A new design of flashlight hits the market for $50. Another brand copies it. At what point do you not buy the original?

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Joshk
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A new design of flashlight hits the market for $50. Another brand copies it. At what point do you not buy the original?
$0.05 (If the copy is 5 cents cheaper, I will buy it.)
6% (4 votes)
$1 (If the copy is $1 cheaper, I will buy it.)
1% (1 vote)
$10 (If the copy is $10 cheaper, I will buy it.)
18% (12 votes)
$25 (If the copy is $25 cheaper, I will buy it.)
59% (40 votes)
$49 (If the copy is $49 cheaper, I will buy it.)
16% (11 votes)
Total votes: 68

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Edited by: Joshk on 08/21/2019 - 13:42
Joshk
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This assumes the quality is the same. You simply know that the original took more effort to Research and Develop.

Edit: In other words, “how much value do you place on rewarding the inventor?”

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Macka17
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Hmmm.
Several things come into it.
Do you WANT that size. Model.power of torch
Does the style, Shape suit your eye?.
Quality. Beam.
THEN you think about the price.

Personally. I. Wouldn’t buy anything first time round
(Specially new models in cars)
Let somebody else have all the stumbling blocks.
Get them sorted.
THEN… You think. Yes?????
Equal quality, works as stated and you were looking for that model.
Probably 25% off price with no name.

Just cause it a nice torch but I’m not relly wanting it.
Maybe…… 50% off. Maybe, I don’t need it.
Depends mainly on current mood with me.

I have several torches and knives over the yrs. At least as good as the named models.
for 20/25% of the originals Purchase price. (All Chinese or Malay.)

BurningPlayd0h
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Quote:
You simply know that the original took more effort to Research and Develop.

How would I know that?

Yokiamy
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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
Quote:
You simply know that the original took more effort to Research and Develop.

How would I know that?

9 out of 10 times, the copy just doesn’t reach the level of the original, for instance Jaxman Z1 and Cometa, two complete different qualities.

Maybe other users can list more examples

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grin
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No matter the price you buy the original if you can afford it. Those companies are driven by the market and im the market, if their product is good i will go out of my way to buy theirs and use it like it is a budget brand.

ZoomieFan
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It’s more that the price of the light. The Chinese ship for (practically) free all over the world.
If seen USA => Europe shipping as high as $60. Usually with the likes of UPS.
Or shops simply don’t ship abroad.

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usually i’m buying because something has broken by then (hopefully it is a long time) – usually everything is changed anyway

the one i had, isn;t being made, or some new shiny thing has come along, or whatever

or i don’t like something -> i don’t want a clone of it either

the point is, people don;t usually buy the same light month after month, then notice, “oh this looks like the same thing for 13% less – by XYZFire, let me start getting those” – they aren;t ‘‘consumables’‘ for most people.

Agro
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Depends on my relationship with each brand. Sometimes I’d pay extra to get a clone from a brand that I like.

Binford
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I voted for 50% but agree that people on here probably wouldn’t buy the same light over and over again (unless it is a special variant or collectible). I have no interest in buying 10x S2+, clone or not.

One aspect that is slightly different from many other products or industries is that the majority of flashlights more or less do the same thing. You put a battery inside, you hit the button, and light comes out.
Yes, there are different batteries, designs, sizes, output, drivers, and so on – but looking at this scenario from a high level POV, I don’t believe that most non-flashoholics understand the fine variances we look into on this forum. Does is really make a huge difference to the human eye whether you have 1,000 lumens or 1,200? Does it matter to most consumers that a flashlight has 30 minutes on high vs. 40 minutes?

50% off might justify the disadvantages of a clone (potentially lack of warranty/service, quality, features, ..)

Also, unless someone is very knowledgeable in this area, who exactly knows which light was a clone of what brand or model?

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 My question is should big companies with lobbyists and hundreds of attorneys  like apple or Disney get to use tax payer money to protect their intellectual property rights ?  What you're asking is do you have a moral obligation to not buy stolen goods even if it's a heck of a good deal ,

 this question came up in the Ikea battery thread where like a Slickdeal there was some odd loophole where someone made a pricing error or was just letting  a coupon be used that was created for people who'd signed up for a credit card .  that's just cheating the system and low level theft .

Why not just buy stuff on ebay and do disputes on everything you buy .

why not buy stuff / use it and return it... lather /rinse /repeat ad nauseum 

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Yokiamy wrote:

9 out of 10 times, the copy just doesn’t reach the level of the original

This.

I’m willing to pay a bit extra for a light that looks good, has a quality feel and won’t fail at the worst possible time.

lohtse
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Prefer the original to a copy…

Downside is the shipping!!!! Often shipping can add as much as £30 to the price of a flashlight/headlamp. Which doesn’t make them viable.. Or they will not ship to UK…. So I end up looking for a copy or similar instead…

The sellers that add the shipping often quote weight as the issue yet when I look into it myself I find the cost they charge is far more then the ACTUAL cost to ship to UK… But what can you do? And yes I suggested the methods I found to be told we will not chage the method…

Anyway if I can by the original I will if the price is REASONABLE….. But when the price to UK is nearly as much as TWICE the cost anywhere else I by a copy or similar.

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Binford wrote:
I voted for 50% but agree that people on here probably wouldn’t buy the same light over and over again (unless it is a special variant or collectible). I have no interest in buying 10x S2+,

I’ve got at least 6 assorted bargain S2/S2+ lights. Most of them were under $9 new. One is at work. One is in my car. One is in a toolbox. Several more are in drawers around the house.

Why spend $50 when $10 will do?

When it comes to > $50, then yes I would’t buy more than one unless I needed two or three identical lights.

At that price I don’t even get similar lights. I’ve got a D4S and am not going buy a D4 or even a D1. My L6 is my only large thrower. I don’t have plans to get any other large throwers.

grin
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I started to make a tool because everything available was rubbish. i couldnt keep up with the market and it was suggested i get them made in china, i wasnt interested. What ended up happening was a large company took that design and patented it now i cant legally make that item. But they also fucked the design by using shit steel and turned it into what was available before.
i still make that item and people will pay 3x for my tools over the other rubbish. I already have a new design in the event things get tricky

Macka17
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Most times items are better quality than copies.
As designer takes more care/skill on lathe/ mill, etc.
wile using better quality materials. Hence charge more to cover
both costs and his time.

Unfortunately. the “cloners” etc. use cheap labour. Materials, and employees with less skill.

IE Cheaper same looking, almost same feeling items, at a much cheaper price point.

Everybody gets angry….. Understandably.
BUT. Nowadays. In both Knives and Torches (what we talking about here)
SOME of the Chinese MFG’s have stepped up several steps and more.
With both materials and workmanship. They all use same drivers/led’s, basically.
The better ones.
Ive held and used some real expensive knives and torches, and used them.

Compared to SOME Chinese versions of certain makes.
And. Regardless of pricing.
There is very little, if any difference on quite a few (not all) of them.
Some copy’s are actually better in individual versions
According to some on here who have both.
But.
When you get down to it.

The expensive “I’d never buy one of those items”. Have THEIR market.
The mid range originals and copy’s have theirs.
and the cheap of both. Also have their niche.
So. Basically.
We aint REALLY bothering the top Original designers/builders.

We wouldn’t/couldn’t afford to buy them anyway.
So where is the problem??. I reckon.

Look at chef’s knives. The real exxy Japanese and US Custom ones
(I’ve never seen)
They ALL hold terrific prices. Up to multiple Thousands of $$$‘s.
and some have waiting lists of yrs.
Solely For the name. the steel. and the design.

There is a larger market of copies and almosts. at a fraction of their price.
They know it.
BUT… As with our items. THEIR buyers will buy theirs anyway.
The rest of us the lower level ones. Don’t bother them any.

So Why do some get knickers in twist. What we buy will never affect their back pockets.
We were NEVER going to buy their Market items anyway…
We just happy that we can get similar with lesser steel for a cheaper price.

It’s going to happen anyway.
Just forget it and get on with your lives I reckon……

slmjim
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The wording of the poll doesn't work for me.

I voted "$25.00 cheaper".

BUT...

The "I will buy it" doesn't accurately describe my mindset.  More precisely, I might buy it at that price.

 

slmjim

Great... Carnac the Magnificent tells me I just signed up for yet another expensive hobby.

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slmjim wrote:

The wording of the poll doesn't work for me.

I voted "$25.00 cheaper".

BUT...

The "I will buy it" doesn't accurately describe my mindset.  More precisely, I might buy it at that price.

 

slmjim

The poll assumes you ARE going to buy at least one of the items. Think of a light you had already decided you were going to buy, and before you hit the payment button, a clone becomes available. The question is at what level of price break you would go for the copy instead of the original.

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Where’s the “I don’t support unimaginative scumbags “ option?

 

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Macka17 wrote:
Most times items are better quality than copies.

Look at chef’s knives. The real exxy Japanese and US Custom ones
(I’ve never seen)
They ALL hold terrific prices. Up to multiple Thousands of $$$‘s.
and some have waiting lists of yrs.
Solely For the name. the steel. and the design.

There is a larger market of copies and almosts. at a fraction of their price.
They know it.

I have been cooking with the same set of Zwilling J.A. Henckels kitchen knives for over 25 years. The current price for a close match to our set is around £300.

I’ve eyed some of the Japanese ones but the prices are insane.

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At what point do I become accessory to theft?

GTFU

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Yokiamy wrote:
9 out of 10 times, the copy just doesn’t reach the level of the original, for instance Jaxman Z1 and Cometa, two complete different qualities.

Actually, the Cometa came pretty close, except for the lens and the “extra” piece (limiting ring, iirr) that the Z1 has.

Mr Jax definitely got screwed over the lens fiasco, though.

I said it as a joke but it was true, by buying up all the Cometas for 15bux from BG, we all kept BG from selling them at the 50buk going-price.

 

I was thinking more of the UTorch UT01, which definitely had switch issues. Quality was certainly lacking there.

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Ozythemandias wrote:
Where’s the “I don’t support unimaginative scumbags “ option?

I believe that option is ‘$49’, $50 – $49 = “I only buy the clone if I can get it for $1”.

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This question has too many variables

  • Where is each flashlight made and/or shipped from?
  • Was significant development burden carried by the community as in some BLF lights?
  • What specifically are the two companies involved?
  • Is there a significant quality difference between the two?
    • This could be build quality, better user interface and/or driver, better emitter or optics, etc.

If one is simply beyond my budget, I'd have to settle for the other. But there are also certain brands I'm very loyal to and would never buy the copy. For example, I'm a huge Jaxman fan, so I'd have definitely never bought a Cometa. But if a brand came out with an innovative light style with bad execution, and then someone made a "clone" with better quality, I'd likely buy the clone. This would be extremely unlikely to go against any of the brands I like because they don't cut corners on quality. Also, I would tend to want to reward companies that work with the community on projects. That said, I would be tempted to buy a TO50R HC clone just because the Wuben is frankly beyond my budget. 

Lightbringer wrote:
Mr Jax definitely got screwed over the lens fiasco, though.

Yeah, his post history tells a good story for those who don't know how things went down. Poor guy.

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Joshk
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Scallywag wrote:

This question has too many variables

There are no other variables, it’s hypothetical. I’m asking how much value do you place on rewarding the inventor.

Scallywag wrote:
If one is simply beyond my budget.

You hypothetically have the $50.

Scallywag wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
Mr Jax definitely got screwed over the lens fiasco, though.

Yeah, his post history tells a good story for those who don’t know how things went down. Poor guy.


Can I get a link please? I’m interested in reading about that.

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Joshk
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Ozythemandias wrote:
Where’s the “I don’t support unimaginative scumbags “ option?

That’s the last option.

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BurningPlayd0h
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Yokiamy wrote:
BurningPlayd0h wrote:
Quote:
You simply know that the original took more effort to Research and Develop.

How would I know that?

9 out of 10 times, the copy just doesn’t reach the level of the original, for instance Jaxman Z1 and Cometa, two complete different qualities.

Maybe other users can list more examples

I’ve seen counterfeit Rolexes that match that quality of genuine factory pieces for a fraction of the price. In visible attention to detail anyway.

I don’t think this logic always holds true for many industries and products, someone is always looking to improve upon an existing design.

Ozythemandias
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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
Quote:
You simply know that the original took more effort to Research and Develop.

How would I know that?

Are you asking how would you know it’s more difficult to invent or design something new than it is to copy something already in existence?

Anyway, you know it, because if it was easier to be innovative, they’d be doing that.

 

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Windows copied Apple
Facebook copied Orkut and Hot or Not
Samsung copied the iPhone
Android copied iOS
Telegram copied WhatsApp

This goes on and on.. Improvements are the key.

Scallywag
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Joshk wrote:
Can I get a link please? I’m interested in reading about that.

http://budgetlightforum.com/user/14827/my-posts
You’ll have to search for something relevant… I think in the past searching for “banggood” tells a good bit of the story.

I don’t think the $50 price range is super appropriate for this question. In my personal opinion, it’s pretty clear-cut what makes a $50 light worth $50 or not, and I don’t think most of the innovation happening around the $50 price range can really get much cheaper (see FW3A and D4v2). I think there are companies making $20 lights and selling them for $50, but in those cases there isn’t any innovation to my eyes, so I wouldn’t care about buying the “clone”. If Astrolux announced a D4v2 clone today at the $25 price point I wouldn’t buy it, because there’s no way it could measure up at that price point. Also, Emisar is awesome and Hank’s a cool dude.
If you ask this for $100, $200, $600 lights, you will get different answers from different people. Would I buy a “clone” HDS Rotary for $50? Well, I think I’d be tempted depending on who made it and how the reviews looked. Would I buy the MF04 for $139.99 over a BLF GT with whatever coupon I can scrounge up? That one is less likely, although the MF04 would lego with my MF02…
When you think about it, the BLF Q8 could be considered an SRK clone. But it’s also not, and I think that’s a worthy distinction.
Then we get to worry about concurrent development. It looks to me like the certain lights like the MF01 and D18 have some overlap, but how much can we say one is a clone of another?

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“At what point do you not buy the original?”…

If – and I say ‘if’ – I actually ‘knew’ it was a knockoff? – never… but that’s just me… I’ve made my living for decades from my intellectual property – so my personal perspective may be different… I try to walk the walk…

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