Question about PD USB-c EDC LED C-To-C HELP

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Prplxt
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Question about PD USB-c EDC LED C-To-C HELP

So, new here and tried to search but was too noob to find anything on my question so here goes…

Does anyone know if something like this exists:

A) size of a Thrunite Neutron 2c v3 or smaller – so single 18650 max
B) USB-c charging – must support c-to-c Charging from a PD charger though.

Some context for the question: I’ve found larger solutions like the Fenix PD36R but it’s too big for my use and I’ve found the Werkkos FC11 which is the perfect size and even has USB-c but like so many early USB-c lights they only charge if the cable is an A-to-C cable (and thus a USB-A power port). I only use C ports in PD chargers these days.

Greatly appreciate any insight from the light gurus here.

Edited by: Prplxt on 01/11/2020 - 18:55
gchart
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Well, if that ain’t the darnedest thing… I just tried plugging my FC11 into a USB-PD charger. To my surprise, it didn’t work! I had tried it successfully with an A to C cable, I figured it would work with all C cables/chargers. Sad

Prplxt
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Downright tragic. I’ve simply switched the whole operation over to PD chargers and need a light to comply with my Tactical Environment :).

Valynor
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For USB-C PD to work you need the proper charger, a certified cable (with an electronic chip in the plug) and of course the target device has to understand the charging protocol as well. 

It will take a while until we see this in the wild frequently ...

gchart
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I think it’s that last point that the struggles are happening with. As in the case of my FC11, I hooked it up to a USB-PD charger that I use for my Pixel (known working good charger and cable) and it doesn’t charge. Must not understand the protocol.

Hmm, I wonder if this has to do with identifying resistors (I barely know if that I speak here). I’ll have to take a closer look at the charging setup when I crack open my FC11.

Phlogiston
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Yes, it’s because the lights in question don’t have the appropriate identifying resistors to activate a USB-C charger.

Here’s lumiere’s description from the LT1 thread:

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1577185#comment-1577185

Here’s a thread amishbill started with more lights that aren’t USB-C to USB-C compatible:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/69740

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I’ve only got a powerbrick (not charger) that came with its own c-to-c cable, and no-go on the DC7 or FC11, either.

Using an a-to-c cable worked.

Don’t imagine many/any lights as yet “do it right”.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

Prplxt
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True that many lights do it wrong apparently but it’s not a cost issue.

I bought this tragic box of photons as a cheap glove box light for emergencies: Tragic Box of Photons

It’s 20 bucks and not very bright or very throwy or compact, but it charges perfectly and fast from the six different PD wall chargers and two different 12vdc PD car chargers I own, and it was 20 bucks!

Now you may be saying Ok OP... THEN why are you asking for what you already have?? Good question... because I want the same USB-c charging in a light that does not suck.

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Aaaah early adopters! Big Smile

Prplxt looks like most of your lights with USB-C input port do not support USB Power Delivery. I wonder what is wrong with the standard, they should be able to negotiate their basic power requirements. I've not read about the matter in depth, but looks like devices designed for USB-A to USB-C cables usually only speak the “old languaje” of jumper/resistors over the standard (D-, D+) data lines (Battery Charging Specification 1.2, Apple 0.5/1.0/2.1/2.4A, etc.). Since a protocol negotiation chip inside de device is needed for USB Power Delivery, along with cables with chips too (WTF?), this all involves more hardware money which, for a flashlight or other low power devices, increases cost unnecessarily. It also remembers me of the “stick a chip in everything” Apple way, and while I will refrain to be unnecessarily judgmental with it, one thing I will say to those people is “may you stick all those unnecessary chips up your buttholes, thanks”.

I love simple, KISS stuff.

 

https://jimflanigan.com/2018/11/16/flip-the-switch/

Sun, 01/12/2020 - 10:43

The Light Innocent I am

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Only USB-C to C cables support PD, since USB A is just 4 wires and do not negotiate about the Power Delivery due to the lack of the communication lines in the physical USB-A connection (USB-A has +, GND Tx and RX where USB-C has 12 wires)

There are some lights nowadays which porperly support PD, such as Magicshine MTL/MOD (combined with the MAS-C1) and the Convoy 4×18

Unfortunately there are a lot of lights which don’t support proper USB-C such as the BLF LT, Sofirn SP36, Noctigon K1, etc, etc….

Prplxt
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Respectfully. Not really, Barkuti. You did not follow the link or fully digest my last post. Follow this link:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WV7DQ4P/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_8wRgEbVPEBRQ7

You’ll find a flashlight cheaper than anything on this board.

It’s not high-dollar.  It’s not well made. It’s low output.  But they added the two 5.1 kohm resistors required to be in compliance and make any cable that fits deliver power to the unit.

It’s not about chips or money or resources.  It’s about doing it right. Some manufactures are doing it right but many are not.

For any manufactures reading this post who choose to use a USB-C port please add the two 5.1K Ohm resistors between cc1 and cc2 and ground to enable charging from any usb-c cable.

I may be wrong but I think it’s that simple and again I mean no disrespect.

More detail cribbed from other threads:

Quote:
The USB-C spec requires that if a USB-C device is a pure power sink, it must use the correct configuration of Rd pulldown resistors in order to signal to power supplies (power adapters, chargers, your laptop's USB-C) that they must start providing 5V power. Some bad implementations (including the Raspberry Pi 4), don't populate the Rd resistors, or put them in the wrong circuit configuration, so they fail to signal to the power source to start providing power.

From what I've read the solution is to "Connect two pulldown resistors (Rd) with nominal value 5.1kOhm to CC1 and CC2" inside the LT1 (power sink).

In other words people are just making mistakes.

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Thanks Prplxt, understood. Above I said “what is wrong with the standard” but as you say what is wrong is sloppy implementations.

This remembers me of a friend of mine with his OnePlus 3T, it can charge fast with its Dash Charge (VOOC) patented crap but refuses to work with the Qualcomm Quick Charge chargers and power banks despite using an Snapdragon 821 SoC. So, he cannot quick charge with the ubiquitous Quick Charge power banks. You buy propietary sheesh? Pay big or get screwed. Not my cup of tea. 

The Light Innocent I am

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“Your device must have two 5.1k pull-downs on both CC pins of your connector. Without these resistors the Type-C port won’t deliver any power”

Prplxt
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tantien11 wrote:
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/327791/using-usb-c-as-a-...

This is a GREAT resource, thanks!

Prplxt
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Yokiamy, I took a look at the magicshine mtl/mod + mas-c1 and they look very cool and with the mas-c1 component seems to support the entire usb-c use case including using as a power supply which is cool for some, but a too much of a money and size cost for me.

It made me realize we need to define a useful level of usb-c support. It seems to there are three levels:

1: TYPE-C CHARGING FROM USB-A

Benefits: stronger plug. Omni directional plugging. Cheap to implement.

Deficits: requires special a-to-c cable and only works from usb-a chargers. No outbound power. Dubious actual benefits over micro-usb.

2: TYPE-C UNIVERSAL CHARGING

Benefits: All of 1 (including Cheap to implement) and supports all new PD c-to-c chargers and all a and c cables

Deficits: No outbound power.

3: FULL USB-C SUPPORT

Benefits; All of 1 and 2 (except “cheap to implement”) and add outbound power.

Deficits: expensive and bulky.

 

The Magicshine mod 20 (with mas-c1) light remarkably jumps to 3. The flashlight industry is currently (largely) at 1.

We need more 2. The reasons being... It’s not expensive or bulky. It allows all PD and future type-c chargers and power banks, charging off your phone or laptop, to work all without the cost or bulk of 3. 3 is cool but edc lights don’t generally have much power to spare in the “3” case anyway.

 

 

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Prplxt wrote:

Yokiamy, I took a look at the magicshine mtl/mod + mas-c1 and they look very cool and with the mas-c1 component seems to support the entire usb-c use case including using as a power supply which is cool for some, but a too much of a money and size cost for me.


It made me realize we need to define a useful level of usb-c support. It seems to there are three levels:


1: TYPE-C CHARGING FROM USB-A


Benefits: stronger plug. Omni directional plugging. Cheap to implement.


Deficits: requires special a-to-c cable and only works from usb-a chargers. No outbound power. Dubious actual benefits over micro-usb.


2: TYPE-C UNIVERSAL CHARGING


Benefits: All of 1 (including Cheap to implement) and supports all new PD c-to-c chargers and all a and c cables


Deficits: No outbound power.


3: FULL USB-C SUPPORT


Benefits; All of 1 and 2 (except “cheap to implement”) and add outbound power.


Deficits: expensive and bulky.


 


The Magicshine mod 20 (with mas-c1) light remarkably jumps to 3. The flashlight industry is currently (largely) at 1.


We need more 2. The reasons being… It’s not expensive or bulky. It allows all PD and future type-c chargers and power banks, charging off your phone or laptop, to work all without the cost or bulk of 3. 3 is cool but edc lights don’t generally have much power to spare in the “3” case anyway.


 


 


There’s intermediate step between 2 and 3, which is bidirectionality without full protocol support.
Folomov does it (though with Micro USB). It is not bulky and can’t be very expensive.

And type 1 shall be eradicated. There’s no real reason to use it and it will become increasingly problematic over time.
I don’t have a problem with the lights that used it in the past but now that the community knows about the topic we shall spread the knowledge to manufacturers.

Prplxt
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Fair enough.  My only point is that we need ‘2’ and if we we get ‘2+‘ or ‘3’ great but we HAVE to move past ‘1’!

 

...and speaking of manufactures.  Part of this post is to clarify to them what is needed.  If I was a manufacturer reading these posts I’d get scared thinking the community is asking for “3” which requires more risk and more expense. But we are not really. My point to the manufactures is simple.  Add the drop-down resistors correctly for now... get the PD chargers working fast with little fuss and punt the headache of “3” for later.

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Exactly, just let them implement the 2 pull down resistors, costs are negligible and saves many people headache

Prplxt
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Anyone know if the Fenix PD36R can charge outbound?