Fireflies E07 preview

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Tom E
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BlueSwordM wrote:
@TomE, I think the Samsung 30T was pushing the emitters way too hard.

Maybe, but it's only about ~4 amps per LED, but could be the heat.

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M4D M4X Did you already attempt the emitter swap? ^^

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Tom E wrote:

here's some 21700 battery test results I ran:

You do have to put this into perspective:

  • These tests are done for turn-on only, no indication how the cell droppage works
  • it's a one shot test, no averaging over several runs, etc.
  • amps is measured first, then lumens reading taken
  • amps is taken using a clamp meter with the tailcap removed - stock tail spring is high qual but not bypassed, so lumens may read lower compared to measured amps.

Interesting the 30T got such high amps but didn't deliver based on comparisons to other cells. The 40T is the actual winner, over the 30T. Also interesting the true branded 30T and 40T did notably better than the rest.

 

Thank you Tom E! This supports my assumption that the LK4000, the Shockli 4000 and the Sofirn 4000 are all made of rewrapped Lishen 2170SA cells. It would be nice to know if these fake 40Ts use this cell, too. So far, I only know about two cells with this ring in the negative pole: Lishen 2170SA and Samsung 48G.

Did you use Vapcell's 21700 5000mAh with 10A or the one that is branded with 15A? The latter one is known to be the Sanyo NCR21700A ("Tesla" cell) and has a significantly recessed positive pole.

Cheers,

Thomas

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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

Tom E wrote:

here’s some 21700 battery test results I ran:



You do have to put this into perspective:



  • These tests are done for turn-on only, no indication how the cell droppage works

  • it’s a one shot test, no averaging over several runs, etc.

  • amps is measured first, then lumens reading taken

  • amps is taken using a clamp meter with the tailcap removed – stock tail spring is high qual but not bypassed, so lumens may read lower compared to measured amps.


Interesting the 30T got such high amps but didn’t deliver based on comparisons to other cells. The 40T is the actual winner, over the 30T. Also interesting the true branded 30T and 40T did notably better than the rest.



 


Thank you Tom E! This supports my assumption that the LK4000, the Shockli 4000 and the Sofirn 4000 are all made of rewrapped Lishen 2170SA cells. It would be nice to know if these fake 40Ts use this cell, too. So far, I only know about two cells with this ring in the negative pole: Lishen 2170SA and Samsung 48G.


Did you use Vapcell’s 21700 5000mAh with 10A or the one that is branded with 15A? The latter one is known to be the Sanyo NCR21700A (“Tesla” cell) and has a significantly recessed positive pole.


Cheers,


Thomas

Isn’t it the LG M50 also has a ring on the bottom?

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Tom E wrote:

here’s some 21700 battery test results I ran:



You do have to put this into perspective:



  • These tests are done for turn-on only, no indication how the cell droppage works

  • it’s a one shot test, no averaging over several runs, etc.

  • amps is measured first, then lumens reading taken

  • amps is taken using a clamp meter with the tailcap removed – stock tail spring is high qual but not bypassed, so lumens may read lower compared to measured amps.


Interesting the 30T got such high amps but didn’t deliver based on comparisons to other cells. The 40T is the actual winner, over the 30T. Also interesting the true branded 30T and 40T did notably better than the rest.


 

Puts some credit into my E07 XPL measuring slightly more with the 40T than the 30T.

I see Fireflies have upped the quoted output of the XPL 5000k from 6200 lumens to 6900 lumens.

My 4K Lumen Whore Reviews (MS18, X70, MS12, DX80, X80-GT, X45vn etc) - https://www.youtube.com/c/FLASHAHOLICS_GB

Tom E
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The Vapcell 5000 I have is 15A marked, and has the annoying great depression on the batt+ end -- pain to charge because even a magnet won't stay in place.

Yea Lux, think you are right. I was hoping the Shockli's, Sofirn's anf LK's were true rewrapped 40T's, but clearly not now. Notice how tight they all test in amps? Chances are good they are the same cell, I'd say.

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TomE, fix the mcpcb heat path before u do more testing.

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contactcr wrote:
TomE, fix the mcpcb heat path before u do more testing.

Huh? I'm not familiar with the problem that needs fix'n, and probably won't be doing any more battery testing. I haven't taken my E07 apart yet.

Ohh, u mean the lack of thermal grease? I don't know, is that really true? I'm very confused reading the posts and seeing pics - whether surfaces were cleaned or not. Maybe I missed something? I see pics but not a clear explanation, or some posts but no pics.

My tests above were just at turn on, mainly because of the low temp setting for thermal regulation. Tried resetting it but I guess for 30 sec tests with raising the thermal reg, better take her apart and check the MCPCB...

I don't like posts that keep you guessing - say it or don't mention it - Martin's post with the pic is not clear to me. The pics with clean MCPCB's and clean shelf top is exactly what I would do - clean the surfaces, re-apply good grease before re-assembling. There's nothing odd in those pics.

 


 

Post #1362 - pics and comments: http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1449592#comment-1449592

If this is true that they are not using a single drop of thermal grease (??), then that's a pretty bad oversight for such a powerfully driven light. I expect to see this in 1-2 amp cheap budget no name lights (like TESLACOM smilefrown), but not a light like this. If they are doing this in an attempt to keep the housing cool, or not heat up super fast, that's even worse.

 

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Tom E, the problem is there is a thin air gap between the MCPCB and the shelf. So the stock thermal compound doesn’t come into contact with the MCPCB.

I fixed mine by making sure my MCPCB is flat (ran it over fine sand paper on a flat surface) and also ran it over the sand paper at a 45 degree angle over all the edges so it sits down into the shelf better (the edges of the shelf are a little rounded).

contactcr
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Tom E wrote:
If this is true that they are not using a single drop of thermal grease (??)

I don’t think their intentions were bad. From what I understand the MCPCB is just slightly too large to sit flush with the shelf. The super thin layer would have been fine if it was flush since it’s screwed down. I will take mine apart soon to verify but I suspect I have the same problem since mine has a “delay” in the body heating up.

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Yeah, well … Tom I said with the pics that this was taken immediately upon seeing the situation, clearly show it right beside the head of the light and actually say the hemostats used to pull it out are still holding it. It’s true. No cleaning supplies were harmed during the filming of this picture. Wink

Not only that, but the MCPCB doesn’t fit onto the shelf, it’s held away by the corners and needs a little work to sit down onto the thermal paste you put on it when you do this. If you don’t file it down some, you’ll be wasting your time as there will still be air pockets between the MCPCB and shelf.

So distrustful, what’s a guy gotta do?

There is some paste on the shelf, it just doesn’t touch the MCPCB due to the non-fitment issue. Even at that, it’s a very thin wiped on layer of grey paste that ends up only touching the very corners of the bottom of the MCPCB.

One sure way for you to find out, but you’ll see what I and others show in their pics should you go there…

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Sorry, no idea what pics or posts you are talking bout - must have missed it. The only one I saw was the one I linked above. Too many posts, not enough search time....

 


 

Ok, now I get the purpose of this post: http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1455517#comment-1455517

I had no idea what this post was about, was staring at it for a while - no clue what I was looking at or what is was about -- now it makes sense. I totally missed, I guess, posts about this flatness issue. Too much on finish, colors, clips - you know, the important stuff smile

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M4D M4X wrote:

i opened mine in the name of science.. 

dry as f#ck  Sad

both MCPCB and aux board are a snug fit (half a mm gap would be better maybe)

and the bottom of the MCPCB is not flat...

after pushing the holes out in mfg those should be softened or the edges rounded...

 

you see the mcpcb did just touch the body on a small circle (1mm)

looks like the floating mcpcbs from the sky ray clones Wink 

 

mine had leftovers from pushing the holes and shape of the mcpcb too which also prevebted the copper from touching the head

 

already member of M4DM4X.com ?

the best deals are waiting for YOU!

 

before you buy elsewhere mail me: MARTIN@M4DM4X.COM - i will try to save you money!

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Ahh, ok Thanks! I'm starting to get it now. Sorry, takes me a while... embarassed

All this stuff is so much more critical on high powered lights. I've seen this many times before so when I have a light apart, I just make it a habit of checking the MCPCB and shelf flatness. For an MCPCB, sanding the bottom on a flat surface is the ultimate test - it can tell you a lot about the surface. For the shelf, sometimes you can see the problems, sometimes it helps getting a straight edge on it, and get one as close to the width of the shelf as possible. P60 pill surfaces are notorious for being unlevel, but can be leveled with a flat ended punch easy enough - few taps.

Seems like FF is a newbie at all this. Always check your vendors for quality, insist on them meeting detailed specs and do their own quality checks to ensure all spec'd dims are met or exceeded, penalize them if not done so. Might be difficult with typical sourcing over there though.

 

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any suggestions on how to protect the LEDs on the mcpcb while fixing it?
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contactcr wrote:
any suggestions on how to protect the LEDs on the mcpcb while fixing it?

they shouldn’t need any special protection.

After you pull the star out, run a handfile around the edges to chamfer the lower edge of the star. Keep the file perpendicular to the star so there is no chance of it slipping and hitting the LEDs. Should take no more than 10 minutes with a small file to make a 1mm chamfer all around the lower edge. A quick few swipes with a file over the bottom the star with a file should be enough to get any burs at the bottom of the holes.

Course, it might be harder if you plan to run a razor blade over the bottom like a previous poster did. Safest way to protect the LEDs if you plan to do that is to remove them all, fix the star, then reflow them all afterwards. I think that’s overkill though.

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So the full diameter at the top is fine? Just take an angle off the bottom edge?

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contactcr wrote:
So the full diameter at the top is fine? Just take an angle off the bottom edge?
Yup. Upper diameter is fine. Just chamfer the lower edge slightly, flatten the bottom a little and add a thicker layer of thermal paste.
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My E07 heats up pretty quickly. Probably no thermal paste like Martins. I mean I don’t care if you’re an amateur building your first P60 pill, this is basic stuff. I have 4 ROT66 with no issues, 1 PL47 with broken AUX LEDs, and now this E07. I’m not even looking at his stuff any longer; I give him credit for customer service I will say that much but at some point you have to do your job better, not worse.

Nokoff..still Made in China 山寨主義

Tom E
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7 low voltage LED's, heavy teflon coated short LED wires, decent FET, decent springs, the LED+ wire goes directly thru the driver spring, combined with a decent 21700 cell -- this light pulls more amps than the way bigger Q8, so it will warm up fast even with the poor contact the MCPCB has.

I just got mine fully apart, except for removal of the switch. I used 600 GRIT paper and sanded smooth the MCPCB, then got it mirror smooth with 2000 GRIT, so sanding on a flat surface, I'm pretty confident it's flat now. I used an Exacto knife to trim the big wire hole edge - don't want sharp edges there to fray wire coverings. The switch wires are long enough to tilt the driver out, but not long enough to clip/re-program the MCU - sooo close though. Might fit with flexible silicone coated LED wires, not sure. The driver was mounted with the glue that's like rubberbands - flexible, stretchy. I poked it out with a solder pick tool through the wire hole - broke the bond fairly easy, no damage but I was careful, no hammering needed. I don't see any problem with the width of the MCPCB in mine.

Considering how super thick the MCPCB shelf is, the head is pretty light weight. It's nice to see a light built this way, specifically designed for low profile TIR optics but the style is more conventional with the elongated head so it can be packed with aluminum, all in one piece with the outer shell - I think that aspect is quite unique, and for us, really nice! They probably could have reduced the length by 5+ mm or so and still had a decent thick shelf. I think the Emisar's went overboard with priority given to as min length as possible. Their pill space is super tight and not much metal in the heads, while the E07 least has some limited space in there, plus lots of metal. It's all a tradeoff of course.

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If I can make a suggestion….

I like military watches (doesn’t everybody?). Everybody and his dog makes a model but what very few do is to raise the bezel just enough to avoid contacting the glass. Just a few millimeters.

If I was designing it, I would explore how much I could raise the body or sink the switch to make it less liable to self turn on if it hit something. Not much, just a few millimeters. Maybe 5. Of course there is no guarantee that it will never happen, it just reduces the probability by a a substantial margin. Plus the rubber on the switch is probably the second most vulnerable thing.

Just a thought…..

Moses came from the mountaintop carrying a tablet. The Words were....WITH GREAT LUMENS COMES GREAT REPONSIBILITY.

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There's been lots of discussions on the switch height and protection on just about every light with a side switch here. Not sure, but thought ThorFire did set it a bit lower, but of course, not low enough. There were issues like this we just couldn't get them to budge on for various reasons, so we eventually settle, like we did with the screws securing down the driver - really wanted a retaining ring. Also wanted a better FET, didn't get that either. It's all about what they can do or can't, pricing, priorities, adding further delays, etc.

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Tom E wrote:

There’s been lots of discussions on the switch height and protection on just about every light with a side switch here. Not sure, but thought ThorFire did set it a bit lower, but of course, not low enough. There were issues like this we just couldn’t get them to budge on for various reasons, so we eventually settle, like we did with the screws securing down the driver – really wanted a retaining ring. Also wanted a better FET, didn’t get that either. It’s all about what they can do or can’t, pricing, priorities, adding further delays, etc.

I’m not sure why they would resist. It’s a matter of machining and that is about the easiest thing to change. Literally ZERO cost. They have to mill a hole, they can very easily mill a countersink. Just programming.

Perhaps I can help on the next build with machining and manufacturing knowledge.

Moses came from the mountaintop carrying a tablet. The Words were....WITH GREAT LUMENS COMES GREAT REPONSIBILITY.

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I can't recall, others might know better. Not sure if we gave it priority, and might have been a slippage issue - when you are running say 6 months behind, and they tell you it would delay another month of this or that, you tend to back off. Of course it doesn't really happen till another 10 months, but of course we didn't know that at the time -- hindsight thing...

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Tom E wrote:

I can’t recall, others might know better. Not sure if we gave it priority, and might have been a slippage issue – when you are running say 6 months behind, and they tell you it would delay another month of this or that, you tend to back off. Of course it doesn’t really happen till another 10 months, but of course we didn’t know that at the time — hindsight thing…

If it was a specific resistance to countersinking it then it had to be the switch itself. Either they had stock, wanted to maintain commonality to their other products or simple unavailability. As is, the switch may not be thin enough or the threading wouldn’t close to hold the switch if there was 5mm less of material thickness.

On the other hand, they could accommodate that if they wouldn’t remove off as much from the top, where the fins are.

I’m looking at the Thorfire Q8 and they could of left the ridge/fins on there and countersunk the switch. As it is now, it’s about 3 mm proud of the machined plane. It looks good, but I always chose function over sexy. On the other hand, I’m not selling flashlights.

Anywho….next time.

Moses came from the mountaintop carrying a tablet. The Words were....WITH GREAT LUMENS COMES GREAT REPONSIBILITY.

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Black paint removed from h2r nova clip to use on E07. Much better! Ordered a silver Olight S1R/S2R 2 way clip but it’s much shorter, so I did some pocket clip swapping around today. Zebralight clip went to the h2r, new Olight clip went on my old zebra h600w, and the h2r clip was sanded and put on the E07. Still have some polishing and clear coating but it looks good and much better than original clip Thumbs Up

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The clear ano eo7 looks very nice!

"It wouldn’t be so bright if there wasn’t a shadow every once in a while." - Jason Mraz

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I received my clear E07 today and one of the main LED’s wasn’t working. I already planned on taking it apart for a Luxeon V2 swap so I wasn’t concerned and got to work.

This is what I found:
D7 was the one not working. Absolutely zero solder on the cathode pad.

And the bottom of D7 is dry as well

But I’m happy to report the L1V2 emitter swap went perfect and it’s all buttoned back up!

Light box readings (raw numbers):
Stock SST20 4000K = 35100
Luxeon V2 5000K = 47200
A 34% gain (but that’s to be expected with it only having been running 6 of the sst20’s)

Guess this one missed QC huh…

 RIP  SPC Joey Riley, KIA 11/24/14. Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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And don’t forget the SST-20 4000k and below only come in 95CRI, so it is a bit unfair.

How did it not reflow though? Don’t they use skillets to specifically prevent this?

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

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I’m guessing it was a paste applicator error. I can see maybe the center pad not flowing with how much mass this MCPCB has but the cathode and anode pads flow easily even on this big honking thing. I just can’t imagine it not flowing when the 20 other solder joints, including all 7 thermal pads were good unless it simply didn’t get paste.

Either way literally 1 second of QC should of stopped it from going out the door like that…

 RIP  SPC Joey Riley, KIA 11/24/14. Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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