think the MS12 is using a FET. I’m not sure what type of driver it’s using, maybe a big boost driver?

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

Flashaholics
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3rd test at full voltage yielded hot measurements again this was this morning when it was very cold too. 84c head, 56c side of button. Turbo stepped in at 3 minutes though, but the light was very cold at turn on.

I’ll have to do a 4th 10 minute run time test at lower voltage again lol.

The fan does seem to hold the temp once it’s stepped down but it’s at temps that’s too hot to hold without gloves. It might be best running it on the lower modes first before sustaining turbo.

My 4K Flashlight reviews (MS12, DX80, X80-GT, X45vn, X80 etc) - https://www.youtube.com/c/FLASHAHOLICS_GB

DENGOH
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Flashaholics, thanks for testing it out again. Was this 84c at 10th minute or shorter time? I think it is reasonable fan started later than first test since it is colder to start from.

cool i'll see you when you get there

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