Interesting optics thread

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Agro
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It doesn’t look so to me.
First, it seems to have a small metallized ring at the front that I can’t explain otherwise than “it directs light towards the main reflector”.

Second – it’s just too flat and angles don’t seem to add up. I think it would generate extremely wide beam with light hitting the side reflector directly. And we know that it actually collimates fine. Not neearly as well as a TIR in Olight S1 Mini but the output is nevertheless quite throwy.

LouieAtienza
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Hard to tell from the pic, it could be just a reflection of the reflector surface too. But I don’t have access to one so I defer to the guys that do…

Fraen makes a cool optic for COBs; nested multi TIR which supposedly reduces spill. Would be great if they made them for COBs larger than 22mm.

I do have these cool hybrid reflectors from Auer, and aside from working well, are quite beautiful to look at in person:
https://www.auer-lighting.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Shop/Non_Glare/Daten...

Enderman
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Agro wrote:
Oh, I forgot that lens. It seems to indeed use the same working principle. Except that Carclo has really low transmission, I suppose it spills light everywhere. That’s not the case with metallized reflector lenses.
LouieAtienza wrote:
The Fenix looks more like a hybrid reflector than a catadioptric. The hybrid reflector has a TIR that directs the light from the LED into the reflector. Polymer Optics makea then with aluminum reflector and plastic TIR. Auer in Germany makes them out of glass.

The catadioptric is literally the same thing, a hybrid tir+reflector with a metallic coating on the rear side and the center which reflects the light coming at incidence angles too large for total internal reflection. That’s what allows the optic to be so flat.
Go look up the carclo 10158 on google and you will see it works in exactly the same way.
I own 4 of them.

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Enderman wrote:
Agro wrote:
Oh, I forgot that lens. It seems to indeed use the same working principle. Except that Carclo has really low transmission, I suppose it spills light everywhere. That’s not the case with metallized reflector lenses.
LouieAtienza wrote:
The Fenix looks more like a hybrid reflector than a catadioptric. The hybrid reflector has a TIR that directs the light from the LED into the reflector. Polymer Optics makea then with aluminum reflector and plastic TIR. Auer in Germany makes them out of glass.

The catadioptric is literally the same thing, a hybrid tir+reflector with a metallic coating on the rear side and the center which reflects the light coming at incidence angles too large for total internal reflection. That’s what allows the optic to be so flat.
Go look up the carclo 10158 on google and you will see it works in exactly the same way.
I own 4 of them.

I have a couple of the 10158 in my possession as well. They basically work like the old telephoto lenses for cameras – which were great because they gave you a lot of zoom in a more compact lighter package. But you needed either a good tripod or nerves of steel to keep your hands steady.

The hybrid reflectors from Auer, Polymer Optics, and Fraen each work in a somewhat different way. The Auer seems to be a combination reflector/side-emitting TIR, the Polymer Optics seems to be just a standard reflector with a typical TIR mounted on the center, and Fraen uses what they call a nested lens. I have a couple of the 110mm narrow spot Auer Jupiter reflectors as well, and they’re a work of art even more so than an optic. Have not obtained the Fraen nested TIR yet. I do have the Polymer Optics hybrid reflectors, but they are rather small, 30mm reflectors. I do plan on retrofitting them on some cheapie hosts to see how they perform.

Enderman
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LouieAtienza wrote:

I have a couple of the 10158 in my possession as well. They basically work like the old telephoto lenses for cameras – which were great because they gave you a lot of zoom in a more compact lighter package. But you needed either a good tripod or nerves of steel to keep your hands steady.

The hybrid reflectors from Auer, Polymer Optics, and Fraen each work in a somewhat different way. The Auer seems to be a combination reflector/side-emitting TIR, the Polymer Optics seems to be just a standard reflector with a typical TIR mounted on the center, and Fraen uses what they call a nested lens. I have a couple of the 110mm narrow spot Auer Jupiter reflectors as well, and they’re a work of art even more so than an optic. Have not obtained the Fraen nested TIR yet. I do have the Polymer Optics hybrid reflectors, but they are rather small, 30mm reflectors. I do plan on retrofitting them on some cheapie hosts to see how they perform.


The links agro posted, including that fenix flashlight, work on the exact same principle.
A metallic coated center reflects light that wouldn’t get reflected by TIR and the glass/plastic at larger angles TIRs the light back down into a reflective-coated surface to bounce it forward.
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Enderman wrote:
The links agro posted, including that fenix flashlight, work on the exact same principle. A metallic coated center reflects light that wouldn’t get reflected by TIR and the glass/plastic at larger angles TIRs the light back down into a reflective-coated surface to bounce it forward.

Yes I know that. I was merely pointing out that 1) there were more than one way to skin the proverbial cat, and 2) it didn’t seem obvious to me that Fenix does indeed have some kind of reflective coated ring pointed toward the LED. I can’t determine the depth of the reflector or the angles or such as Agro pointed out based on a head-on view or even the pics in Fenix’ website. I think it’s cool nonetheless.

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Enderman, you probably know this, what does a smooth low angle TIR look like under an aspheric and catadioptric lens?

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Eleziel wrote:
Enderman, you probably know this, what does a smooth low angle TIR look like under an aspheric and catadioptric lens?

Your question is not very clear, but if I under stood it correctly you can’t put any kind of TIR under the 10158 catadioptric.
The 10158 has a small opening in the bottom that fits an LED, it is not like a lens where light goes through the whole thing.
Light enters it from a small hole and then it gets reflected/refracted forwards.

If you put the 10158 under an aspheric lens it will make a large ugly looking circle on the wall as the lens projects the front image of the 10158 which is hundreds of times bigger than an LED die.

Agro
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LouieAtienza wrote:
Hard to tell from the pic, it could be just a reflection of the reflector surface too. But I don’t have access to one so I defer to the guys that do…

Maybe….

Fraen makes a cool optic for COBs; nested multi TIR which supposedly reduces spill. Would be great if they made them for COBs larger than 22mm.

I do have these cool hybrid reflectors from Auer, and aside from working well, are quite beautiful to look at in person:
https://www.auer-lighting.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Shop/Non_Glare/Daten...

Enderman wrote:
Agro wrote:
Oh, I forgot that lens. It seems to indeed use the same working principle. Except that Carclo has really low transmission, I suppose it spills light everywhere. That’s not the case with metallized reflector lenses.
LouieAtienza wrote:
The Fenix looks more like a hybrid reflector than a catadioptric. The hybrid reflector has a TIR that directs the light from the LED into the reflector. Polymer Optics makea then with aluminum reflector and plastic TIR. Auer in Germany makes them out of glass.

The catadioptric is literally the same thing, a hybrid tir+reflector with a metallic coating on the rear side and the center which reflects the light coming at incidence angles too large for total internal reflection. That’s what allows the optic to be so flat.
Go look up the carclo 10158 on google and you will see it works in exactly the same way.
I own 4 of them.


I thought it used TIR and not metallization. Thanks for setting me straight.
So…it’s the best documented lens of this type and is clearly a poor performer. Sad
LouieAtienza
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Agro wrote:
LouieAtienza wrote:
Hard to tell from the pic, it could be just a reflection of the reflector surface too. But I don’t have access to one so I defer to the guys that do…

Maybe….

Fraen makes a cool optic for COBs; nested multi TIR which supposedly reduces spill. Would be great if they made them for COBs larger than 22mm.

I do have these cool hybrid reflectors from Auer, and aside from working well, are quite beautiful to look at in person:
https://www.auer-lighting.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Shop/Non_Glare/Daten...


Enderman wrote:
Agro wrote:
Oh, I forgot that lens. It seems to indeed use the same working principle. Except that Carclo has really low transmission, I suppose it spills light everywhere. That’s not the case with metallized reflector lenses.
LouieAtienza wrote:
The Fenix looks more like a hybrid reflector than a catadioptric. The hybrid reflector has a TIR that directs the light from the LED into the reflector. Polymer Optics makea then with aluminum reflector and plastic TIR. Auer in Germany makes them out of glass.

The catadioptric is literally the same thing, a hybrid tir+reflector with a metallic coating on the rear side and the center which reflects the light coming at incidence angles too large for total internal reflection. That’s what allows the optic to be so flat.
Go look up the carclo 10158 on google and you will see it works in exactly the same way.
I own 4 of them.


I thought it used TIR and not metallization. Thanks for setting me straight.
So…it’s the best documented lens of this type and is clearly a poor performer. :([/quote]

It does use TIR but not in the conventional way. The light rays bounce off the top lens surface. The area in the center where the angle of incidence is too great for the TIR effect gets a reflective coating.

Agro
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OK, I think I finally have the full picture.

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Agro wrote:
OK, I think I finally have the full picture.

I think it works well, though as you could probably imagine it works better for certain emitters…. STO uses a similar if not the same lens on one of their lights.

Agro
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You mean Eye of Sekhmet? Could that be 10158? Size seems to roughtly match.

BTW, I found another maker. Darkoo.
https://darkoo.en.alibaba.com/product/60207790792-800924401/AR111_Light_...

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 here

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Here’s a very interesting LED/compound parabolic reflector setup! I think this would be a cool setup for a handheld; if you wanted a good mix of spill and throw… Can’t find a pic of the beam however.

https://www.illumi-vation.com/product-page/mooney-m20-c-d-e-f-g-j-led-la...

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i may be out of date in my thinking here but..

car headlights, they used to have ‘fresnal’ type patterning, but it wasn’t to aid the overall throw, it was to even out the beam to get rid of dark rings and likes, or to ‘widen’ the beam, in eather case it makes the lens brighter to look at and reduces the overall throw. (bare in mind the tail end of throw is a pitiful amount, even if it reach’s the moon you wouldn’t notice it, so it would be better spent being spread into the usable beam).

the one thing i have noticed about focusing lenses is they do turn into a cinema projection, but mostly they cut out the spill, i’ve only played with a dozen or so torch’s but the one thing that was blattent was theres more throw with unlensed, e.g. i got a couple ‘throwers’ with massive focussing lenses on, now whilst i was actually impressed by the apparent throw, an el cheepo bike light with an old T-6 in it out threw them all, all be it with half a field worth of side spill. (no magnifying, just a standard non coated crappy face plate lens).

to further my thinking, i have a red led with a focusing lens i used for wild life, simply because there is next to zero side spill, quite literally a tight square led projection arriving un announced at the other end..but, again, the el cheepo dish out throws it with heck of a lot of side spill.

the reflector shape seems to have more effect.

just a thought there..at the end of the day there’s the rules of thumb, and then when you try you see it was the other thumb.

Enderman
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If you use math instead of rules of thumb then you can determine the performance without even physically having the components.

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Enderman wrote:
If you use math instead of rules of thumb then you can determine the performance without even physically having the components.

it depends on who’s maths. i.e. the punter maths v the real maths. google really isnt your friend lol.

edit, that wasn’t a poke at you btw. more of a sometimes you have to try even if its against the thermal laws of dynamics.(which btw is only one set of maths, and contrary to belief is not the only holy grail of truth.).

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LouieAtienza wrote:
Here’s a very interesting LED/compound parabolic reflector setup! I think this would be a cool setup for a handheld; if you wanted a good mix of spill and throw… Can’t find a pic of the beam however.

https://www.illumi-vation.com/product-page/mooney-m20-c-d-e-f-g-j-led-la...


I’m not sure if I understand the setup correctly…
Is is something like this ?
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Agro wrote:
LouieAtienza wrote:
Here’s a very interesting LED/compound parabolic reflector setup! I think this would be a cool setup for a handheld; if you wanted a good mix of spill and throw… Can’t find a pic of the beam however.

https://www.illumi-vation.com/product-page/mooney-m20-c-d-e-f-g-j-led-la...


I’m not sure if I understand the setup correctly…
Is is something like this ?
!http://dmcleish.com/CPF/McRee-XR-E/3-Shooter.jpg!

I’m thinking so…

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Agro wrote:

I’m not sure if I understand the setup correctly…
Is is something like this ?
!http://dmcleish.com/CPF/McRee-XR-E/3-Shooter.jpg!

Yes, it has multiple parabola sections each with their focal point for one of the LEDs.
Basically same throw as a normal single parabola+single LED config but with more lumens.
Harder to cool the LEDs though since they stick out forward, kinda like car LED headlight bulbs.
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In theory yes, but McGizmo’s beamshots looked very bad which makes me sceptical about such construction.

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It’s not easy to make a shape like that.
It’s hard enough making a proper parabola for most manufacturers.

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Agro wrote:
In theory yes, but McGizmo’s beamshots looked very bad which makes me sceptical about such construction.

It does not appear that the LEDs are in an optimal position of focus – each parabolic section does not seem “deep” enough. He seems to have the bottom of the LED on the focal point, not the LES. That said, there’s only one beamshot in the link and it’s pointed at a stand of trees, but I don’t see anything objectionable with it…

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I divide lights into 2 classes. Those where I want spill and those where I don’t.
If I want spill – it should have useful shape.

This reflector doesn’t fall into either class.

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Yet another RXI optics from LPI, 25 mm this time:
http://www.lpi-llc.com/Data%20Sheets/LPIPN-RXI2507LL01.pdf

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Agro wrote:
I divide lights into 2 classes. Those where I want spill and those where I don’t.
If I want spill – it should have useful shape.

This reflector doesn’t fall into either class.

Well, the thread title is Intersting Optics Thread, not beautiful beamshots against white wall… But I’ll reserve judgment until I see what something like the Illumivation light does….

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I never said it was not interesting. Wink I sure think it is.
Just that what I’ve seen doesn’t inspire my confidence that I’d like this one.

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Agro wrote:
I never said it was not interesting. Wink I sure think it is. Just that what I’ve seen doesn’t inspire my confidence that I’d like this one.

LOL yes should have inserted an emoji there. But that’s a home made thing. I would like to see the beam pattern of the Illumivation light and how it compares to the multi-reflector lights. I would think with the emitters a lot closer together it would minimize the petaling effect I’ve seen with multi-reflector lights.

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LouieAtienza wrote:
Agro wrote:
I divide lights into 2 classes. Those where I want spill and those where I don’t.
If I want spill – it should have useful shape.

This reflector doesn’t fall into either class.

Well, the thread title is Intersting Optics Thread, not beautiful beamshots against white wall… But I’ll reserve judgment until I see what something like the Illumivation light does….

you’ve been watching the you tube vids haven’t you?

whats worse than useless? an uboxing,

whats even worse than unboxing vids?

a mirrion candella flashlight beam on a house wall at ‘‘wow that’s a good 30 feet away’‘….or even..du dahhhhh 5 feet in the the airing cupboard lol. we need yards not feet, hundreds of them lol.

ok..if you just want to see the shape a 5 foot away wall will show the spill and spot………in a 5 foot room no less lol. my head hurts.

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