OSRAM KW CSLNM1.TG (1mm2) & Osram KW CSLPM1.TG (2mm2)

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nottawhackjob
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Ya, I kinda get the feeling Barkuti sorta doesn’t like MOFSET. LOL

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nottawhackjob wrote:

Past certain amps the dedomed XPG2 S4 2B today is still King IMO.

It’s not though, the black flat was still better.
Unless you’re talking about how at a constant voltage the XP G2 will draw less current than a white flat and therefore not overheat as quickly resulting in higher performance.
But that’s not really a fair comparison here.
You’re basically letting one LED overheat and not the other.

The great thing about low Vf is that you can drive it at it’s peak performance for extended periods of time using a regulated driver instead of an inconsistent dim, bright, and dim that DD would give with an increased risk of killing the LED.
There’s really no reason to do DD anymore. Drivers that can supply more current than necessary already exist.

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Enderman wrote:
nottawhackjob wrote:

Past certain amps the dedomed XPG2 S4 2B today is still King IMO.

It’s not though, the black flat was still better.
Unless you’re talking about how at a constant voltage the XP G2 will draw less current than a white flat and therefore not overheat as quickly resulting in higher performance.
But that’s not really a fair comparison here.
You’re basically letting one LED overheat and not the other.

The great thing about low Vf is that you can drive it at it’s peak performance for extended periods of time using a regulated driver instead of an inconsistent dim, bright, and dim that DD would give with an increased risk of killing the LED.

Ok granted I was being a bit unfair heat-wise in that it can take ‘sloppy’ abuse better for higher extended performance. BTW so the Black Flat can take DD generated heat (abuse) better than the XPG2?

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nottawhackjob wrote:
LOLThumbs Up

Well this is watt I was alluding to in this intently “loaded” question and I was waiting to see watt replies if any it generated. Yes the latest version Osram KW has higher lux than XPG2 but with caveats. And they are significant caveats in an ever more popular FET driver world. Osram may improve the KW’s current handling abilities in the future and when that happens well it’ll definitely without caveats be The King.

Past certain amps the dedomed XPG2 S4 2B today is still King IMO. Butt let’s face it. LEP technology currently lux surpasses all LEDs out there with all 1:1 input factors considered. And the thing is it still has room to improve. Shocked


Well, if that isn’t some backwards thinking, I don’t know what is! But no worries, you’re not the first one, nor will you be the last. Facepalm

To clarify for the folks watching at home: More wattage NEVER means more performance! In the past, emitters HAD to be pushed almost to their breaking point to reach peak output. So, it became a common “shorthand” or a “rule of thumb” to say that more watts means more performance. But, it technically has never been true. These days it’s less true than ever, since the space between the end of the performance peak and the end of the emitter (failure) has widened considerably in lots of cases.

So, to say “Past certain amps the dedomed XPG2 S4 2B today is still King IMO.” is to show a misunderstanding of how this works. Did you not see that it was said that the “White Flat” will out-perform the dedomed XPG2 S4 2B while pulling about 2A LESS? Who wouldn’t want that? Great performance PLUS better run time! Sounds like a winner to me! CrownThumbs Up

Once again, in case you missed it, the dedomed XPG2 S4 2B REQUIRES more wattage than the “White Flat” in order to perform, and yet it still doesn’t perform as well when compared to the peak performance of the “White Flat”. The reason it MAY perform better at high wattage in a DD setup is because the “White Flat” is losing performance by that point.

About those DD drivers too: The reason they were developed years ago and became so popular is again BECAUSE the emitters had to have high wattage in order to perform at their “best”. Now that more emitters are being introduced with peak performance well BELOW peak wattage, I predict that DD FET drivers will lose popularity. It won’t happen because of the crusades of a few Anti-FET members, but because most of us aren’t looking to idolize FET the way we’re being accused of in the first place. We just want max performance. And if we can have better run time as well, we won’t hesitate to throw DD FET drivers off a cliff in order to reach for the next thing. Innocent

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nottawhackjob
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Yes I am referring to ‘abuse’ performance not efficiency performance. It performs better when 1:1 abused (direct driven) particularly with higher current type batts such as the 30Q.

Never meant nor intentionally implied that more watts equals more (better) performance.

Many LEDs will continue to be FET abused for the near future until all of us become Barkutified Enlightened and the Osram KW mentality goes modder mainstream. I agree with you on the trend going that way though. LEP efficiency technology alone will further reinforce it.

Barkuti is right. We prolly need to start Seeing the Light better. LOL

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nottawhackjob wrote:
Yes I am referring to ‘abuse’ performance not efficiency performance. It performs better when 1:1 abused (direct driven). Never meant nor intentionally implied that more watts equals more performance. Many LEDs will continue to be FET abused for the near future until all of us become Barkutified and the Osram KW mentality goes modder mainstream. I agree with you on the trend going that way though. LEP efficiency technology alone will further reinforce it.

Ah yes… Carry on then! Big Smile

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Performance and runtime of white flat in fet dd setup is better than same configuration with old xpg2s42b. You will have more than 20 minutes of super thrower performance in your single 18650 setup, and this new emitter is not black flat is white flat so it is better than his black brother and can withstand some serious abuse and current at which old xpg2s42b would explode… I am abusing that emitter for one full month and it still did not die. Still same performance…
So will fet dd config die? I don’t think so… Wouldn’t be nice to have it regulated? Yes why not? Should you affraid of 5.5A current draw on White Flat? Absolutely not. It can safely survive even more than 7A for extended periods of time well at least my re flowed version…

Now one example. Scientist guys please read consideration of just regular diy redneck guy like myself… Smile Talking about single cell 18650 flashlights and defending old FET DD technology LOL

Regulated driver set at 5.5 A current draw vs FET DD driver at mentioned 5.5A (at 4.2V) > 3.3A(at 3.4V).

FET dd has 5.5A performance for about minute than it drops to 5.4A, after minute to 5.3A, after minute to 5.2A etc… In other way it does not stay in regulation. But! Since White Flat is like viagra it has very constant lux performance from 5.5A to 3.5A. We will not feel any significant visual performance drop and flashlight will generate heat proportionally to amperage draw from cell. In other way flashlight will actually become cooler as performance falls. FET driver does not generates heat right?

Regulated linear with constant performance set at 5.5 A. No argue that it will give maximum and more constant performance. But! Whole rig generates far more heat than FET DD setup. Regulated linear driver generates a lot of heat as far as I know right? That means once when flashlight host reach maximum heat absorption potential it will really start to cook the led itself… And not only LED all components on linear driver will suffer.

FET DD driver actually cools itself while Regulated linear cooks itself!

So FET DD lets us to feel maximum performance of led emitter, generates heat proportionally to amperage draw from cell so it is quite safe in usage even more safe imho than regulated linear driver in same peak amperage (5.5A for example).

So for single cell 18650 thrower lights I will just say long live FET DD Thumbs Up

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any good prices source for Sanyo NCR18650GA ?

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nottawhackjob wrote:
Ya, I kinda get the feeling Barkuti sorta doesn’t like MOFSET. LOL

Nothing wrong with a MOSFET, it’s DD that’s a bit silly for this LED.

2Q19

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the problem is that most of us are going to change the xpg2 on our flashlights which was with DD drive,i prefer to just change the led keep the drivers and just find better batteries for that setup.

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nottawhackjob wrote:
BTW so the Black Flat can take DD generated heat (abuse) better than the XPG2?

No idea, I never run my LEDs in DD.
You’ll never get peak performance with DD, it either runs at too much current or not enough current.
Ideally the LED operates at the peak of the curve, which is basically impossible to do with DD because battery voltage drops so quickly.
And if you run it where the battery voltage is fairly stable, ~3.7v, then the initial spike of 4.2v just makes the LED heat up excessively and decreases performance, assuming you don’t instantly kill the LED.
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David, send me that quad X6 and I’ll replace the driver so it doesn’t make excess wattage….

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luminarium iaculator wrote:
Performance and runtime of white flat in fet dd setup is better than same configuration with old xpg2s42b. You will have more than 20 minutes of super thrower performance in your single 18650 setup, and this new emitter is not black flat is white flat so it is better than his black brother and can withstand some serious abuse and current at which old xpg2s42b would explode… I am abusing that emitter for one full month and it still did not die. Still same performance…
So will fet dd config die? I don’t think so… Wouldn’t be nice to have it regulated? Yes why not? Should you affraid of 5.5A current draw on White Flat? Absolutely not. It can safely survive even more than 7A for extended periods of time well at least my re flowed version…

Now one example. Scientist guys please read consideration of just regular diy redneck guy like myself… Smile Talking about single cell 18650 flashlights and defending old FET DD technology LOL

Regulated driver set at 5.5 A current draw vs FET DD driver at mentioned 5.5A (at 4.2V) > 3.3A(at 3.4V).

FET dd has 5.5A performance for about minute than it drops to 5.4A, after minute to 5.3A, after minute to 5.2A etc… In other way it does not stay in regulation. But! Since White Flat is like viagra it has very constant lux performance from 5.5A to 3.5A. We will not feel any significant visual performance drop and flashlight will generate heat proportionally to amperage draw from cell. In other way flashlight will actually become cooler as performance falls. FET driver does not generates heat right?

Regulated linear with constant performance set at 5.5 A. No argue that it will give maximum and more constant performance. But! Whole rig generates far more heat than FET DD setup. Regulated linear driver generates a lot of heat as far as I know right? That means once when flashlight host reach maximum heat absorption potential it will really start to cook the led itself… And not only LED all components on linear driver will suffer.

FET DD driver actually cools itself while Regulated linear cooks itself!

So FET DD lets us to feel maximum performance of led emitter, generates heat proportionally to amperage draw from cell so it is quite safe in usage even more safe imho than regulated linear driver in same peak amperage (5.5A for example).

So for single cell 18650 thrower lights I will just say long live FET DD Thumbs Up

Well I guess I’m not clear here then Luminarium. First ya advise to stay away from high current cells like the 30Q and then here ya say it can take more abuse (current) than the old XPG2.

IDK, sounds to me like the White Flat can take a 30Q afterall with FET DD and there’ll be zero to none problems. LOL

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DB Custom wrote:
David, send me that quad X6 and I’ll replace the driver so it doesn’t make excess wattage….

Uhh… No thanks! I’m good! Big Smile

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nottawhackjob wrote:
luminarium iaculator wrote:
Performance and runtime of white flat in fet dd setup is better than same configuration with old xpg2s42b. You will have more than 20 minutes of super thrower performance in your single 18650 setup, and this new emitter is not black flat is white flat so it is better than his black brother and can withstand some serious abuse and current at which old xpg2s42b would explode… I am abusing that emitter for one full month and it still did not die. Still same performance…
So will fet dd config die? I don’t think so… Wouldn’t be nice to have it regulated? Yes why not? Should you affraid of 5.5A current draw on White Flat? Absolutely not. It can safely survive even more than 7A for extended periods of time well at least my re flowed version…

Now one example. Scientist guys please read consideration of just regular diy redneck guy like myself… Smile Talking about single cell 18650 flashlights and defending old FET DD technology LOL

Regulated driver set at 5.5 A current draw vs FET DD driver at mentioned 5.5A (at 4.2V) > 3.3A(at 3.4V).

FET dd has 5.5A performance for about minute than it drops to 5.4A, after minute to 5.3A, after minute to 5.2A etc… In other way it does not stay in regulation. But! Since White Flat is like viagra it has very constant lux performance from 5.5A to 3.5A. We will not feel any significant visual performance drop and flashlight will generate heat proportionally to amperage draw from cell. In other way flashlight will actually become cooler as performance falls. FET driver does not generates heat right?

Regulated linear with constant performance set at 5.5 A. No argue that it will give maximum and more constant performance. But! Whole rig generates far more heat than FET DD setup. Regulated linear driver generates a lot of heat as far as I know right? That means once when flashlight host reach maximum heat absorption potential it will really start to cook the led itself… And not only LED all components on linear driver will suffer.

FET DD driver actually cools itself while Regulated linear cooks itself!

So FET DD lets us to feel maximum performance of led emitter, generates heat proportionally to amperage draw from cell so it is quite safe in usage even more safe imho than regulated linear driver in same peak amperage (5.5A for example).

So for single cell 18650 thrower lights I will just say long live FET DD Thumbs Up

Well I guess I’m not clear here then Luminarium. First ya advise to stay away from high current cells like the 30Q and then here ya say it can take more abuse (current) than the old XPG2.

IDK, sounds to me like the White Flat can take a 30Q afterall with FET DD and there’ll be zero to none problems. LOL


Yeah, there’s one little tiny thing you’ve missed. He said it CAN take the “abuse” of using a DD driver with max amps. But, it will perform BETTER at a lower current, so that’s the recommended set-up. Wink

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Ok then if I read things right it performs worse with higher current butt it also depends on how long it’s run at that current. Or no? For shorter burst throw activity do ya really need to use lower current batts? And if not can this be mitigated with anything else to improve thermal paths when reflowing?

To me at least dealing with this lower current batt jazz and this led is a PITA. It’s just another frickin’ thing I’d have to keep track of besides all the other shizen I gotta keep track of with ala in just safely charging batts itself. LOL

Oh and if it performs worse with high current batts butt STILL outperforms an abused XPG2 then one is still ahead, right? According to Luminarium it’s not gonna harm the KW hardly at all. So what if I get a bit less performance. Butt that’s just for me. Others want it all all the time, baby. Shocked

PS. If I understand Luminarium correctly it can go 20 minutes in Super Thrower mode. Does he mean with lower current batts, apparently so. Butt OTOH can it Super Throw for 5 mins with a 30Q, that I’m not sure of. Hell I rarely go longer than 2 mins on Super Throw mode with anything I own. I got neighbors ya know. LOLShocked

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Anybody know temp colour in Kelvin for this led?

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I installed OSRAM KW CSLNM1.TG in SP32A V2.0:

Throw is comparable with C8. Here is the picture with Convoy C8 with CREE XP-L HI V2 5D at 2.7A, SP32A with OSRAM KW CSLNM1.TG at 3A and stock Acebeam EC35 at 3.3A. Around 2.5 metres to a wall:


More details in this post.

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Sp32a reflector is not for this led for sure

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Which spot goes to which light? I assume at least clockwise from lower left butt ya never know. Grad

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nottawhackjob wrote:
Which spot goes to which light? I assume at least clockwise from lower left butt ya never know. Grad

The floodiest – EC35, the throwiest – C8, the coolest – SP32A

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g_damian wrote:
nottawhackjob wrote:
Which spot goes to which light? I assume at least clockwise from lower left butt ya never know. Grad

The floodiest – EC35, the throwiest – C8, the coolest – SP32A

Glad I asked. LOLShocked

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luminarium iaculator wrote:
… It can safely survive even more than 7A for extended periods of time well at least my re flowed version...

What if the led can survive whatever amount of overcurrent? When you do that you're pumping more power into the led it can fruitfully handle.

luminarium iaculator wrote:

*Regulated driver set at 5.5 A current draw vs FET DD driver* at mentioned 5.5A (at 4.2V) > 3.3A(at 3.4V).

*FET dd* has 5.5A performance for about minute than it drops to 5.4A, after minute to 5.3A, after minute to 5.2A etc... In other way it does not stay in regulation. But! Since White Flat is like viagra it has very constant lux performance from 5.5A to 3.5A. We will not feel any significant visual performance drop and flashlight will generate heat proportionally to amperage draw from cell. *In other way flashlight will actually become cooler as performance falls.* FET driver does not generates heat right?

*Regulated linear* with constant performance set at 5.5 A. No argue that it will give maximum and more constant performance. But! Whole rig generates far more heat than FET DD setup. Regulated linear driver generates a lot of heat as far as I know right? That means once when flashlight host reach maximum heat absorption potential it will really start to cook the led itself... And not only LED all components on linear driver will suffer.

*FET DD driver actually cools itself while Regulated linear cooks itself!*


So FET DD lets us to feel maximum performance of led emitter, generates heat proportionally to amperage draw from cell so it is quite safe in usage even more safe imho than regulated linear driver in same peak amperage (5.5A for example).

Wrong. The only reason a regulated linear setup generates more heat than plain direct drive is the price of regulation. The LD25 driver, for example, uses an AON7520 MOSFET and achieves regulation by sensing current through a 10mΩ resistor and using this feedback to precisely tune the VGS MOSFET gate voltage for it to let go no more than the preset driving current, thus no Thumbs Up PWM. The net dissipated power difference versus the same driver without regulation is the additional power spent in the sensing current path, Psense = I² × Rsense. At 5A that is 0.25W, this new LD-25 is particularly efficient in this regard. And of course bear in mind the regulator has to take and bear with any additional voltage delta times current power, thus the increased heat in the driver. This increased heat in the driver nets reduced heat everywhere else in the current path: springs, switch, cell, emitter, etc.

A MOSFET misdriver is just a PWM micro-controlled switch. As I said above, you pay a regulation price in linears. However, this price is not always a hurdle. You complain about heat generation, but do you understand where and how is the heat generated? Any time you “adjust” a plain MOSFET setup via unbypassed springs, using higher internal resistance cells, etc. what you're doing is redistributing where the heat is generated. Which of course can be good.

A linear driver has to burn all excess power to avoid it reaching the emitter, which of course will make them hotter than unregulated misdrivers which of course do nothing.

Sure as FLICK a misdriver isn't going to be very hot, how could it be? It is doing nothing besides quickly switching on and off when required. However, this does not mean the heat isn't going to be generated elsewhere. It's the emitter who is going to take the penalty among other parts like the switch, my dear. Pumping 7A in the white flat isn't going to insta-kill it, but it sure increases emitter stress unnecessarily and nets you lower performance. 

 

Smile 

Sat, 11/03/2018 - 01:36; Sat, 11/03/2018 - 03:30

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Ya know this guy noferek9 prolly makes the most practical real world sense outta all of us here. LOL

“the problem is that most of us are going to change the xpg2 on our flashlights which was with DD drive,i prefer to just change the led keep the drivers and just find better batteries for that setup.”

Cuz I can tell ya right now I’m not gonna rip out a bunch of XPG2’s either much less their (gasp….heresy!) DD drivers.

Beer

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“Sure as FLICK a misdriver isn’t going to be very hot, how could it be? It is doing nothing besides quickly switching on and off when required. However, this does not mean the heat isn’t going to be generated elsewhere, you know? It’s the emitter who is going to take the penalty among other parts like the switch, my dear. Pumping 7A in the white flat isn’t going to insta-kill it, but it sure increases emitter stress unnecessarily and nets you lower performance.”

Man, I almost can’t wait to read Luminarium’s reply to this one.

LOLCoolLove

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nottawhackjob wrote:

Man, I almost can't wait to read Luminarium's reply to this one.

LOLCoolLove

Sure as FLICK I can wait. In fact I don't really care. No one's paying me for this and I believe it is unlikely he's going to get off his high donkey. He may already be aware of the provided information, except he may not have tried a proper linear driver like the ones from led4power or an LD-25. Or he just doesn't care.

By the way, I love Donkey Kong. Wink

 

Party 

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Barkuti wrote:

nottawhackjob wrote:

Man, I almost can’t wait to read Luminarium’s reply to this one.

LOLCoolLove


Sure as FLICK I can wait. In fact I don’t really care. No one’s paying me for this and I believe it is unlikely he’s going to get off his high donkey. He may already be aware of the provided information, except he may not have tried a proper linear driver like the ones from led4power or an LD-25. Or he just doesn’t care.


By the way, I love Donkey Kong. Wink


 


Party 

Well all I can say is I’m being entertained. I was starting to get bored around here. LOLThumbs Up

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Barkuti wrote:
Any time you “adjust” a plain MOSFET setup via unbypassed springs, using higher internal resistance cells, etc. what you’re doing is redistributing where the heat is generated. Which of course can be good.

A linear driver has to burn all excess power to avoid it reaching the emitter, which of course will make them hotter than unregulated.

It’s the emitter who is going to take the penalty among other parts like the switch, my dear. Pumping 7A in the white flat isn’t going to insta-kill it, but it sure increases emitter stress unnecessarily and nets you lower performance.


You said it. And it is true.

About pumping that 7A…

Don’t be like Notthawhackjob. I explainded to people with FET DD that low current cell is must since it will not pull more than 5.5A from emitter and becasue of that it will be safe in usage.

So once again for people still using FET DD setup. Use low current cell (Sanyo GA, LGBD1, and similar) in FET DD setup.

That configuration will run from 5.5A (at 4.2V) > 3.3A(at 3.4V). So nothing bad will happen to emitter and emitter will perform at its maximum performance (look at L4P test and Djozz graph).

Don’t use high current cells in FET DD setup (samsung inr 30Q, Sony VTC and similar) cause they will pull more than 7A of current and could potentially kill your emitter.

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luminarium iaculator wrote:

… I explained to people with FET DD that low current cell is must since it will not pull more than 5.5A from emitter and becasue of that it will be safe in usage.

So once again for people still using FET DD setup. Use low current cell (Sanyo GA, LGBD1, and similar) in FET DD setup.

That configuration will run from 5.5A (at 4.2V) > 3.3A(at 3.4V). So nothing bad will happen to emitter and emitter will perform at its maximum performance (look at L4P test and Djozz graph).

Yes all of that is understood. Thanks anyway. Thumbs Up

A lower current cell is also of benefit for a linear driver, reducing the driver's dissipated heat.

There are some duper low price deals for high capacity low current cells in AliExpress. Asked Henrik to get some reviewed, by the way.

Quite low Vf, so low it could also work very well with an efficient buck driver like an LD-29 fed with single cell. Stack an R050 over the stock R025 for 4.5A maximum drive current.

Sofirn sells the C8S host with 20+mm driver hole and smooth reflector, I wonder what sort of throw performance would that net with the white flat. 200KCd? 

 

Cheers Smile 

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