GA,35E,VC7,36G,36G,tesla 3400mah, who is better?

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vapcell Dennis
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GA,35E,VC7,36G,36G,tesla 3400mah, who is better?

thanks Beer

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Edited by: vapcell Dennis on 11/08/2018 - 05:48
Woody
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Interesting, but why not follow the Forum rules, and post in the Commercial Seller’s section?

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Woody wrote:
Interesting, but why not follow the Forum rules, and post in the Commercial Seller’s section?

Sorry,i have deleted the original post.

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Woody
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No need to do that – you can easily edit the post, and send it to the Commercial Seller section.

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Woody wrote:
No need to do that – you can easily edit the post, and send it to the Commercial Seller section.
Big Smile Thanks,

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HydrAxx
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The LG M36 is the better cell actualy in this class, it is she who maintains the best voltage in all circumstances.

See that for example:
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/batteries/18650/73617-lg-m36-vs-sam...

SKV89
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HydrAxx wrote:
The LG M36 is the better cell actualy in this class, it is she who maintains the best voltage in all circumstances.

See that for example:
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/batteries/18650/73617-lg-m36-vs-sam...

I remember reading somewhere where people discredited this comparison for some reason. So unless it is tested by HKJ or Mooch, I would not trust it.

Most of the NCR18650GA rated at 3500mah actually reaches 3500mah. Whereas the eight Samsung 36G rated at 3600mah I tested never reached 3500mah. I would say the NCR18650GA has a few percent extra capacity. Both are rated at 10A. We really need a HKJ comparison to know for sure.

Is the Tesla 3400mah the Panasonic NCR18650B rated at 5A?

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According to HKJ M36 ain’t good. GA beats it on both capacity and IR.

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Agro wrote:
According to HKJ M36 ain’t good. GA beats it on both capacity and IR.

Happy are the ignorant … Tell me, have you tested the M36 yourself? But me yes, and I could compare with the Sanyo NCR18650GA (which I own too, and which for me were the most efficient before the arrival of the M36, so I do not favoritism and yet I am rather pro-SANYO) and so I can assure you after testing the GA and M36 in real conditions on various mods regulated and unregulated, that those with the best IR (certainly not much) but I especially found that at high intensity ( from 7A to 12A), the M36 maintains its voltage much higher than a GA. Seriously, test yourself, stop talking from results that you did not get yourself, after staying on the idea that GAs are the best if you like, that will make more than M36 for others … And we must compare what is comparable: the GA was conceived many years ago, while the M36 is a young cell that is no more than two years of existence, and who blessed of more knowledge and experience by the engineers who designed it as well as the latest lithium-ion battery technologies, so nothing but a test between these two cell models (GA vs M36) would not be fair.
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No, I have tested neither of these cells. If I did I would still trust HKJ results more than mine because he’s an expert and I’m not.
You’re an expert too, so we have two of you disagreeing. In such case the best thing I can do is step aside and watch and that’s what I intend to do.

vapcell Dennis
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Blushing battery have A grade ,B grade ,and test grade? The comparison of the same production date will be better.

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HydrAxx wrote:
…Seriously, test yourself, stop talking from results that you did not get yourself,

Hmm, if mankind was only to fare from own test results we would be living in caves still, civilisation is build on sharing experiences so people do not have to start everything all over again.

link to djozz tests 

“I used to think that top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that thirty years of good science could address these problems. I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy, and to deal with these we need a cultural and spiritual transformation. And we scientists don’t know how to do that.”   (Gus Speth)

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Many of HKJ's tests were done long ago, probably with earlier revisions of cells and/or in the old test station (with discharge rate dependent voltage monitoring drop). See the outdated Samsung 25R tests, for example, and compare them with newer 25R results like those of the Vapcell INR18650 2500mAh (purple) 2018 or Ampsplus INR18650 2500mAh (black).

What about the Panasonic NCR18650BM?

 

Cheers Smile 

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Barkuti wrote:

Many of HKJ’s tests were done long ago, probably with earlier revisions of cells and/or in the old test station (with discharge rate dependent voltage monitoring drop). See the outdated Samsung 25R tests, for example, and compare them with newer 25R results like those of the Vapcell INR18650 2500mAh (purple) 2018 or Ampsplus INR18650 2500mAh (black).


This time the older cell won.
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Agro wrote:

This time the older cell won.

I wasn't meaning that. I was pinpointing the lack of faithful validity of the old station OEM Samsung 25R cyan and green tests versus the aforesaid newer Vapcell/Ampsplus ones. There are further rewrap tests available, like the Enercig 18650 2500mAh (gray). Check out this Staring IMR18650 2500mAh (green) oddity too, if you will. 

 

Cheers Party 

vapcell Dennis
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Agro wrote:
According to HKJ M36 ain’t good. GA beats it on both capacity and IR.

Dear sir

LG M36 is our samples ,send to test. It was the product of LG test stage a few years ago.

Technology has been upgraded.

I hope HKJ can retest.

Thank you

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If these batteries are on HKJ’s comparator, we will all be able to see which is the best. Thanks Vapcell Dennis for sending them to HKJ.

Btw, there was a similar thread here:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/61566

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vapcell Dennis wrote:
Agro wrote:
According to HKJ M36 ain’t good. GA beats it on both capacity and IR.

Dear sir

LG M36 is our samples ,send to test. It was the product of LG test stage a few years ago.

Technology has been upgraded.

I hope HKJ can retest.

Thank you


Thank you for restoring this truth, Dennis. Because far too many people tend to believe that the tests of HKJ, Mooch, and many others … are gospel words, these people are human they make mistakes like everyone, do not necessarily have latest revisions of the cells they are testing, each using a different test protocol, do not use the same hardware for their testing, etc … could be continued like this for a long time. What I was trying to say is that to say: “I saw in the tests to such are better, the cells according to such are null, etc …”, it is done you your own experience instead of using that of others, because everyone can make mistakes and me including of course, that’s why I prefer not to trust any particular test, but rather to study the tests of all the world to have a global and grounded opinion.

Going back to the LG M36, did you know that they existed in two versions? Me yes, because by dint of research I came across a PDF doculentation produced by a US aerospace company to the attention of NASA itself, documentation highlighting the existence of two types of cell M36: the M36T and the M36BV (BV for bottom venting, because on this version the cell M36, there is a circular cut on the negative pole side like on the LG 21700 M50), you guessed it the M36 cell that is found in the majority market is the M36T (which has a negative pole standard) and apparently its specifications and chemistry seem to differ between the two variants (one is indicated at 5A continuous discharge, the other at 10A, which makes the use of the M36 quite ambiguous). But the main subject of the document I’m talking about is the use of the different cells of existing continuous amps mounted in batterypack and their use in space (security, optimization of cell occupancy slots in the packs, etc …), I also shared this document with Mooch himself, who thanked me for the find of this document: “Very Interesting!” it’s his words, not mine. If you are interested I can send you this document by PM, it is very informative (especially the comparison of old and current 10A cells). And so to finish, for this aerospace company (which provides NASA anyway, it’s not nothing) LG M36 cell is the best, compared to: VC7, 36G, MJ1, GA and 35E (continuous discharge curves to support to different discharge rates of course), and sincerely I think they know what they are talking about given their area of activity and the amount of information and factors considered in this document.

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Interesting findings HydrAxx, thanks.

I also do notice grade/batch cell differences, mostly among rewraps in the tables. On the other hand, I find amusing how some people gets stuck in the highest figures they've seen in the tables even besides cost factors. Recently I recommended a DIY powerbank to a friend, though despite two nice offers of 8x LG MJ1 and 8x Panasonic NCR18650BM cells he's opting for 7x Samsung 35Es at a higher price because it yielded the highest capacity in HKJ's tables. 

 

Cheers Party 

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Barkuti wrote:

Interesting findings HydrAxx, thanks.


I also do notice grade/batch cell differences, mostly among rewraps in the tables. On the other hand, I find amusing how some people gets stuck in the highest figures they’ve seen in the tables even besides cost factors. Recently I recommended a DIY powerbank to a friend, though despite two nice offers of 8x LG MJ1 and 8x Panasonic NCR18650BM cells he’s opting for 7x Samsung 35Es at a higher price because it yielded the highest capacity in HKJ’s tables. 


 


Cheers Party 


Yes, totally agree with you, and what guarantees him that he will get 7 cells 35E having a grade equivalent to those tested by HKJ, because if he gets a lower grade, he will have spent more for nothing in the end. Many people forget to take into account some important factors: the grade, the revision of the cell and in what condition has occurred the storage of cells purchased.
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HydrAxx wrote:

Happy are the ignorant … Tell me, have you tested the M36 yourself?

I guess if he hasn’t tested it himself and can’t rely on HKJ’s results, then that means he also shouldn’t listen to your results.
Great job calling people ignorant Wink very nice attitude.
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HydrAxx wrote:
Barkuti wrote:

Interesting findings HydrAxx, thanks.


I also do notice grade/batch cell differences, mostly among rewraps in the tables. On the other hand, I find amusing how some people gets stuck in the highest figures they’ve seen in the tables even besides cost factors. Recently I recommended a DIY powerbank to a friend, though despite two nice offers of 8x LG MJ1 and 8x Panasonic NCR18650BM cells he’s opting for 7x Samsung 35Es at a higher price because it yielded the highest capacity in HKJ’s tables. 


 


Cheers Party 


Yes, totally agree with you, and what guarantees him that he will get 7 cells 35E having a grade equivalent to those tested by HKJ, because if he gets a lower grade, he will have spent more for nothing in the end. Many people forget to take into account some important factors: the grade, the revision of the cell and in what condition has occurred the storage of cells purchased.

How can a reviewer tell what grade did they get?
How can a regular enthusiast ensure they get a good grade?
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Well, I did not meant to judge or misjudge my friend, but I know he has a certain “the bigger, the better” attitude, which in this case I reinforced after disclosing him the proven great lifecycle of Samsung cells.

Conversely for me I'd grab a pack of much cheaper NCR18650BMs which, probably and at most, would only “downgrade” his powerbank from ≈23.5 to ≈22Ah, paying nearly €7 less and getting an extra cell for his flashlight. Of course for him this is just about bragging rights. Smile

 

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HydrAxx wrote:
the existence of two types of cell M36: the M36T and the M36BV (BV for bottom venting, because on this version the cell M36, there is a circular cut on the negative pole side like on the LG 21700 M50), you guessed it the M36 cell that is found in the majority market is the M36T (which has a negative pole standard) and apparently its specifications and chemistry seem to differ between the two variants (one is indicated at 5A continuous discharge, the other at 10A, which makes the use of the M36 quite ambiguous)….. LG M36 cell is the best, compared to: VC7, 36G, MJ1, GA and 35E (continuous discharge curves to support to different discharge rates of course).

Even if this study is true and there exist a sample of the M36 that performs superior to the other brand cells, how do we know which M36 type/revision we are getting? With this uncertainty, I still would prefer getting a GA, which is known to perform well as tested by many.

Also I don’t know that the information published by this aerospace company holds more water than what HKJ or Mooch publishes. I used to be employed by a large engineering firm that does work for government projects and I worked on many of the highest profile and technically challenging projects as one of the lead engineers. Now I work for myself but the projects I work on are less than a tiny fraction of a percent of the dollar value of the projects I used to work on. However, the quality of the work I put out are not any less than the quality of the work I put out when I was employed at the large firm. It’s just that the projects I do now are much smaller and the rate I charge are far less than what a large firm would charge. So I personally think just because something came from a large firm contracted with a government entity, doesn’t mean it is better. I would not be surprised if Mooch and HKJ, with their great passion for this subject matter, know more and are smarter than many (or majority) of the staff employed by this aerospace company. If Mooch or HKJ were hired by such companies, they can probably or easily be placed in a senior technical expert classification.

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Enderman wrote:
HydrAxx wrote:
Happy are the ignorant … Tell me, have you tested the M36 yourself?
I guess if he hasn’t tested it himself and can’t rely on HKJ’s results, then that means he also shouldn’t listen to your results. Great job calling people ignorant Wink very nice attitude.

Yes, these people are ignorant and I’m not ashamed to say it, because they are good only to use the tests they like (whose results they like, so no objectivity) and they have not done themselves and in fact would not even be able to perform this type of tests properly for the most part, and those whose results they do not like, they dare to say that they are wrong or incorrect, for summary what annoys me those who speak without actually knowing what they are talking about, who have never made a single test themselves, they use the work of others (which does not belong to them in any case) to say: I have reasons on this, I have reasons on that with for only arguments results that it did not obtain by themselves or even verified, it would be really annoying to see HKJ, Mooch, or n ‘ any other testers published a “fake” test with values ​​and results completely fa and illogical, and to see these people debate from bogus and irrational results, they would have fully passed for what they are ignorant without the least spirit of initiative, sheep who stupidly follow what they are told, and then after a few posts and debates, the tester who published his faketest comes to confess the truth about this thread, and all these people would close their mouths strangely for a while (with some exceptions).

When one wants to affirm things, one carries out tests, does researches on the subject and nien sure one verifies its sources, before publishing idiotically of the answers integrating the results obtained in tests which they did not do them- even.

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SKV89 wrote:
HydrAxx wrote:
the existence of two types of cell M36: the M36T and the M36BV (BV for bottom venting, because on this version the cell M36, there is a circular cut on the negative pole side like on the LG 21700 M50), you guessed it the M36 cell that is found in the majority market is the M36T (which has a negative pole standard) and apparently its specifications and chemistry seem to differ between the two variants (one is indicated at 5A continuous discharge, the other at 10A, which makes the use of the M36 quite ambiguous)….. LG M36 cell is the best, compared to: VC7, 36G, MJ1, GA and 35E (continuous discharge curves to support to different discharge rates of course).

Even if this study is true and there exist a sample of the M36 that performs superior to the other brand cells, how do we know which M36 type/revision we are getting? With this uncertainty, I still would prefer getting a GA, which is known to perform well as tested by many.

Also I don’t know that the information published by this aerospace company holds more water than what HKJ or Mooch publishes. I used to be employed by a large engineering firm that does work for government projects and I worked on many of the highest profile and technically challenging projects as one of the lead engineers. Now I work for myself but the projects I work on are less than a tiny fraction of a percent of the dollar value of the projects I used to work on. However, the quality of the work I put out are not any less than the quality of the work I put out when I was employed at the large firm. It’s just that the projects I do now are much smaller and the rate I charge are far less than what a large firm would charge. So I personally think just because something came from a large firm contracted with a government entity, doesn’t mean it is better. I would not be surprised if Mooch and HKJ, with their great passion for this subject matter, know more and are smarter than many (or majority) of the staff employed by this aerospace company. If Mooch or HKJ were hired by such companies, they can probably or easily be placed in a senior technical expert classification.

I never said that it was a M36 more powerful than another, I said that there were two variants with different specifications given by the manufacturer, but in reality (in practice) they are also performing one than the other, it’s just that LG gives more conservative specifications (thus improving their lifetime, this in theory of course), but otherwise it’s exactly the same cells for both versions , the only exception is a version with a bottom venting the other not but this does not affect their respective performances, because they are both able to hold 10A without problem or overheating, even for the one with a specification indicating 5A continuous discharge.

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I believe 36G wins, it is mentioned twice in the title. LOL

Anyway for me VC7, 36G, and whatever Tesla 3400mAhs are like paper launches to me because where are those for sale? And how much? M36s are already a tad pricey versus 35Es at NKON, for example.

Anyway, who wants such crap? Get some VTC7s my dears… 

 

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What a wonderful forum about batteries! Thumbs Up

I’m already testing for some time a cycle life performance of modern cells. I can say that common discharge tests cannot be used to assessment about cycle life. There are huge differences in cycle life of above mentioned cells. Generally speaking, the most problematic in this particular parameter is almost all Samsung`s 18650 and 21700 production. On the other side is the LG Chem production. Particularly the MJ1 and its successor M36T in 18650 size excels in cycle life parameter. Panasonic, Tesla(=Panasonic) and Sony is somewhere between.

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Pajda cz wrote:
… Generally speaking, the most problematic in this particular parameter is almost all Samsung`s 18650 and 21700 production. On the other side is the LG Chem production. Particularly the MJ1 and its successor M36T in 18650 size excels in cycle life parameter. Panasonic, Tesla(=Panasonic) and Sony is somewhere between.

Bullshit! Samsung do feature top class lifecycle characteristics:

  • Bench Test Results: Which lasts longer? VTC6, 30Q, or HG2? @ E-CigaretteForum
  • Trisky wrote:

    Batteries can't just look at very external parameters

    Samsung 26F 2600mAH is a very high-quality electrical core, good product consistency, high cycle life

    The quality of LG M26 is average

    Sanyo UR18650FM 2600mAH is more expensive, close to the cost price of 3 U.S. dollars

    But it's still used by many companies

    Then the retail market of foreign trade is very confusing, many fakes, you will detect discrimination? That's a low price, a dime a share. Many domestic electric cores are used for rewap fake vtc5,25r etc

    Or fake 25R uses 22P, fake HG2 uses MG1 or MH1,VTC5A use vtc5

    Source.

 

Smile 

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I know this test well Smile , the results are fine but unfortunately it is a bit misleading. The problem is that 30Q will loss the same amount of capacity even under 0.5C charge – 1C discharge 100% DoD cycle test, but LG HG2 and SONY VTC6 will loss much less under this low load test. So 30Q is dead after ca 400cycles no matter of the load, but LG, Sony and Panasonic cells can do 1000 cycles when cycled at 0.5C-1C.

Trust me or not I have have made many tests of 30Q samples from three different distributors with the same results. Crying

And yes, I was misled you a bit too. 25R, 26J and 29E which I have already tested have good cycle life (not significantly better or worse than LG, Sony or Pana competitors) but everything above 3000mAh in 18650 format from Samsung is very problematic in this particular parameter.

And in the 21700 line is not better.

48G is dead after only 300cycles at 0.5C-1C 100%DoD.
40T is 12% down after 100cycles at 0.5C-1C 100%DoD.

for example

LG M50 is 7% down after 100 cycles and only 16% down after 850cycles! 0.5C-1C 100% DoD

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When I said that the LG M36 was the 10A high capacity cell that best holds its voltage or rather is the least susceptible to voltage sag, here is a good example:

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