TLF/BLF/Lumintop FW3A review (18650, 3x XP-L HI cool white)

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Lumeniac
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awesome review, thanx!

aginthelaw
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DB Custom wrote:
Here ya go HC, 18 Samsung LH351D W6 5000K with domes sliced off, in moon mode…

Future FW3A buyers can look forward to the day the Samsungs are available, or mod their new lights. Wink

I’ll take it. Do you need my shipping address?

Did shaving make them throwier (is that a word)? How much was the tint shift?

never fear shadows…it means a light shines nearby

BurningPlayd0h
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aginthelaw wrote:
DB Custom wrote:
Here ya go HC, 18 Samsung LH351D W6 5000K with domes sliced off, in moon mode…

Future FW3A buyers can look forward to the day the Samsungs are available, or mod their new lights. Wink

I’ll take it. Do you need my shipping address?

Did shaving make them throwier (is that a word)? How much was the tint shift?

I’ve shaved all the LH351Ds I have, it made them throwier (more throw than a X-PL HD, less than an HI… maybe more throw if you cut very close to the phosphor?), the color temp goes down ~500-1000 degrees and the tint gets rosier depending on how much you slice off. I took off maybe 1/2 of the height of the dome to get the result I wanted.

Tests of them show about 10-15% output loss at most power levels, and I’d say it looks that way to my eyes as well. In the same host at the same current a shaved 4000K got pretty close to the throw of a stock 4000K SST-20 and had a wider beam.

aginthelaw
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I really need to learn soldering. Sounds exactly where i need it to be

never fear shadows…it means a light shines nearby

BurningPlayd0h
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aginthelaw wrote:
I really need to learn soldering. Sounds exactly where i need it to be

If you’re bold/stupid/have steady hands you could partially shave some lights without removing the MCPCB. Not saying that it’s a good idea or that I would ever do that out of sheer laziness but it’s possible. Wink

stephenk
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Are there any videos available showing how to change optics on the FW3A?

M3CSL
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I haven’t found any, but you’d just have to unscrew the bezel, change the optics and screw it back again.

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Received my production FW3A w/ XP-L HI 3D today. Works perfectly, even though I did tighten the driver retaining ring before even turning the light on for the first time. The finish is just slightly lighter and bluer than the proto.

The little protrusion on the clip ring is perfectly fine. It helps with the cigar grip, while the proto with a narrower ring is a bit slippery.

The emitters aren’t rosy for sure, but I’ve noticed that lower CRI emitters don’t look as green as for example CRI90 219Cs with similar duvs. This measured 4600K duv 0.0063 at 1×7135, but visually was alright. Gets closer to BBL on higher modes (8×7135, FET). The fine visual experience is also explained by my current ambient lighting conditions that are even greener (4800K duv 0.0085) because of UV blocking windows and lots of trees outside.

Integrated, the tint is not as bad as in the hotspot. So there is some tint shift in the beam but it’s not very visible to the eye. Output is 139 lumens in the 1×7135 mode.

Nichia 219b sw40 integrated at 1×7135, 83 lumens:

JasonWW
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Your 3D doesn’t look rosy? Mine sure does. I like it.

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Tom E
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I'm not sure what the graphics all mean, never did understand, but where can I find the results regarding above/below the BBL? What's the test result relative to the BBL?

I find my 3D FW3A surprisingly more blue/green than rosy.

maukka
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Duv (delta uv) is the metric which shows how far and in which direction the source is in reference to the BBL. Positive duv is green (yellow on low CCT sources), negative is rosy/pink/magenta. At least to me, some emitters seem visually more neutral on a white wall than others even with similar CCT and duv. Even a slight tint shift within the beam also affects how the beam on average is perceived even if it’s not obvious on non-rainbow like emitters like the XP-G3.

I would consider duv ±0.0030 neutral. The 219C CRI80 or XP-L HI in CRI70 look neutral even above 0.0030, but most CRI90 emitters do look greener even when they are closer to the BBL. SST-20 for me is the worst in this regard, looking greenish even when it’s near the BBL.

Objectively, the 3D in my FW3A is greenish, but much less so when evaluated visually. Most high CRI emitters we use would look pretty horrible at duv 0.0060.

maukka
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The 3D had to give way for some dogfarts (LH351D 5000K CRI90) and a slight minus green filter (Zircon 804) and Carclo 10507.

1×7135 output dropped from 139 lm with XP-L HI to 125 lm with just the emitter change. 10507 brought it up to 126 lm and finishing with the minus green got me 112 lumens.

FET output at turn on (30Q):
XP-L HI 3D: 3035 lm
LH351D dogfarts: 2626 lm
with 804: 2334 lm

Final results is under BBL with 1×7135 and full FET.

candor
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maukka, any chance you have some comparison beamshots?

maukka
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Nothing on the LH351D version, but here’s 219B sw40 vs. XP-L HI 3D on a white wall and a floor with reddish tint. Should be obvious which is which.

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I appreciate it. I’m curious about the dogfarts with the 10507. Are you pleased with it? Beam profile-wise?

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Maukka, did you have an XP-L HI 7A emitter in your hands? I am interested in measurements and how it falls in FW3A.

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maukka
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No, I don’t have the 7A.

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maukka wrote:
LH351D dogfarts: 2626 lm with 804: 2334 lm

Stock or de-domed/sliced?

maukka
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Dome on.

It’s pretty much a wash between dedoming and filtering when it comes to output. If you want a tighter spot, then dedome away, but for me, I kinda like the wide even spot of the stock LH351D and 10507. Great for closeup work while still retaining some throw.

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maukka wrote:
some emitters seem visually more neutral on a white wall than others even with similar CCT and duv… The 219C CRI80 or XP-L HI in CRI70 look neutral even above 0.0030, but most CRI90 emitters do look greener even when they are closer to the BBL. SST-20 for me is the worst in this regard, looking greenish even when it’s near the BBL.

That matches my experience too. Perhaps I should finally get a sheet of minus-green material and stop being so picky about which emitters are used. Almost everything is going to look green, so I should put some rose-tinted glass over it to make things look better.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
maukka wrote:
some emitters seem visually more neutral on a white wall than others even with similar CCT and duv… The 219C CRI80 or XP-L HI in CRI70 look neutral even above 0.0030, but most CRI90 emitters do look greener even when they are closer to the BBL. SST-20 for me is the worst in this regard, looking greenish even when it’s near the BBL.

That matches my experience too. Perhaps I should finally get a sheet of minus-green material and stop being so picky about which emitters are used. Almost everything is going to look green, so I should put some rose-tinted glass over it to make things look better.

Lee Minus Green filters are great stuff!

I have a #279 filter in my modded FW3A right now. It’s not a Zircon filter so probably won’t last super-long in high-brightness LED applications. But on the other hand it came in a roll big enough for a hundred small flashlights.

It does reduce output 14% and makes the tint warmer though. Currently using it with 2× 5D and 1× 3D emitter.

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Banggood.com have just sent me 2 XPL HI 5000K for review, I’m not sure why they sent me 2 but they are very very different

One has a frosted optic and Nichia Like tint the other has a clear optic and yellowish typical XPL 5000k tint.
The frosted one gets anywhere from 2800 to 3700 at turn on and the clear optic one gets 2600 every time.

The Frosted one is also temperamental in muggle mode, often doubling it’s power to 600ish lumens.

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Flashaholics wrote:
Banggood.com have just sent me 2 XPL HI 5000K for review, I’m not sure why they sent me 2 but they are very very different

One has a frosted optic and Nichia Like tint the other has a clear optic and yellowish typical XPL 5000k tint.
The frosted one gets anywhere from 2800 to 3700 at turn on and the clear optic one gets 2600 every time.

The Frosted one is also temperamental in muggle mode, often doubling it’s power to 600ish lumens.

How do the optics look like?

Below is a sample of the “plastic optic”, Carclo 10511, and Carclo 10507 optic on the FW3A.

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The frosted one looks like the middle light but my clear optic is different from the clear one in the pic, mine doesn’t have the 3 spokes in the middle.

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It’s likely your clear one has the copied optics made in China. It’s supposed to have lower lumens and yours exhibits that behavior. Replace it with a factory Carclo 10507 and you should see a pretty nice lumens increase.

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DB Custom wrote:
It’s likely your clear one has the copied optics made in China. It’s supposed to have lower lumens and yours exhibits that behavior. Replace it with a factory Carclo 10507 and you should see a pretty nice lumens increase.

Cheers. Lumintop contacted me asking why banggood was all over the review, I forgot they’d also sent me one, oops.

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I had no idea there were clone 10507s out there. Thanks Dale, i will check mine.

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I was not in the group buy but have recently been looking at the Titanium variant. I noticed an alert on Neal’s pages about lower numbers out of a cloned, made in China, optic. I still haven’t bought one but was looking at the sapphire lens to go with the Ti/Cu FW3A and as I already have clear spot optics that part wasn’t a concern for me… a little surprising but not really a big deal as they are so easily changed out.

The polished copper has an appeal to me as well … always something, isn’t it?

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anyone got a link to the runtimes in steped mode?

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monkeyman77 wrote:
Anyone got a link to the runtimes in stepped mode?

It will vary based on the battery and leds. I think this is all we have.
ToyKeeper wrote:
d_t_a wrote:
Is there some rough computation guide for lumens to runtime (let’s assume the battery is a 3000mAh 18650 like an LG HG2 or INR18650-30Q)?

I’ve been meaning to make a table for that… and there’s no time like the present.

This is only an estimate, generated by plugging the firmware’s PWM values into a script with some guesses about the power draw and lumen output… but it should give people a rough idea what to expect.

All 150 ramp levels with a 3000 mAh cell:

  1:    0.2 lm,     2 mA, 74 days
  2:    0.2 lm,     2 mA, 74 days
  3:    0.8 lm,     3 mA, 41 days
  4:    0.8 lm,     3 mA, 41 days
  5:    1.5 lm,     4 mA, 28 days
  6:    1.5 lm,     4 mA, 28 days
  7:    2.1 lm,     7 mA, 17 days
  8:    2.1 lm,     7 mA, 17 days
  9:    2.7 lm,     9 mA, 14 days
 10:    3.3 lm,    10 mA, 12 days
 11:    4.0 lm,    11 mA, 11 days
 12:    4.6 lm,    13 mA, 10 days
 13:    5.2 lm,    14 mA, 9 days
 14:    5.9 lm,    16 mA, 8 days
 15:    7.1 lm,    18 mA, 7 days
 16:    7.7 lm,    22 mA, 6 days
 17:    8.4 lm,    24 mA, 5 days
 18:    9.0 lm,    25 mA, 5 days
 19:   10.3 lm,    28 mA, 5 days
 20:   11.5 lm,    30 mA, 4 days
 21:   12.2 lm,    32 mA, 94 hours
 22:   13.4 lm,    35 mA, 87 hours
 23:   14.7 lm,    37 mA, 80 hours
 24:   15.9 lm,    40 mA, 75 hours
 25:   17.8 lm,    44 mA, 68 hours
 26:   19.1 lm,    47 mA, 64 hours
 27:   21.0 lm,    51 mA, 59 hours
 28:   22.2 lm,    54 mA, 56 hours
 29:   24.1 lm,    58 mA, 52 hours
 30:   26.0 lm,    62 mA, 48 hours
 31:   27.9 lm,    66 mA, 45 hours
 32:   29.8 lm,    70 mA, 43 hours
 33:   31.7 lm,    74 mA, 40 hours
 34:   34.2 lm,    80 mA, 38 hours
 35:   36.7 lm,    85 mA, 35 hours
 36:   38.6 lm,    90 mA, 33 hours
 37:   41.1 lm,    95 mA, 32 hours
 38:   43.6 lm,   101 mA, 30 hours
 39:   46.8 lm,   107 mA, 28 hours
 40:   49.3 lm,   113 mA, 27 hours
 41:   52.4 lm,   120 mA, 25 hours
 42:   55.6 lm,   127 mA, 24 hours
 43:   58.1 lm,   132 mA, 23 hours
 44:   61.9 lm,   140 mA, 21 hours
 45:   65.0 lm,   147 mA, 20 hours
 46:   68.8 lm,   156 mA, 19 hours
 47:   71.9 lm,   162 mA, 18 hours
 48:   75.7 lm,   171 mA, 18 hours
 49:   79.5 lm,   179 mA, 17 hours
 50:   83.9 lm,   189 mA, 16 hours
 51:   87.6 lm,   197 mA, 15 hours
 52:   92.1 lm,   206 mA, 15 hours
 53:   96.5 lm,   216 mA, 14 hours
 54:  100.9 lm,   226 mA, 13 hours
 55:  105.3 lm,   235 mA, 13 hours
 56:  110.3 lm,   246 mA, 12 hours
 57:  115.3 lm,   257 mA, 12 hours
 58:  120.4 lm,   268 mA, 11 hours
 59:  125.4 lm,   279 mA, 11 hours
 60:  131.1 lm,   292 mA, 10 hours
 61:  136.1 lm,   303 mA, 10 hours
 62:  141.8 lm,   315 mA, 10 hours
 63:  148.0 lm,   329 mA, 9 hours
 64:  153.7 lm,   341 mA, 9 hours
 65:  160.0 lm,   355 mA, 8 hours
 66:  164.7 lm,   370 mA, 8 hours
 67:  172.1 lm,   389 mA, 8 hours
 68:  179.5 lm,   408 mA, 7 hours
 69:  186.9 lm,   427 mA, 7 hours
 70:  194.3 lm,   447 mA, 7 hours
 71:  205.4 lm,   476 mA, 6 hours
 72:  212.8 lm,   495 mA, 6 hours
 73:  220.1 lm,   514 mA, 6 hours
 74:  227.5 lm,   533 mA, 6 hours
 75:  238.6 lm,   562 mA, 5 hours
 76:  246.0 lm,   581 mA, 5 hours
 77:  253.4 lm,   596 mA, 5 hours
 78:  264.5 lm,   625 mA, 5 hours
 79:  271.9 lm,   644 mA, 5 hours
 80:  283.0 lm,   673 mA, 4 hours
 81:  294.1 lm,   702 mA, 4 hours
 82:  301.5 lm,   721 mA, 4 hours
 83:  312.6 lm,   750 mA, 4 hours
 84:  323.7 lm,   779 mA, 231 minutes
 85:  334.8 lm,   807 mA, 223 minutes
 86:  345.8 lm,   836 mA, 215 minutes
 87:  356.9 lm,   865 mA, 208 minutes
 88:  368.0 lm,   894 mA, 201 minutes
 89:  379.1 lm,   923 mA, 195 minutes
 90:  393.9 lm,   961 mA, 187 minutes
 91:  405.0 lm,   990 mA, 182 minutes
 92:  416.1 lm,  1019 mA, 177 minutes
 93:  430.9 lm,  1058 mA, 170 minutes
 94:  442.0 lm,  1087 mA, 166 minutes
 95:  456.7 lm,  1125 mA, 160 minutes
 96:  471.5 lm,  1164 mA, 155 minutes
 97:  482.6 lm,  1192 mA, 151 minutes
 98:  497.4 lm,  1231 mA, 146 minutes
 99:  512.2 lm,  1269 mA, 142 minutes
100:  527.0 lm,  1308 mA, 138 minutes
101:  541.8 lm,  1346 mA, 134 minutes
102:  556.6 lm,  1385 mA, 130 minutes
103:  571.4 lm,  1423 mA, 126 minutes
104:  586.1 lm,  1462 mA, 123 minutes
105:  604.6 lm,  1510 mA, 119 minutes
106:  619.4 lm,  1549 mA, 116 minutes
107:  637.9 lm,  1597 mA, 113 minutes
108:  652.7 lm,  1635 mA, 110 minutes
109:  671.2 lm,  1683 mA, 107 minutes
110:  686.0 lm,  1722 mA, 105 minutes
111:  704.4 lm,  1770 mA, 102 minutes
112:  722.9 lm,  1818 mA, 99 minutes
113:  741.4 lm,  1866 mA, 96 minutes
114:  759.9 lm,  1914 mA, 94 minutes
115:  778.4 lm,  1963 mA, 92 minutes
116:  796.9 lm,  2011 mA, 90 minutes
117:  819.0 lm,  2068 mA, 87 minutes
118:  837.5 lm,  2117 mA, 85 minutes
119:  856.0 lm,  2165 mA, 83 minutes
120:  878.2 lm,  2222 mA, 81 minutes
121:  900.4 lm,  2280 mA, 79 minutes
122:  918.9 lm,  2328 mA, 77 minutes
123:  941.0 lm,  2386 mA, 75 minutes
124:  963.2 lm,  2444 mA, 74 minutes
125:  985.4 lm,  2502 mA, 72 minutes
126: 1007.6 lm,  2559 mA, 70 minutes
127: 1029.8 lm,  2617 mA, 69 minutes
128: 1055.6 lm,  2684 mA, 67 minutes
129: 1077.8 lm,  2742 mA, 66 minutes
130: 1100.0 lm,  2800 mA, 64 minutes
131: 1157.9 lm,  3053 mA, 59 minutes
132: 1239.9 lm,  3451 mA, 52 minutes
133: 1329.4 lm,  3886 mA, 46 minutes
134: 1418.9 lm,  4320 mA, 42 minutes
135: 1508.4 lm,  4755 mA, 38 minutes
136: 1597.9 lm,  5190 mA, 35 minutes
137: 1687.4 lm,  5625 mA, 32 minutes
138: 1776.9 lm,  6059 mA, 30 minutes
139: 1873.9 lm,  6530 mA, 28 minutes
140: 1970.8 lm,  7001 mA, 26 minutes
141: 2067.8 lm,  7472 mA, 24 minutes
142: 2164.7 lm,  7943 mA, 23 minutes
143: 2269.1 lm,  8450 mA, 21 minutes
144: 2366.1 lm,  8921 mA, 20 minutes
145: 2470.5 lm,  9428 mA, 19 minutes
146: 2574.9 lm,  9935 mA, 18 minutes
147: 2679.3 lm, 10442 mA, 17 minutes
148: 2783.7 lm, 10949 mA, 16 minutes
149: 2888.1 lm, 11457 mA, 16 minutes
150: 3000.0 lm, 12000 mA, 15 minutes

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