[Pre-Order/Shipping mid of June] Sofirn C01R - XP-E2 deep red AAA keychain flashlight

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Barkuti
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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

After all, I think we can agree to disagree. But maybe we only have two different perspectives how useful deep red light can be. Smile 

https://tenor.com/view/dictator-film-2012-andrew-astakhov-gif-5999963

 

Nice to see this progressing. Does someone remembers what I said around 3 weeks ago? Red emitters, due to their low Vf, could be driven harder without surpassing the driver's maximum rated power. Pretty sure the driver could be fitted with a 0.2Ω sense resistor (R20/R200), driving photo red emitters at ≈472.5mA. 

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In for 2 deep red

Higher CRI!

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mortuus wrote:
is it decided what color the body host will be or ? sorry if i missed this..

It's not decided yet. However, Sofirn told me they are unfortunately unable to offer the "wine red" body color most of us would have favored.

Their anodizing factory would probably spend too many efforts in realizing this color. Eventually, costs would become unreasonable, especially at a lot size this small. Sad With that said, we may go with Sofirn's standard red or black color they used for C01S or I could try to ask for a non-anodized body as C01S BLF edition. I'm not sure if the majority of us would like that. I'm reluctant running another poll at the moment since I just started a poll about the new UI (see OP). Another option would be to use Sofirn's new colors they will use for their LT1 lantern, e.g. dark green, desert tan or orange. Whatever the decision will be, it needs to be consistent for the entire batch as a small size batch with multiple color options will be unlikely to happen.

 

Barkuti wrote:

Nice to see this progressing. Does someone remembers what I said around 3 weeks ago? Red emitters, due to their low Vf, could be driven harder without surpassing the driver's maximum rated power. Pretty sure the driver could be fitted with a 0.2Ω sense resistor (R20/R200), driving photo red emitters at ≈472.5mA. 

 

Muchas gracias Barkuti. I will forward your suggestions and ask Sofirn's engineer to check how overdriving the LED will correlate with C01R's heat generation and runtime. From my experience they do put a lot of focus on longterm life expectancy of their LEDs, i.e. there might be some need for further argumentation.

“Everyone, deep in their hearts, is waiting for the end of the world to come.” (Haruki Murakami, 1Q84)

shirnask
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Standard Sofirn red sounds like the best choice

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I’d be happy with the standard red also

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&metoo

Since we’re talking about red emitters I think it is appropriate if the body also has some kind of red color.

You are a flashaholic if you are forced to come out of the closet, to make room for more flashlights.

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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

Barkuti wrote:
… Red emitters, due to their low Vf, could be driven harder without surpassing the driver's maximum rated power. Pretty sure the driver could be fitted with a 0.2Ω sense resistor (R20/R200), driving photo red emitters at ≈472.5mA. 

 

Muchas gracias Barkuti. I will forward your suggestions and ask Sofirn's engineer to check how overdriving the LED will correlate with C01R's heat generation and runtime. From my experience they do put a lot of focus on longterm life expectancy of their LEDs, i.e. there might be some need for further argumentation.

Swapping the sense resistor, or factory customizing the sense resistor for red emitters, isn't overdriving the LED.

As I said before, they could use 0.2Ω or 0.22Ω sense resistors for red emitters and obtain higher output. This driver modification results in more or less matching power output and battery drain figures versus standard white emitters, while boosting the flashlight output. It's a win win situation, the only potential drawback is the need for driver modification, if anything. 

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Dark green or desert tan anodization will be very wellcome, instead red or wine red, IMHO.

Even I prefer black instead red anodization.

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interested

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Some comparative figures:

 

Since the calculation is done for the standard red emitter, it is also fully valid for the photo/deep red one (its Vf may even be a little bit lower). 

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@ Barkuti: I will talk to Sofirn about the sense resistor tomorrow.

“Everyone, deep in their hearts, is waiting for the end of the world to come.” (Haruki Murakami, 1Q84)

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A comment on this old graph of mine: it was in the time that I still used a budget luxmeter (Tondaj) that especially gives largely deviated values for single colours so do not trust the absolute lumen values too much. The curve shapes, currents and voltages should be correct.

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As you can see in djozz's output graph, Lux-Perpetua, the raw lumens for the P3 bin red XP-E2 went up from ≈53 at 350mA to ≈75 at 472.5mA in the test station, which is quite substantial. A big difference which the photo red will also enjoy.

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Thank you Djozz + Barkuti. I will forward these valuable information to Sofirn and try to convince them taking extra care of the sense resistor. I have no idea how much effort they expect in modifying their C01S driver but with the obvious benefit of significant better output it should be worth it.

Do you guys think it's worth using 0.22Ω resistors for other C01S emitters, too? If it turns out to be general advantage for LEDs like SST-20 2.700K/4.000K 95CRI or LH351 2.700K 90CRI, it should be even easier to convince them.

“Everyone, deep in their hearts, is waiting for the end of the world to come.” (Haruki Murakami, 1Q84)

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djozz wrote:

A comment on this old graph of mine: it was in the time that I still used a budget luxmeter (Tondaj) that especially gives largely deviated values for single colours…

I see the problem, according to Cree datasheet the minimum luminous flux for a P3 bin red XP-E2 at 350mA/85°C is 73.9 lumens, while you measured just ≈53; (53 × 100) / 73.9 = ≈71.72% of actual output (pretty sure slightly bit larger difference actually since djozz's P3 red wasn't at 85°C).

Interesting, because if Sofirn gets his hands on P4 binned red XP-E2s, if they dare to bump the driver current for red emitters the raw emitter lumens for the red C01R will be 80.6 × (75 / 53) = ≈114. With regards to the photo red, the raw lumens figure will probably be ⅓ of that number for standard sensitivity humans. 

Sun, 11/03/2019 - 21:11

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Interested

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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

Do you guys think it's worth using 0.22Ω resistors for other C01S emitters, too? If it turns out to be general advantage for LEDs like SST-20 2.700K/4.000K 95CRI or LH351 2.700K 90CRI, it should be even easier to convince them.

0.22Ω ≠ 0.2Ω. Since sense voltage in the C01S driver is ≈350mA × 0.27Ω = ≈94.5mV, with an R22 current is raised to I = V / R = 94.5mV / 0.22Ω = 429.5̅4̅mA. With an R20 current is 472.5mA.

Concerning raising the current for all emitters, that is a different story because they have a higher Vf, this forces the driver to output more power, working harder and draining the battery harder and faster too.

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Okay, got it. Wink I will report about any news as soon as possible.

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Interested tn OD green or tan ano!

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In for one in Deep Red if the price lands around $11 as expected.

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For sure interested in 660nm

Red anodizing preferred, but not necessary

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np with the color, standard red body color works for me too..

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Barkuti wrote:

Swapping the sense resistor, or factory customizing the sense resistor for red emitters, isn't overdriving the LED.

As I said before, they could use 0.2Ω or 0.22Ω sense resistors for red emitters and obtain higher output. This driver modification results in more or less matching power output and battery drain figures versus standard white emitters, while boosting the flashlight output. It's a win win situation, the only potential drawback is the need for driver modification, if anything. 

 

@ Barkuti + Djozz: Sofirn's engineer says there is not enough space left on the C01S driver to use an R20 sense resistor. He also tested the XP-E2 deep red LED using the C01S driver.

 

His feedback is:

红光vf太低,红光低亮的时候,这个电压不足以支撑单片机工作了

the vf of red led is too low, when at low mode, the voltage is not high enough for the chip

 

What do you suggest Sofirn to do?

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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

Barkuti wrote:

Swapping the sense resistor, or factory customizing the sense resistor for red emitters, isn’t overdriving the LED.


As I said before, they could use 0.2Ω or 0.22Ω sense resistors for red emitters and obtain higher output. This driver modification results in more or less matching power output and battery drain figures versus standard white emitters, while boosting the flashlight output. It’s a win win situation, the only potential drawback is the need for driver modification, if anything. 



 


@ Barkuti + Djozz: Sofirn’s engineer says there is not enough space left on the C01S driver to use an R20 sense resistor. He also tested the XP-E2 deep red LED using the C01S driver.


 


His feedback is:


红光vf太低,红光低亮的时候,这个电压不足以支撑单片机工作了


the vf of red led is too low, when at low mode, the voltage is not high enough for the chip


 


What do you suggest Sofirn to do?


As I’m not an electronics person, the short answer is: I don’t know.

People like HarleyQuin, DEL, LoneOceans could maybe help designing a driver.
Btw, it sounds a bit surprising that a R20 resistor can not be added. Perhaps not with the current layout but with some shifting traces or switching positions I can imagine it can be done. In that case maybe Lexel is your partner, if he is willing to do that, if Sofirn can provide the current driver layout digitally, he is very handy with drawing lay-outs, and he is fast.

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Interested in 1x deep red Smile

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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

@ Barkuti + Djozz: Sofirn's engineer says there is not enough space left on the C01S driver to use an R20 sense resistor. He also tested the XP-E2 deep red LED using the C01S driver.

 

His feedback is:

红光vf太低,红光低亮的时候,这个电压不足以支撑单片机工作了

What do you suggest Sofirn to do?

If I put 红光vf太低,红光低亮的时候,这个电压不足以支撑单片机工作了 in Google Translator I can discern among a bit of nonsense Smile that the Vf of photo red emitter is too low for the driver to work properly.

So, it doesn't matters if they can't fit an R20 in the C01S driver (I bet I'd fit it Wink but of course they're speaking from a manufacturer's pragmatic viewpoint), as djozz points out the C01R needs a new driver. 

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djozz wrote:
As I'm not an electronics person, the short answer is: I don't know. People like HarleyQuin, DEL, LoneOceans could maybe help designing a driver. Btw, it sounds a bit surprising that a R20 resistor can not be added. Perhaps not with the current layout but with some shifting traces or switching positions I can imagine it can be done. In that case maybe Lexel is your partner, if he is willing to do that, if Sofirn can provide the current driver layout digitally, he is very handy with drawing lay-outs, and he is fast.

Barkuti wrote:
[...] So, it doesn't matters if they can't fit an R20 in the C01S driver (I bet I'd fit it Wink but of course they're speaking from a manufacturer's pragmatic viewpoint), as djozz points out the C01R needs a new driver. 

Thank you both. I asked for the driver schematics but I could imagine they don't want to distribute them around for reasons of nondisclosure. Anyway, I try my best to keep the link alive between BLF and Sofirn's engineering. I was told that Sofirn's engineer will find an alternative way to make the XP-E2 deep red work with the C01S driver. I don't have any details yet. Maybe they find an alternative way to modify the sense resistor. As far as I can understand their response Sofirn tries to avoid using an individual driver (design) for C01R as this would go in line with significant cost increases.

“Everyone, deep in their hearts, is waiting for the end of the world to come.” (Haruki Murakami, 1Q84)

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Lux-Perpetua wrote:

Thank you both. I asked for the driver schematics but I could imagine they don't want to distribute them around for reasons of nondisclosure. Anyway, I try my best to keep the link alive between BLF and Sofirn's engineering. I was told that Sofirn's engineer will find an alternative way to make the XP-E2 deep red work with the C01S driver. I don't have any details yet. Maybe they find an alternative way to modify the sense resistor. As far as I can understand their response Sofirn tries to avoid using an individual driver (design) for C01R as this would go in line with significant cost increases.

The C01S driver design is no big deal, many people here could even design one from scratch in little time…

As said before (based on Sofirn engineer's report) the C01S driver needs some modification to properly drive photo/deep red emitters. It is a bit surprising, imho, as alkalines will quickly drop below 1.5V under load (I doubt there is a problem with Ni-MH).

Concerning the problem with the sense resistor, it seems like a porky pie to me, smells like they're hesitating to make further driver modifications plus having to purchase a reel of sense resistors. But in light of the engineer's report, they will have to modify the driver for the C01R. So, I find little reason not to swap the sense resistor too. You can tell 'em this without beating around the bush. Wink 

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Ok, so THIS is the point where the C01R idea officially mutates from a simple “give us a small run with a different LED and a colored body” into “please rework an existing production template and build something special just for our small run – please?”

In layman’s terms, what exactly do we loose if they give us a red LED on a standard L/H C01 driver?

DIY LT1 battery wrap image. "PDF on Google Drive":https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IHIEOi1NXu868IYNCzIM7D2Ulpxchmww

Fresh Sanyo NCR18650GAs already wrapped "for sale HERE":http://budgetlightforum.com/node/69120 if you like.

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