Ultimate LED Bulbs - Ultra High CRI - The Honorable Quest

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djozz
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maukka wrote:

Those look neat! I suppose flicker is obvious when used with a typical voltage chopping dimmer?


I use it with an IKEA fixture that may be especially made for this led, so I’m not sure if it is a normal voltage dimmer. But the dimming is certainly not up to BLF-standards Glasses , not very smooth and at certain postions the cooler leds keep switching on and off (may I introduce “tint flicker” ? Party )
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Anyone tested this one (2200-4000K smart bulb):
https://www.ikea.com/ch/en/p/tradfri-led-bulb-e27-806-lumen-wireless-dim...

For some reason Ikea doesn’t state CRI for that particular model.

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djozz wrote:
Talking about the blue peak, Luminus has brought a new 3030 led on the market that has the cyan gap filled up (or even made into a cyan peak) so that high CCT's can be made with a lower blue peak. It is called Luminus "Salud".

Added in the draft new png table, in a kind of "promising chip" category.

Bob_McBob wrote:
Since there are so many measurements being posted, I just want to remind everyone you should allow LED bulbs to warm up for a while before testing because Duv tends to drop significantly.

You are right, we should build some recommandations for testing. Warming up is one, testing multiples bulbs (2/3) of the same spec (if the testers owns them of course, or can be offered them) and average the values could be another.

At any moment, if any of our dear testers wish to provide new measurements, I'd be glad to keep up to date and update our thread table, if needed.

Just took 30s to read the view of wavelightning take on CRI, and learned something about geography. According to them, in general the US way to describe CRI (Ra) is only based on R1-R8 values. But, the Chinese/European way to describe CRI is said to mostly involves the full R1-R14 scope. And sould be noted Re, with e for extended, but it might not always be the case. All our BLF testers posted here Ra values, so normally R1-R8, but do you think any your spectrometers softwares might misuse the term Ra and do a full Re computation instead?

maukka wrote:
Anyone tested this one (2200-4000K smart bulb): https://www.ikea.com/ch/en/p/tradfri-led-bulb-e27-806-lumen-wireless-dim... For some reason Ikea doesn't state CRI for that particular model.

I don't find this particular "304.084.70" 806lm version tested anywhere yet, but the 920lm version, according to this french website review, has its CRI varying between 85 @2700K & 82 @4000K. They advise the reader towards this other Tradfri kit instead, in regard to quality of light (92 in that case). But both published measurements lacks the interesting R9, R12 and Rf values.

Rise and Shine my precious...

maukka
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fneuf wrote:
According to them, in general the US way to describe CRI (Ra) is only based on R1-R8 values. But, the Chinese/European way to describe CRI is said to mostly involves the full R1-R14 scope. And sould be noted Re, with e for extended, but it might not always be the case. All our BLF testers posted here Ra values, so normally R1-R8, but do you think any your spectrometers softwares might misuse the term Ra and do a full Re computation instead?

At least my software tools (CT&A, ArgyllCMS spotread) use R1-R8 for Ra measurement, which is the CIE 13.3:1995 standard.

Here’s the data for the 950 lumen Ikea Trådfri model LED1546G12, which looks like has been discontinued. Not integrated nor warmed up for more than a couple minutes, just a quick test in front of the bulb.

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Trådfri's performance in the red is disappointing. Did you had opportunity to test LIFX's and HUE's products in the past?

 

New found constetant: Lumicrest Apturi2 PAR30, a 3000K bulb whose manufacturer tests claim CRI 98, R9 95, R12 86, Rf 95. Unfortunately, 36$ per bulb.

Rise and Shine my precious...

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My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

SKV89
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I tested the Ikea LEDARE 3000K 600 lumens GU10 after being warmed up for an hour and got:

CCT: 2994K
DUV: -0.0005
Ra (CRI): 93.1
R9: 58.8
R12: 84.6
Rf: 91
Rg: 99
Blue Peak: 0.43

At cold start, DUV rating is about 0.0011

It is one of the best LED GU10 lights I’ve seen but still wish it had a DUV of -0.002 to -0.004 to make perfect for me.

Strangely I don’t see the 3000K version on their website now and they only sell a 2700K version.

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BlueSwordM wrote:
Guys, I also found this: https://www.bulbs.com/product/LED11A19DOD27K95

Energy Star site shows only CRI 92/ R9 57

https://www.energystar.gov/productfinder/product/certified-light-bulbs/d...

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fneuf
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First : thanks to all our dear testers, in less than 3 days we have 35 candidates in this Quest. That is trouly outstanding!

 

So guys, discussing with Bocian & clemence (by alphabetical order) and with the cheerful help of maukka, qandeel and staticx57 we think we could assess the opportunity to push the initial idea of this topic a little further... by designing altogether what could be the "Ultimate LED Bulb".

  • This is not a commitment, yet, to make it happen,
  • This IS a commitment to think about it, and see if we can imagine something relevant (technically and financially)

But lets be optimistic right now. You know the drill, it would not the first time here some talents decide to gather their abilities thanks to BLF. And whatever, at the very least I guarantee we'll have fun discussing the matter and we'll learn a few things along the way. That never hurts.

 

So, the specs I'm currently "dreaming of" seeing coming to fruition:

  • 1 - Worldwide compatibility
    • E27/E26
    • 90-240V
    • 50-60Hz
  • 2 - LED
    • 100lm/w efficiency
    • Dimmable
    • At least an option to have Nichia's Optisolis onboard Smile Smile
      • But no ideologies, if some manufacturer can provide something better, we'd be glat to look at it
  • 3 - Light flux colorimetry :
    • ~1000lm
    • CRI Ra : 97+
    • CRI Re : 97+
    • R9 : 97+
    • R12 : 97+
    • Rf : 97+
    • Rg : 100+
    • Duv : -0.0003somethingish?
  • Target price : ?

Now, many questions:

  • To which extent can we push the colorimetry specs?
    • Like "is wanting at least 97 on most marks unfeasible dude?", or "could such ambition be a great drive/direction to do it?"
  • Which CCT(s) to target?
    • Could we offer a realistically "full" 2700-3000-4000-5000-6500 range?
    • Could we pick and tweak medium CCTs: like offer 3400K and 5500K (by mixing dies) to embrace the range without the added complexity of product multiplication?
  • Which price point to target?
    • To make it a reality at the very end, we have to offer something different/better than the current offering (see my first page table to get a hang of the current market) and appeal to real people
    • Which audience would buy it?
  • Can we do that on our own (meaning with our BLF talented artisans)? Do we need to seek manufacturers?
  • What techical bases to try/start on?
    • Should we go the COB way or go mPCB way?
  • Should we seek "design cleverness" and design the whole thing as "modular" (at least by design)?
    • with exchangeable base: put on your E26, your E27, your GU10, etc at will, all on the same head
    • with modular heads: one 400lm able, one 800lm able, etc (could a driver could even support such changes?)
    • or should we keep it simple? Like all we would intend to do at fist is a Proof Of Concept, KISS mantra style
  • Which competencies do we need?
    • Which member have those/could be willing to help?
  • What to learn/capitalize from previous GB / projects at BLF?
  • Have I already written too much?

That's all folks, I want to hear your take on all that Smile

Rise and Shine my precious...

djozz
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You need a manufacturer, I’m not sure if our usual flashlight manufacturer can make bulbs running on high voltage AC.

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KISS for sure. Especially on the first release. You don’t want your mistakes to multiply across offerings.
I think you will need a manufacturer, if for no other reason than to obtain safety certifications.

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Meanwhile, updated table.

Additions from SVK89, and some discover from Muller-Licht & Aldi (MeLiTec).

SKV89 wrote:
[...]

Once again thank you SVK89 for all those tests! Could you please add R12 measurements for your bulbs, those missing values prevent them to be correctly ordered by the "Qfactor" (greyed cases in the table).

Rise and Shine my precious...

SKV89
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These were tested a while ago. Some of these lights I don’t have anymore but I will try to measure them. In the future, I will include the R12 value.

Btw, you are missing the DUV in your spreadsheet for the GE 31892. For many people, the DUV is as important as the CRI.

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Guys, the idea of create the “Ultimate LED Bulb” with the highest currently possible light quality and good efficiency is great but also very complex. Doing this fully legally will be completely unprofitable. Fulfilling all the international requirements and legal restrictions will be impossible in reasonable budget. The cost of testing in certified laboratories (notified body) is enormous. For example to meet CE requirements and “sleep like a baby” (just for Europe) confirmed by a certified unit is about 3-5 thousands euros just for one product. Single small company can declare CE by itself, but need to fulfill all the require harmonized norms (find all of them, buy, study and confirm their fulfillment) for specified product. In this case need to pay only for EMI/RFI testing and basic spectrophotometric measurements. I don’t even want to think about the details of the US market requirements Facepalm

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From what I see, Hyperikons’ isn’t exactly “ultra high CRI”, but rather on the 9050 or “high CRI” weight class (which is why it is relatively much cheaper than the rest).

It’s safe to expect (in most cases) from what it says on the tin:

Ra 80+ => R9 0-20
Ra 90+ => R9 50-80
Ra 95+ => R9 70+

Check out my inventory

[WTS] 95 CRI COBs

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maukka wrote:
Anyone tested this one (2200-4000K smart bulb):
https://www.ikea.com/ch/en/p/tradfri-led-bulb-e27-806-lumen-wireless-dim...

For some reason Ikea doesn’t state CRI for that particular model.

Got a response from customer service. They say it’s CRI90. I’ll have to pick one up to test.

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Yeah, certifications processes does not welcome small new players. If we find a nice product defintion ourselves, and receive interest from a manufacturer it would be less of a problem still.

 

And if we keep this as "hobbyists", are we completely hand tied by that?

Starting from which point (I guess wich "sale" number) do we need to do it fully legally (answers could varyies country to country I guess)?

What is sought by those certifications? Be sure to have safe product connected to mains?

Would proceeding and offering to some members an officially uncertified product put builders/buyers in legal risk or as long as we keep low profile and have low numbers are we safe?

 

Meanwhile, I can announce that I'm pleased to have received some interests by a manufacturer to test their current products. And I'm currently organising some bulbs shipments to Maukka for tests. Let's cross fingers.

Rise and Shine my precious...

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Bocian wrote:
Guys, the idea of create the “Ultimate LED Bulb” with the highest currently possible light quality and good efficiency is great but also very complex. Doing this fully legally will be completely unprofitable. Fulfilling all the international requirements and legal restrictions will be impossible in reasonable budget. The cost of testing in certified laboratories (notified body) is enormous. For example to meet CE requirements and “sleep like a baby” (just for Europe) confirmed by a certified unit is about 3-5 thousands euros just for one product. Single small company can declare CE by itself, but need to fulfill all the require harmonized norms (find all of them, buy, study and confirm their fulfillment) for specified product. In this case need to pay only for EMI/RFI testing and basic spectrophotometric measurements. I don’t even want to think about the details of the US market requirements Facepalm

It’s not quite so hopeless, there are options.
A) Convince a manufacturer to work with us and foot the bill. (Hardest)
B) Create a DIY Project for an existing bulb. (there are no laws against modding)
C) Create a DIY Project by selling the bulb in two separate pieces. (So it can be called DIY)

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I was browsing info on SSC SunLike LED offering, when I stumbled upon the "sunlikelamp" website, that seem russian based, and their "configurable" bulbs:

  • E27/E14/GU10/GU5.3
  • Multiple reflectors/lens choices from 30° to 120°
  • 6 to 50W
  • 3200K / 4000K / 5000K / 5600K
  • They claim ultra high CRI for each CCT, measurement said to be performed by "lamptest.ru".
    • For instance @4000K it's Ra 99 / R9 97 / R12 98 / Rf 97...
    • So from the company name and those results I safely assume they are currently using thos SSC/Toshiba SunLike dies.

Just have a look:

Judging only by the look of it, I think it fits our "DIY uncertified product" category we were discussing earlier. And this "boutique" products seems really interesting.

Mail sent.

Rise and Shine my precious...

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We can stop the development then Facepalm

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No need to be sad djozz, you know what they says: it is not the journey that is important, but the destination... Wait, do I have it reverse? laughinglaughinglaughing

 

Anyway, I had a great chat with Adam, the man behind the "SunLikeLamp" russian boutique and he would be okay to send us a bulb for review. Calling out @maukka on that one: are you in to test?

Rise and Shine my precious...

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Can you share some specs and price? I can’t read or translate their russian images on the website. But it seems $22 gets you a ultra high CRI bulb?

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There's an english version of the website if you hit the little UK flag on the top rightish.

 

Quick sum up:

  • a range from 6 to 50W, from 19$ to 100$
  • choices between SSC's SAWS0661A (more efficient and a bit more lumen) and SOL1306SXX (a bit better CRI) dies
  • you can also refer my previous posts for a bit more detailled specs

And yes, with 19$ you get what I expect to be an ultra high CRI 6W bulb, and what I really look forward to see tested here. For 21$ a 10W, 29$ a 12W, and so on up to 50W.

 

Rise and Shine my precious...

SunLike
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from 16$ for 6w model w/o shipping Silly
Also I am going to start SunLike∞ model for 11€ for 8 real watts, because I think that use ordinary “fake white” LEDs it is a crime.
Also I am going to start manufacturing head flashlight with sunlike led (12w). There some enginering tasks, for example 35v on the LED.
Excuse me for english version of my web-site. I am alone for all types of jobs.
About my lampman’s craft here – use translator








some photos of my crazy projects you can find here

BelMORDOR’s Ламповщик|Lampman

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Welcome to BLF, SunLike! I hope you have a nice time here Smile

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Welcome SunLike! I skimmed your YT video and I think you are going to like it here Smile

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Those spectra look like they have both blue and violet emitters in them, combined with top of the line phosphors. R9 and R12 are both superb.

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SunLike wrote:
from 16$ for 6w model w/o shipping Silly Also I am going to start SunLike∞ [...]

Welcome here Adam!

iamlucky13 wrote:
Those spectra look like they have both blue and violet emitters in them, combined with top of the line phosphors. R9 and R12 are both superb.

Seoul Semiconductor/Toshiba's SunLike range is clearly top of the class colorimetry wise, very close to Optisolis levels results I saw in the past. SOL3000K and SOL4000K are veeeery appealing.

Rise and Shine my precious...

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fneuf wrote:

Seoul Semiconductor/Toshiba’s SunLike range is clearly top of the class colorimetry wise, very close to Optisolis levels results I saw in the past. SOL3000K and SOL4000K are veeeery appealing.

I did a “BLF-type” test on one of the SunLikes here: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/66275

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