Emisar D1sV2 respectively Noctigon K1

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SKV89
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It’s a foggy night outside so I took my E07 SST-20 2700K and E07 XP-L HI 5000K outside for the test. I was surprised their reach is about the same. Though the XP-L HI was about double the brightness due to fresh batteries and brighter emitter. When using the 2700K, I get the impression that it penetrates fog better because I don’t see as much fog moving. With the 5000K, the moving fog is much more visible and it takes my eyes a few seconds to adapt to the glare to be able to focus in the distance whereas with the 2700K, I can pretty much see into the distance right away. But the amount of detail and the distance I can see seems identical with both lights to my surprise.

I think a 2000K flashlight might actually make more noticeable difference in fog.

Majoroverkill
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I think a 2000K flashlight might actually make more noticeable difference in fog.

Now that is something I would buy. I lived off the coast of Washington ST. called Anacortes. Its located on Fidalgo Island, in the Pacific Northwest. It is conveniently situated halfway between Seattle and Vancouver BC and is the destination point for the San Juan Islands and International ferry runs. The fog there would get so thick it was like something out of a movie. You could feel it in your lungs it was so thick. I would be very interested in a torch designed just for fog with maybe an adjustable tint if possible.

Doug S.

Igor
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Then you’d have to go with incan lights. LED produces one color of the spectrum (monochromatic), while incan emits all colors, making them better to pierce through smoke and fog.

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Igor wrote:
Then you’d have to go with incan lights. LED produces one color of the spectrum (monochromatic), while incan emits all colors, making them better to pierce through smoke and fog.

Uh, no.
Monochromatic means one wavelength… that’s what a Red LED does for example, at maybe 635nm.
Or a laser, for example 532nm for a green one…
But a white LED emits all visible wavelengths… in a different way than an incan bulb of course, or even the sun

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Thanks for the information!

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Flashlights are cheaper than therapy.

twisted raven
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He’s sorta right. The LED is very much just blue light. Only after it’s put under a yellow phosphor with a broad spectrum does it emit what looks like white light.

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I have taken photos from behind the beam as well as far off to the side. The beam shots proved to me that a more neutral white (and I do mean an absence of color) shows best. This is, of course, what works for me, in my settings and usages. I throw away any emitter under about 4750 and over 6000K.

(And I use the best cameras and lenses I can afford. The shots posted of the water tower are using about $7000 worth of camera and lens)

BurningPlayd0h
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DB Custom wrote:
The beam shots proved to me that a more neutral white (and I do mean an absence of color) shows best.

Do you mean shows best on target though? I still haven’t ever seen beamshot comparisons that show an equal amount of backscatter from different temps.

This isn’t a perfect apples-to-apples comparison but beam profile and output are pretty close:

Th558
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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
DB Custom wrote:
The beam shots proved to me that a more neutral white (and I do mean an absence of color) shows best.

Do you mean shows best on target though? I still haven’t ever seen beamshot comparisons that show an equal amount of backscatter from different temps.

This isn’t a perfect apples-to-apples comparison but beam profile and output are pretty close:



Wow! The 4000k made the leaves grow!
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adam7027
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ZozzV6 beamshots are becoming more reference-like Party

Anyway, I get also very disturbed of the backscatter of cooler white emitters. My limit is around 4800K – and then, it HAS to be high CRI, because with lower CRI, there is more ‘angry blue’ in the LED output, which will increase backscattering noticeably. This is why I raised word for the 4500K 90 CRI variant of XHP35 HI (and of course 2700K and 3500K XHP35 HI 90 CRI would be also very welcomed).

And if someone would happen to make an E21A 2000K 95CRI thrower with over 150k candela, I would buy it in the same microsecond Evil

BurningPlayd0h
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Th558 wrote:
Wow! The 4000k made the leaves grow!

Hahaha so much output it made the trees think it was summer!

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Any updates on the Noctigon K1? Something? Anything? I need my fix! I’m going to go play with my Astrolux mini lol lol. Big Smile

Doug S.

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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
Do you mean shows best on target though? I still haven’t ever seen beamshot comparisons that show an equal amount of backscatter from different temps.

This isn’t a perfect apples-to-apples comparison but beam profile and output are pretty close:


These beamshots are very good, but they were not taken the same day, so temperature and humidity could have been very different. To really compare backscatter, we would need beamshots taken within minutes of each other.
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Oh. Boy. This looks amazing.

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lightdecay wrote:
BurningPlayd0h wrote:
Do you mean shows best on target though? I still haven’t ever seen beamshot comparisons that show an equal amount of backscatter from different temps.

This isn’t a perfect apples-to-apples comparison but beam profile and output are pretty close:


These beamshots are very good, but they were not taken the same day, so temperature and humidity could have been very different. To really compare backscatter, we would need beamshots taken within minutes of each other.

Exactly, I would actually like those photos to be removed from this topic as putting them next to each other in this context might cause some strange opinions to form. I’m sure if pics were taken on the same day difference would not be as great.
BurningPlayd0h
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Taking them with a grain of salt and being aware conditions were not the same is better than having nothing at all to look at.

In lieu of anyone having back-to-back comparisons this is all we have, and in my experience it matches reality pretty well.

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The fact that blue light scatters in air more than yellow light isn’t conjecture. It is an actual, measurable property of light.

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EasyB wrote:
Raleigh scattering is for particles much smaller than the wavelength of the light and is stronger for shorter wavelengths. This is why the sky is blue; light scattering off air molecules.

But fog particles are several microns large, larger than the wavelength of light, and this scattering mechanism is called Mie scattering, which has little wavelength dependence. This is why clouds and fog look white and not blue.

We need some controlled experiments and photographs. I have seen photographs appearing to show both cases, cool light scattering more, and cool light scattering the same.

Quoted my message above for reference. If a light were shining in actually clear air with no particles in it then cool light will scatter more. But my guess is that there is usually a significant particle density in the air whether it be fog particles or dust. Even if it doesn’t look very hazy there are a lot of particles. Scattering off of these relatively large particles is probably going to be dominant, and this type of scattering is not wavelength dependent.

Below are some pictures I just took. On the left is a convoy S2+ with smooth reflector and 2mm^2 white flat. On the right is another S2+ with smooth reflector but with a warm dedomed XPL. I adjusted their powers so their beam intensities were equal. The second photo is just meant to show the color difference. I lowered the powers to arbitrary values for the second photo.

It was not foggy out, but in the beam you can easily see very small water particles floating around. It is a 5s exposure. I think the amount of scattered light looks the same. So, again, if the air is actually very very clear the cool light will scatter more, but with any particles in the air the light will scatter a lot more, and it will be the same for warm or cool light.


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Thanks for the explanation EasyB

DB Custom
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We have a lot of road construction in the area so there are always dust particles in the air, sometimes so much as to almost look like snow. Which beam tint cuts dirt best?

And I guess my high quality high resolution back to back GT pictures were a waste of my time. Another one of many reasons I seldom bother to log in anymore.

Ciao.

EasyB
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DB Custom wrote:
We have a lot of road construction in the area so there are always dust particles in the air, sometimes so much as to almost look like snow. Which beam tint cuts dirt best?

And I guess my high quality high resolution back to back GT pictures were a waste of my time. Another one of many reasons I seldom bother to log in anymore.

Ciao.

While your GT pictures were valuable to show the beam was not diminished too much, they were not directly addressing the issue being discussed which was how much the scattered light from the beam diminishes the users eyesight.

Regarding the best light for dirt: if the dirt is, for example, very red, a light with less red in it might scatter a bit less.

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The great thing about Hank’s lights is that the emitters are offered in a wide variety of color temperatures, so most anybody can get one that fits their preference!

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EasyB wrote:
Raleigh scattering is for particles much smaller than the wavelength of the light and is stronger for shorter wavelengths. This is why the sky is blue; light scattering off air molecules.

But fog particles are several microns large, larger than the wavelength of light, and this scattering mechanism is called Mie scattering, which has little wavelength dependence. This is why clouds and fog look white and not blue.

For Raleigh scattering to have any effect the particles involved would have to be no bigger than 40nm, but typical fog droplets are in the 10-15um range, so Raleigh scattering is not relevant and Mie scattering is. Atmospheric dust, however, ranges from about 1nm to 30um, so both Raleigh scattering and Mie scattering are valid models, though the Mie scattering will be a greater contributor.

That said, your eyes are your best tool to evaluate how a particular flashlight works for you. Cool

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Hank Wang wrote:
JordanZHP wrote:
Hank if you see this thread we would love an update on this project Smile

Yes, we are still working on it, here is the prototype photo, it’s not called D1SV2, it’s called Noctigon K1,
with fully regulated driver, it should reach 600+kcd with CSLNM1.TG LED, there will be green/red
beam version, as well as XP-L HI/HD LED with different color temperature.
!https://intl-outdoor.com/media/wysiwyg/K1/IMG_2912_1100px.jpg!

I wish you could offer the old style switch cover. The white, semi-translucent ones just aren’t as elegant in my opinion, we all remember them from the cheapest flashlights. Old D1/D1S had it right.
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DB Custom wrote:
Respectfully disagree about the tint difference, I have beam shots of two GT’s, one in warm white and one in cool white, illuminating a water tower in a light rain at 1.9 miles. The cool white is brighter and lights up the tower better in spite of the rain… and I had my wife shining the lights while I went closer to the tower for pictures of the illumination factor. With me 600 yds from the tower the cool white showed brighter and clearer and the pictures clearly showed it.

The primary reason we see a difference between warm and cool is that the warm emitters are lower powered, thus they illuminate fog or smoke less than a higher powered cool white beam. This is my take on the ~1000 lights I’ve built. YMMV

I think this is pretty valid, and that those are very useful beamshots. Your comparison with the GTs (which IIRC are even regulated drivers) shows a marked difference, and leaves two possible explanations that I can think of: the CW XHP35.HI is higher binned, because CW LEDs come in higher bins, or the CW penetrates the medium (air, water vapor, and other particles included) better.

Unless someone is dealing with a very homogenous medium that reflects and/or refracts specific wavelengths more than others, your best bet is probably to just get the LED with the highest surface brightness you can find.

People need to pick the LED they want. If you like neutral throwers better, that’s fine. If you think you see your target better with neutral or warm light on it, that’s fine. If you want a high CRI thrower, that’s fine too. Color rendition has value, and that value is different to different users and use cases. And the best part is Hank will install anything he reasonably can just because he’s that awesome.

I get why some of the discussion wasn’t interested in those particular beamshots Dale, as there’s a lot of discussion about the visible, through-air beam (the lightsaber!) being “worse” with CW lights. Though from the looks of it, that just got debunked as well.

As for my $0.02, there’s nothing quite like my Z1’s pencil-beam stretching across a local reservoir and getting to see that cool white lightsabre-effect visible out to hundreds of meters.

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I am glad that the forum finally using my beamshots Big Smile
It is hard to make same conditions through a year And I can’t repeat all flashlight photos one day. Mostly because it is a lot work but otherwise a lot of them borrowed or rebuilt since or sold.
But now I see it is worth the effort to have that collection. I am also late with photos but Soon I will add a lot of lights to the tables.

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Majoroverkill wrote:
Any updates on the Noctigon K1? Something? Anything? I need my fix! I’m going to go play with my Astrolux mini lol lol. Big Smile

Dimwitted

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