Fireflies E07 preview

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KevinZA1988
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contactcr wrote:
Has no one tried to retrofit a new, more clicky, e-switch on this light yet?

Do you perhaps know if this light has a separate switch or if it is mounted on the driver?

Armytek Prime C1 Pro, Armytek Prime C2 Pro, Armytek Tiara C1 Pro, Astrolux MF01 Mini, BLF Q8, BLF A6, BLF FW1A, BLF FW3A, BLF FW3C, BLF LT1, Convoy L6, Convoy C8+ , Convoy S3, Convoy M21A, Convoy S11, Emisar D4, Fireflies E07, Jaxman E2L, Lumintop EDC18, Manta Ray C8.2 long version, Olight S1R Baton II special edition series, S2R Baton II, Nitecore HC65, Olight H1R Nova.

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Ekstasis
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I did receive my flashlight couple of days ago.

Some Impressions of the flashlight.

First impression, it feels smaller then what I did imagine, this is positive, it defintly belong in EDC family, but the pictures online makes it hard to know the real size, so I am glad it turned out to be this size.
It also is very sexy to look at, I bought mind in gun grey color and I don’t regret the choice.
Second impression, with SST20 4000k I find the turbo very impressive, as usually you need to have surfaces to reflect light on to get the wow effect then it will really light up the whole surroundings in a very impressive way considering the size of the flashlight, so yes performance does not disappoint this 7 led configuration really adds that wow factor that I have missed in all my quad led lights.
I really dig the ramp/dim functionality, makes it perfect especially for indoor use, in a seamless way you and adjust brightness according to distance and as you get closer to doors you lower the brightness etc.
Battery life seem to be kind of good, as always it always depend on your use, all these brightness modes and ramp functionality is there for a reason, both in terms of heating protection and battery consumption the whole purpose is to change brightness all the time according to need, the more you do that the better battery life, if you use turbo a lot dont expect any good battery life, but if you use it for short flashes and then go down to high it will be good. I dont have any exact number of the battery life, but ofc you need to compromise you might be in scenario where you want to use turbo majority of the time with this flashlight you simply cant both because of heating and battery consumption, but this is where 7 led configuration and 21700 battery come to play, the “high” mode is even better then last generations quad led flashlight in turbo, and the difference in heat/battery is very big between high/turbo, also the 7 led config makes the “the eye” very wide and big so wow effect is still present in high mode but ofc not as much as turbo.

I still give this flashlight 10 points, it still the most beautiful and powerful flashlight in this size but I will list a few things I don’t like.

1. Aux leds, is nothing for me, it takes away the professional feel when having them on, gladely I can turn it off, the leds on the button I have no problem with it fills a purpose the other aux leds are only for bling bling.
2. Manual and configuration routines are a big nightmare, the manual is very hard to understand, I pretty much need to take help from youtube videos, in one video the person say that the manual included with E07 is not complete, some important information is missing so I will need to check that out… I can understand flashoholics don’t mind this complex configuration options but the truth is no normal person will never use it, they will never change the sensor above 50 degrees etc, or even manage to turn off the aux lights. Yes to summarize while config options are big the whole config system is still a joke to me and laughable. What is missing here is a atleast a secondary button that would help to config, doing all with just one button is a big pain in the ass. I would also like a LED screen like TM26, so I can see more easy what menu in the options I am in etc…

3. The button is not perfect even do it fills it purpose it is not as responsive as you would like it to be, I would want a more tactile one. For the ramp/dim I would like half press option like Nitecore TM26.

I still give 10 points because this is as far as size to performance ratio have come right now, its the most powerful in the size and looks good, configuration is a nightmare but probably worth it. having it set to 50 degrees most likely have a positive effect on the longevity of the leds, since I read people have problem with the leds loose lumen after a while it might be related to having them run too hot…
But 50 degrees I still think is very low, 70 degrees Celsius atleast…but 50 is the default setting now I have to watch youtube videos how to change the sensor myself and calibrate etc.. its not fun but I must do it..

I wish they could calibrate the sensor before shipping and also that you would be able to ask them to set the sensor higher so you dont have to do all that yourself.
Putting off aux lights and change the sensor temp is two things you must learn how to do.. after this you really dont need to change anything in the config…

Tom E
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2 switches and half presses is obviously adding a 2nd switch input which the firmware can't handle yet, and this driver is out of spare I/O pins (this is a 3 channel driver, not 2), so can't happen with the current driver design.

ToyKeeper
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Ekstasis wrote:
things I don’t like.

1. Aux leds
2. configuration

Putting off aux lights and change the sensor temp is two things you must learn how to do.. after this you really dont need to change anything in the config…

Their newest light, the E01, has no aux LEDs and no ability to configure the interface. I guess less is more?

It still has a thermal calibration option though, because it’s really hard to get a factory to calibrate it.

Tom E
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TK, did you configure it that way for them with limited UI config? And looks like no candle, lightning modes, etc? I don't see a cfg file for the E01 in the repository?

I've had an E01 on order from Neal for a while now, but it's held up because the trits I ordered with it aren't in stock frown.

ToyKeeper
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Tom E wrote:
TK, did you configure it that way for them with limited UI config? And looks like no candle, lightning modes, etc? I don’t see a cfg file for the E01 in the repository?

Yes, the UI was created to match a spec from Fireflies. I guess they got enough comments like the one a couple posts ago that they wanted to remove some options.

The E01 config file is there, but it may not have landed in trunk yet. It’s at least in the fsm branch though. And with a pogo pin adapter, it’s really easy to reflash. It’s a FET+3 driver like the PL47 and E07.

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Ohh, cool! Boy, I need a pogo pin setup. Is there any good info to make/build/buy a setup here on BLF? Don't know all that much bout them but think the pinout layouts vary. Still unclear how they connect in to stay - hope they don't have to be held in place.

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Tom E wrote:

Ohh, cool! Boy, I need a pogo pin setup. Is there any good info to make/build/buy a setup here on BLF? Don’t know all that much bout them but think the pinout layouts vary. Still unclear how they connect in to stay – hope they don’t have to be held in place.

This is what I’m using:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/63230

This one is designed to make it pretty easy to handle different pin layouts.

It does have to be held in place, but it’s fairly easy to do… especially on drivers which have a few vias among the flashing pads. The vias align the pogo pins correctly and keep them there. Even without though, it’s not difficult.

hank
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Quote:
pogo pin setup. … think the pinout layouts vary.

Yeah, this deserves one’a them industrial standards everyone would agree on.
Or a new kind of connector. There’s alternatives like short range wireless: http://www.keyssa.com/technology/

Tom E
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I gotta read up on this, and where to get parts, etc. Think we may have pogo pins at work - probably DigiKey sourced.

Ekstasis
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ToyKeeper wrote:
Ekstasis wrote:
things I don’t like.

1. Aux leds
2. configuration

Putting off aux lights and change the sensor temp is two things you must learn how to do.. after this you really dont need to change anything in the config…

Their newest light, the E01, has no aux LEDs and no ability to configure the interface. I guess less is more?

It still has a thermal calibration option though, because it’s really hard to get a factory to calibrate it.

For me who work as security gurd E01 looks like a good option but it pales in performance… also… it looks to have a lot bigger candela judging by the beam shot on the website.
For a security guard you want less candela and more lumen. Anyway E07 and ST20 gives a good balance between flood and throw. Throw is overrated I think… for most situations lower candela and high lumen is to prefer..how ever for some people they require good throw all the time… depending on activity… E07 and ST20 give good balance between the two.. I dont have exact numbers how much it throw etc…

I might consider the E01 as secondary flashlight… the batterylife should be very good since its only one led and 21700 battery. The price is very good.

Ekstasis
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contactcr
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!{width:100%}ABCDh.jpg!

 

Do your images with the above code and it will fit to the screen.  Also, since you are using imgur if you add an 'h' to the end of the filename like I did above it will resize it to 1024 width I think.

ToyKeeper
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Ekstasis wrote:
For a security guard you want less candela and more lumen.

Odd, I thought it was exactly the opposite… a security guard would probably want to see far away, no?

Tom E
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O'L, when working as an evening security guard, described scenarios where he needed throw to give a shot down long views - he definitely needed some throw in his duties. Interesting he always preferred CW for these lights.

Ekstasis
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ToyKeeper wrote:
Ekstasis wrote:
For a security guard you want less candela and more lumen.

Odd, I thought it was exactly the opposite… a security guard would probably want to see far away, no?

Well it depends little bit on scenario, for your information I keep my Sofirn SF36W with me if I need more throw, I have not really compared throw between the sofirn and E07.

Also security guard have different task and also guard differnt objects so it really depends on your task, for me personally low candela and high lumen is better.
Low candela gives almost 180 degree of view, this is good if there is an possible attacker in your near proxity which you might not see with a high candela light…
I think this video describe it well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qSOowE_LsY

Ekstasis
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Yes as I said… it becomes hot too fast for me… from cold start it become hot very fast.. so I dont think they have done a very good job with the thermal performance on this one… its not that its not a problem to operate the flashlight even if its very hot since you hold in the back parts not the head… but with this thermal performance its not strange it have to throttle down a lot… I will try to change the sensor this week to allow 80 degrees.. For version 2 I think we could expect better thermal performance… and SST 20 was supposed to have a lot better thermal performance then the nichia then I really wonder how much more bad it was with the nichia. Anyway nothing is perfect this is still better then all other out there, if you dont use turbo all the time you will still get a flashlight the outperform others which using turbo… so its important to keep this in mind.. also price is good…

But yeah for version two the focus should be on thermal performance, cause its what reduce the performance right now…

contactcr
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The thermal performance is about as good as it’s going to get. It’s a hot rod and without something double the size it won’t make any difference

Ekstasis
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contactcr wrote:
The thermal performance is about as good as it’s going to get. It’s a hot rod and without something double the size it won’t make any difference

I have not said it’s easy.. but to move innovation forward they need to think outside the box. Smartphones which share much of similar problems have starting to experiment with vapor chambers, I have not seen any exact numbers of having this and without… but might be worth to try..

contactcr
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75-100 watts. If you want a vapor chamber I suggest gloves Smile

BlueSwordM
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Yeah, at these kind of power levels(50-70W+), even with so much thermal mass, it’s going to heat up massively.

Phones, at the absolute worst, only have to deal with 7,5-10W.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

Ekstasis
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BlueSwordM wrote:
Yeah, at these kind of power levels(50-70W+), even with so much thermal mass, it’s going to heat up massively.

Phones, at the absolute worst, only have to deal with 7,5-10W.

Yes true, but there is also a lot more space for cooling in a flashlight… vapor chamber seem to be the latest innovation right now in cpu cooling for mobile devices… it might be just a gimmick I don’t know.. not seen A/B tests.

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There are two ways to keep the light from getting hot so fast:

  • Add mass
  • Reduce power

So if you want something which heats up slower or can stay on the highest level indefinitely, you should look for something much bigger or much less bright.

There’s also the option of trying to increase efficiency of the LED and/or driver, but that has limited room for improvement. Basically instead of wasting 85% of the power as heat, an ideal light could get as low as maybe 56% wasted as heat. Still not great. So it’ll still need more mass or less power.

Some bigger lights have also resorted to the use of active cooling, building a cooling fan into the light itself… but that’s not a great option on small items, and even on the bigger ones it’s kind of obnoxious.

Ekstasis
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ToyKeeper wrote:
There are two ways to keep the light from getting hot so fast:
  • Add mass
  • Reduce power

So if you want something which heats up slower or can stay on the highest level indefinitely, you should look for something much bigger or much less bright.

There’s also the option of trying to increase efficiency of the LED and/or driver, but that has limited room for improvement. Basically instead of wasting 85% of the power as heat, an ideal light could get as low as maybe 56% wasted as heat. Still not great. So it’ll still need more mass or less power.

Some bigger lights have also resorted to the use of active cooling, building a cooling fan into the light itself… but that’s not a great option on small items, and even on the bigger ones it’s kind of obnoxious.

I think some kind of liquid cooling is the way to go..

SKV89
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Unless there’s a way to change physics, the E07 thermal performance is pretty much as good as it gets. Liquid cooling or vapor chamber will do nothing for a light of this size and output. If you don’t want it to heat up that fast, very simple, just run it at 1,000 to 2,000 lumens which is equivalent to the turbo modes on other flashlights of this size. Even a flashlight with 10x the mass will not be able to sustain the max output of the E07. The max output is meant for small bursts.

Ekstasis wrote:
Yes as I said… it becomes hot too fast for me… from cold start it become hot very fast.. so I dont think they have done a very good job with the thermal performance on this one… its not that its not a problem to operate the flashlight even if its very hot since you hold in the back parts not the head… but with this thermal performance its not strange it have to throttle down a lot… I will try to change the sensor this week to allow 80 degrees.. For version 2 I think we could expect better thermal performance… and SST 20 was supposed to have a lot better thermal performance then the nichia then I really wonder how much more bad it was with the nichia. Anyway nothing is perfect this is still better then all other out there, if you dont use turbo all the time you will still get a flashlight the outperform others which using turbo… so its important to keep this in mind.. also price is good…

But yeah for version two the focus should be on thermal performance, cause its what reduce the performance right now…

Ekstasis
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SKV89 wrote:
Unless there’s a way to change physics, the E07 thermal performance is pretty much as good as it gets. Liquid cooling or vapor chamber will do nothing for a light of this size and output. If you don’t want it to heat up that fast, very simple, just run it at 1,000 to 2,000 lumens which is equivalent to the turbo modes on other flashlights of this size. Even a flashlight with 10x the mass will not be able to sustain the max output of the E07. The max output is meant for small bursts.

Ekstasis wrote:
Yes as I said… it becomes hot too fast for me… from cold start it become hot very fast.. so I dont think they have done a very good job with the thermal performance on this one… its not that its not a problem to operate the flashlight even if its very hot since you hold in the back parts not the head… but with this thermal performance its not strange it have to throttle down a lot… I will try to change the sensor this week to allow 80 degrees.. For version 2 I think we could expect better thermal performance… and SST 20 was supposed to have a lot better thermal performance then the nichia then I really wonder how much more bad it was with the nichia. Anyway nothing is perfect this is still better then all other out there, if you dont use turbo all the time you will still get a flashlight the outperform others which using turbo… so its important to keep this in mind.. also price is good…

But yeah for version two the focus should be on thermal performance, cause its what reduce the performance right now…

Yeah but this is one thing that surprised me, it heats up very fast also on High mode… not just turbo mode, with turbo mode it heats up very very fast..we are talking under a minute here…

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Ekstasis wrote:
I think some kind of liquid cooling is the way to go..

It actually works really well with liquid cooling. I’ve done runtime tests this way before. Simply run cold water over the heat sink during use, and it should be able to stay at turbo until the battery is empty.

But if you mean a fully-sealed liquid cooling system, that doesn’t actually make much difference. Liquid heat pipes are good at getting heat from one place to another, but they have literally no effect on the overall heat-shedding capabilities. That depends on the surface area and the surrounding environment. So if it can disperse 20W of heat in the current design, it’d still only be able to disperse 20W of heat after having liquid cooling pipes installed. The main difference is it would theoretically heat up the host more evenly, so the back half would get hot faster and it would be more uncomfortable to hold.

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Yep.

A vapor chamber works really well if you have the surface area+cooling to be able to dissipate the heat.

The only thing that would be left to do to aid in cooling would be to go the Amutorch way, but with some modification.

See, the Amutorch VG10 21700 has a very thick body tube onto which the head sits on.

It’s one 21700 light that can actually sustain around 1000 lumens constantly, but gets a bit hot.

Why? The thick body tube transfers heat to the battery tube, meaning more surface area can be used to cool off the light.
The disadvantage to this is that since it isn’t finned, it doesn’t dissipate a lot of heat, but still helps.

So, here are the theoretical improvements that could be done:
1. Make a thick battery tube with a large connection to the head.
2. Make some fins on that battery tube. Even small ones can help.
3. Put some high melting point paraffin wax inside of the light.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

ToyKeeper
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Ekstasis wrote:
with turbo mode it heats up very very fast..we are talking under a minute here…

If you think a minute is fast, you should try some other “hot rod” lights. Some get too hot to hold in like … 10 seconds.

Mostly though, it sounds like you probably should avoid hot rod lights entirely. They clearly aren’t what you’re looking for. They’re designed to burn through power as fast as possible to make the brightest beam possible, even if only for a short time. So if you want the highest mode to last a while, look elsewhere. Or pretend “medium” is the highest mode, and it’ll behave more like other lights. The higher levels are entirely optional, and only intended for brief bursts.

Ekstasis
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ToyKeeper wrote:
Ekstasis wrote:
with turbo mode it heats up very very fast..we are talking under a minute here…

If you think a minute is fast, you should try some other “hot rod” lights. Some get too hot to hold in like … 10 seconds.

Mostly though, it sounds like you probably should avoid hot rod lights entirely. They clearly aren’t what you’re looking for. They’re designed to burn through power as fast as possible to make the brightest beam possible, even if only for a short time. So if you want the highest mode to last a while, look elsewhere. Or pretend “medium” is the highest mode, and it’ll behave more like other lights. The higher levels are entirely optional, and only intended for brief bursts.

As I said before, Personally I dont mind the heat… I know where the hold the flashlight to not burn… I hold my hand on the battery tube which is somewhat unaffected of the heat… the problem I have is how the heat throttle the performance…sustained performance is important… or atleast improve the heating build up time…

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