Tesla's "Secret" Battery

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djozz
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The surface area needed to even generate all the earth’s electricity is surprisingly limited so the entire countryside needs not plastered with solar panels at all. But to choose the nicest spots for solar panels sounds like a bad idea, people have created enough ugly places for that.

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Hikelite wrote:
Considering that even housing in certain areas lack any nature around I can understand why the majority living in large concrete or no nature cities are in favor of just plastering the country side with solar panels.

When they’re gasping for air because O2 production starts declining, maybe they’ll think otherwise.

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Sirstinky wrote:
Well, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… electric is the future. Any time I ride in an electric car I’m reminded that internal combustion, while definitely relevant (easy and cheap) and practical, will not be the focus of great innovation in the long term. We have the motive power with brushless motors that have gotten smaller, lighter and simpler to make and virtually maintenance free, speed controllers and such, but the thing lacking is the batteries/storage capacity. We still need a huge, expensive, heavy battery with lots of cells to move an electric car and maintain the same practicality of a internal combustion engine vehicle. In the end, a $60,000+ Tesla 3 still can’t compete with the practicality and range of a $15,000 sedan. Maybe the new batteries will help bridge the gap?
Well said. Tesla Model X looks great, but it’s a joke for reliability—too many manufacturing issues are the cause. One gripe I have with Tesla—TOO MUCH TOUCH SCREEN RELIANCE! You need tactile controls. Electric cars ARE making progress, though. VW/Audi will be featuring some in the next few years.

My 2007 Audi A3 has been a phenomenally reliable car, with tons of torque, sports car handling, & good looks. Just mediocre gas mileage. I’ve decided to continue with it, instead of going to yet another internal combustion engine vehicle. I will hang onto it a bit longer then go electric and very much looking forward to it. I’ll miss my loyal steed, the A3… but will have fond memories.

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Rooftops are the best place for solar panels— look at Hawaii. They have given proper credit for individuals to install them (and MOST have), so no new power plants needed. The “grid” is charged by thousands of independant roof-top installs in any given town around Maui where my friend lives (the last 30 years). It works and no nature impact as the roofs are already there and look as good with panels as with out.

Putting solar on a rooftop increases R factor in hot places like Kansas too (where I am one of 750 grid tied installs out of 450,000 customers, sadly). It makes sense in so many ways and there are no transmission losses when we power MOST of our own home’s needs in summer from 50 ft away (when the sun is shining of course). We also chose an East/West array for our PV system to better “fit” the needs of the grid WHEN we are producing electricity (with 1/2 our production coming from the west array to off-set “peak demand” times for AC use- the #1 use of electricity in summer here).

But Wall Street HATES solar when it cut’s into coal and nuke plant profits and so most power companies the last decade have fought to screw us on the credits. Kansas finally got a decent governor who stopped our dumb*** electric company from charging “demand” charges (and other penalty actions they tried to use) against we FEW solar users. But damage is done sadly, and little solar is happening around these parts.

So for the most part, the big energy companies DID effectively shut down solar here in the Midwest. They’ll take their energy credits (and they do get MANY millions a year) to build thousands of windmills and charge customers a premium for “wind energy”. Meanwhile, my PV system has been in service four years this August and it’s paid about 1/2 of its cost to date (after tax credits were figured in). With a 10 year warranty on my inverters and 25 years on the panels, we hope to break even in the next 3-4 years then it’s all gravy money wise (*until we upgrade gear— but the panels have a great lifespan and inverter cost isn’t much compared to the initial install cost so I think we’re good for the long-term).

If 100k roof tops in our market were online today (as was the plan 10 years back), we really would be making a positive impact. But it always goes back to the problem of scale and if you don’t hit a tipping point, you aren’t doing a LOT of good— but at least we are doing a “little” good Innocent

And, I OF COURSE am waiting for Tesla (and co.) to get batteries cheap enough to build a power-wall. Today, with my soldering iron, ranch engineering skills, and available building to house batteries… going off grid would STILL cost me about $12k (or more if I want MORE than 3-4 days of back-up for dark, stormy times). I’d have to update my inverters, buy batteries AND add 10 more panels (in a south array). My largest electric bill is December as I have no panels facing south, so to go year-round I’d have to spend about what I did on my initial install (approx $15k, and all DYI here so I didn’t pay a contractor the extra $6-8K for a typical system my size at 8500kw).

But if we get to $1 Panny Bs, I probably would upgrade and install DIY batteries and new “hybrid” inverters as I’d save another $600 – $800k a year off the electric bill. But needing about 5000 batteries, at $2 each today… it’s not worth doing (yet).

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Quote:
…CATL also has developed a simpler and less expensive way of packaging battery cells, called cell-to-pack, that eliminates the middle step of bundling cells.

Anyone have an idea of how “cell to pack” packaging of cells differs from “bundling cells” ?

djozz
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Nice example of the impacts and costs of getting solar, Zappaman, that is very insightful.

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Zappaman wrote:
But Wall Street HATES solar when it cut’s into coal and nuke plant profits and so most power companies the last decade have fought to screw us on the credits. Kansas finally got a decent governor who stopped our dumb*** electric company from charging “demand” charges (and other penalty actions they tried to use) against we FEW solar users. But damage is done sadly, and little solar is happening around these parts.

So for the most part, the big energy companies DID effectively shut down solar here in the Midwest. They’ll take their energy credits (and they do get MANY millions a year) to build thousands of windmills and charge customers a premium for “wind energy”.

That’s one of the biggest problems with trying to “go green”. Too many of those who’d “lose out” start stuffing their hands down your pockets like some playground perv.

Electric companies started penalising those who’d want to go solar, claiming that they’re not paying for “infrastructure” by reducing their demand on the grid. Eliminating net-metering for those who produce an excess also penalises those who have bigger better setups (on their own dime).

Want to “go green” with an electric car? Be prepared to pay fees and surcharges to “pay your fair share” because you’re ostensibly skirting gasoline taxes.

What better way to keep people off solar power, and not buy EVs, than to punish them financially for doing so.

Was gonna point out

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/more-states-hitting-electric...

as an example, but just goggle

https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+surcharge

for more examples.

And Solar Power World magazine has pretty good articles discussing incentives/disincentives like credits/rebates, net-metering fights in various states, etc.

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Zappaman
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djozz wrote:
Nice example of the impacts and costs of getting solar, Zappaman, that is very insightful.

You are welcome djozz… I should mention I have gain MUCH insight from your many posts over the years also!

And Lightbringer confirms things well here too (as always, but hey?… no funny video this time?) Silly

Going solar here raised many (farmers’) eyebrows as I’m an anomaly coming from ranching, to high-tech, then back to rural— to the heart of the Midwest. I’ve had no less that a dozen farmers “stop by” to ask about the “solar system” and I always think to myself… “what would Carl Sagan say?”

I’m pretty sure they think I’m kinda’ “off” but they do stay interested and a FEW keep asking me every now and then if I’m still, “screwing the power company?” Good guys really… just not interested in it much beyond basic curiosity (*AND, they’ll not go solar, but drop $600k on a new combine in a heartbeat). As long as farm diesel exist… there isn’t a problem to them anyway Wink

ZappaMan

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Zappaman wrote:
And Lightbringer confirms things well here too (as always, but hey?… no funny video this time?) Silly

Okay, okay…

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Batteries used by another car manufacturer:

Seems like the top cells on the market (as of a few years ago) were these 26700s.

“price is roughly 100 times higher” . Assuming 3.7V nominal voltage, 4.5kWh, 384 cells = 3167mAh per cell. Power output is 525kW meaning the discharge rate per cell looks to be about 370 Amps if my calculations are right.

Even if those cells aren’t at a nominal voltage, you’d need a whole order of magnitude’s difference to get to a “reasonable” to us amperage discharge rate.
Crazy

Zappaman
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Lightbringer wrote:
Zappaman wrote:
And Lightbringer confirms things well here too (as always, but hey?… no funny video this time?) Silly

Okay, okay…

Wow… I had no idea lizards farted Silly

Maybe if we get enough in one sealed hydroelectric turbine… they could act as capacitors or something??? (ok, enough scotch for tonight maybe)

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Oh yeah, absolutely.

 

q: Whut’s invisible and smells like mice?

a: Snake-farts.

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Lightbringer wrote:
Hikelite wrote:
Considering that even housing in certain areas lack any nature around I can understand why the majority living in large concrete or no nature cities are in favor of just plastering the country side with solar panels.

When they’re gasping for air because O2 production starts declining, maybe they’ll think otherwise.

Without attempting to be cynical, I do not think the majority of people have any interest in trees or forests or proprieties with trees, at least that is my experience when talking with people that have land propriety, apartments, businesses, etc.
There are unfortunately people that think deforestation of old forests is reversible by just plating trees, that in itself is flawed on a couple of levels, but I am not going into that matter.

Unfortunately I do not have pictures of most of the places I have seen, I know today if you do not have photos or videos it does not exist, but there still are examples of what I am saying with deforestation for making room for solar panels, except very little photos online, especially since does not stand well with the “green energy” label.

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Ewww. Those look like big scabs on the earth’s “skin”.

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Interesting article on Engadget yesterday.

Dyson finally unveils its canceled electric car

Of note (to me, anyway) was the bit at the end about how you need “a fleet of profitable gasoline cars and diesel cars to offset the ‘huge losses’ on every electric vehicle made.”

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riffraff wrote:
Interesting article on Engadget yesterday.

Dyson finally unveils its canceled electric car

Of note (to me, anyway) was the bit at the end about how you need “a fleet of profitable gasoline cars and diesel cars to offset the ‘huge losses’ on every electric vehicle made.”

That’s true. The logistics and re tooling needed to build electric powertrains and the infrastructure are significant. This is why the major automakers still make gasoline amd diesel vehicles. Demand is still too low. Americans in particular won’t be willing to give up their Honda Civic that gets 400 mi to a $35 tank of gas effortlessly and runs for 180k miles. Or their Ford Superduty that hauls their toys. Tesla has a big corner of a small market. That’s what’s keeping them in business. As soon as Ford or GM or FCA develops, markets and mass produces an affordable electric car that matches Tesla’s cars for cheaper then that will change the game. But that’s years, maybe a decade off. I think the biggest innovation to electric vehicles is in electric motorcycles like the Harlwy Davidson Live Wire, but it’s around $30,000 still.

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Sirstinky wrote:
… As soon as Ford or GM or FCA develops, markets and mass produces an affordable electric car that matches Tesla’s cars for cheaper then that will change the game. But that’s years, maybe a decade off.

That’s what i was thinking, and that doesn’t even include any sort of charging network to make long distance trips, just the basic commuter car.

People feel like they must have an unlimited travel range, but what’s the reality of how far they actually drive every day, starting and ending at home? 40 miles, 50, 60?

Favorite Song = "Flashlight" (BLF of course, with a righteous bass)
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Case in point. I have 2 cars. I drive about 20 miles per day average, my wife drives the other more. That would work with an EV, but I need 2. Now say I want to take off for the weekend or for several days into the boonies, I might drive over 100, maybe 200 miles. I drove over 200 miles one way last summer to SE Oregon with my Subaru wagon fully loaded with camping gear and my two kayaks on top. This was driving up steep hills (over Santiam Pass, up the Cascade foothills). Could a Tesla do that? I doubt it. Putting any kind of extended load on battery drains it fast (anyone who owns a high power flashlight kknows this).
If it could, how would I recharge it in the woods? An RV hookup maybe? What if one’s not available? So you see the conundrum of owning an EV. For a family, it almost means owning 2 or maybe 3 vehicles…a EV (or two) for around town, or a getaway vehicle with a gas or diesel engine for longer trips. That’s pretty expensive since you need to register, insure, store/park, maintain, etc. I think some folks would do really well with an EV. I know it wouldn’t work for me (at least now).

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Sirstinky wrote:
Case in point. I have 2 cars. I drive about 20 miles per day average, my wife drives the other more. That would work with an EV, but I need 2. Now say I want to take off for the weekend or for several days into the boonies, I might drive over 100, maybe 200 miles. I drove over 200 miles one way last summer to SE Oregon with my Subaru wagon fully loaded with camping gear and my two kayaks on top. This was driving up steep hills (over Santiam Pass, up the Cascade foothills). Could a Tesla do that? I doubt it. Putting any kind of extended load on battery drains it fast (anyone who owns a high power flashlight kknows this). If it could, how would I recharge it in the woods? An RV hookup maybe? What if one’s not available? So you see the conundrum of owning an EV. For a family, it almost means owning 2 or maybe 3 vehicles…a EV (or two) for around town, or a getaway vehicle with a gas or diesel engine for longer trips. That’s pretty expensive since you need to register, insure, store/park, maintain, etc. I think some folks would do really well with an EV. I know it wouldn’t work for me (at least now).

With a Tesla with extended range battery you may well be able to but you need to plan ahead to “top off” your charge before heading up hill. Tesla does have route planning apps/maps. A stop at the Woodburn outlet or down to Eugene before heading up Santiam should get you up and over the cascades. On long down hill runs your regenerative braking will help top off the battery. Silly Not the most ideal but will work.

I went with a friend in their Tesla through the north Cascades highway, and you do get range anxiety when battery goes down. Even if the trip planner says you can make it. We took longer routes just to hit the superchargers. Think of it as an “extended” road trip. Also even without superchargers, many places do have AC power to connect and charge. Much slower than supercharging. Out in the boonies, you will be out of luck short of bringing a power generator and gas. Smile LOL.

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Depending upon if these weekend trips occur every weekend (52x a year) or a some lesser frequency, it might work out to just rent a suitable recreational vehicle, such as a van for trips to the beach, a jeep or suv for mountain trips, a large luxury diesel for cross country cruising, etc. You can even rent a truck at home depot for hauling stuff for home projects. Compared to the convenience, selection and ownership cost, an occasional rental is a good deal.

Tesla is a nice car but too rich for me, i’m driving a Mitsubishi iMiEV and my daughter drives a Nissan Leaf, lots of value left in used EVs (BLF forum after all). i use a 40V lithium pack for the lawn mower, weed eater, leaf blower, chainsaw. Don’t really miss the mess and smell of watered-down alcohol-diluted gasoline gumming up carburetors.

i’d love to get a solar roof, but the first thing BoneSpurs did when he got into office was put a 25% tariff on solar panels, then went to sword dance with the saudis.

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xevious wrote:
One gripe I have with Tesla—TOO MUCH TOUCH SCREEN RELIANCE! You need tactile controls.

This x100. When I worked at a Toyota dealership I HATED driving Prius Primes for this reason. You can’t set your cabin temp, fans, etc. without looking over at the center touchscreen. With physical controls you can do it solely by touch.

Not just annoying, but downright dangerous because stupid people will look at it while driving. OTOH, the fact that more controls like audio, bluetooth, etc. have buttons right on the steering wheel is probably my favorite feature that most newer cars have.

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People do this all the time, rent trucks, cars, motorhomes, boats, jet skis, etc. It gets expensive though long-term. A guy I know has a Leaf (1st gen I think from 2012?). It goes realistically 65-75 miles before needing charged. The regen brakes are nice though when we drive up a mountain with steep hills going back down. The battery will be 39% at the top (hills kill the range), but back to like 50% at the bottom. Downside is it gets cold in there in the winter since the heater is used for mostly defrosting the windows. It eats the battery quite a bit!

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Since few separate Tesla Motors from Elon Musk, let me start with stating I don’t agree with everything he says, but he knows how to build a killer car company.

I’ve owned a Model 3 from Tesla Motors for about a year and half, and it is the best engineered and best driving car I have ever owned, by FAR.

A Home Depot employee asked me last week “how long it takes to charge that”. The correct answer would have been, how long did our phones take to charge last night? Hell if we know, we just plug them in. At home.

As far as people’s fears the grid can’t handle them, you should know that you can set how fast they pull power. If you want it to sip power at 5 amps, no problem.

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Joshk wrote:
Since few separate Tesla Motors from Elon Musk, let me start with stating I don’t agree with everything he says, but he knows how to build a killer car company.

I’ve owned a Model 3 from Tesla Motors for about a year and half, and it is the best engineered and best driving car I have ever owned, by FAR.

A Home Depot employee asked me last week “how long it takes to charge that”. The correct answer would have been, how long did our phones take to charge last night? Hell if we know, we just plug them in. At home.

As far as people’s fears the grid can’t handle them, you should know that you can set how fast they pull power. If you want it to sip power at 5 amps, no problem.

How many miles in a year and a half?

Until a vehicle has shown me it’s maintenance needs for 60,000 miles it means nothing.
Then the true cost of ownership becomes clear.
When they hit 150,000 it separates the men from the boys.
Yes, I pound the miles.

“History doesn’t repeat itself, but it sometimes rhymes,” Mark Twain

..
Well I don’t know if I’m coming or going
If it’s them or me
Oh, but one things for certain
Willie Nelson only smokes the killer weed

After the Apocalypse there will be only 2 things left alive, Cockroaches and Keith Richards

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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
xevious wrote:
One gripe I have with Tesla—TOO MUCH TOUCH SCREEN RELIANCE! You need tactile controls.

This x100. When I worked at a Toyota dealership I HATED driving Prius Primes for this reason. You can’t set your cabin temp, fans, etc. without looking over at the center touchscreen. With physical controls you can do it solely by touch.

Not just annoying, but downright dangerous because stupid people will look at it while driving. OTOH, the fact that more controls like audio, bluetooth, etc. have buttons right on the steering wheel is probably my favorite feature that most newer cars have.

I didn’t know that this was a similar problem with the Prius. Thanks for letting me know. Hopefully Toyota & Tesla have done some focus group testing & learned about this usability flaw. Electronically mapped physical controls would be possible.

BTW, Elon Musk launched a huge cooperative to have many locations around the country install charging stations. It’s a very long way to go for a comprehensive coverage, but then so was PAVED ROADS! That took a long, long while. Many people tried to stick with horses. People forget…

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Muto wrote:

How many miles in a year and a half?

Until a vehicle has shown me it’s maintenance needs for 60,000 miles it means nothing.
Then the true cost of ownership becomes clear.
When they hit 150,000 it separates the men from the boys.
Yes, I pound the miles.

8500 miles so far. From https://www.carchex.com/content/tesla-warranty
They all come with a 4 year/50,000 mile warranty
you can upgrade to a 8 years/120,000 miles
Body Rust Limited Warranty: 12 years or unlimited miles

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Muto wrote:
Joshk wrote:
Since few separate Tesla Motors from Elon Musk, let me start with stating I don’t agree with everything he says, but he knows how to build a killer car company.

I’ve owned a Model 3 from Tesla Motors for about a year and half, and it is the best engineered and best driving car I have ever owned, by FAR.

A Home Depot employee asked me last week “how long it takes to charge that”. The correct answer would have been, how long did our phones take to charge last night? Hell if we know, we just plug them in. At home.

As far as people’s fears the grid can’t handle them, you should know that you can set how fast they pull power. If you want it to sip power at 5 amps, no problem.

How many miles in a year and a half?

Until a vehicle has shown me it’s maintenance needs for 60,000 miles it means nothing.
Then the true cost of ownership becomes clear.
When they hit 150,000 it separates the men from the boys.
Yes, I pound the miles.

It is well known that newer vehicles (made in the last 5 years) are designed to be throw away. They are engineered for efficiency, not longevity. Engine tolerances are increased to reduce friction inside the engine (and lighter oil, 0W-20 for example) so they wear out faster (start burning oil). They use complicated and expensive cvts instead of torque converter automatics or manuals. Again, more efficient. All the plastic parts (intake manifolds, valve covers, oil pans, throttle bodies, breather hoses, etc) may get you to 125k without cracking or warping, but maybe not. They’re putting the ECU and PCMs in the engine compartment now so if you get in a fender-bender and damage it, they total your car because it’s crazy expensive to fix. Not to mention all the computers controlling the interior/exterior lights, windows, seats, gauges, radio, safety stuff, stability control, brakes etc. New cars are nice and tech is cool, but I don’t like automakers forcing you to buy a new car every ten years because it’s really expensive to repair off warranty, or is falling apart. I think Tesla offering such a generous warranty is nice. I wonder what the limits are?

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And especially nowadays that to be “green”, cars are being built with biodegradable(!) parts, panels, etc.

Mercedeses from the ’90s had biodegradable wiring. Yah, after a few years in the steamy hot under-hood environment, the insulation starts to crack open and crumble, letting now-nekkid wires to short out.

Wunderbar…

 

Oh yeh, I used to keep a set of plastic funnels for additives in the gas-tank, etc., and inside the car, not even in sunlight, they turned from a nice red flexible plastic into pale sickly pink “stuff” that crumbled at the slightest touch.

Now imagine your airbox or similar goodies behaving the same way.

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Plastic has come a long way and is better than ever, but living at 150 or 200 degrees or more for years takes a toll. Not to mention being exposed to hot coolant, old acidic oil, solvents, and gasoline. If a mechanic or DIY’er isn’t careful, it’s easy to crack a screw hole or mounting point. That can cause vaccum leaks or coolant leaks or oil leaks. Hit a big bump and you might crack that plastic pull pan or transmission pan. I get lighter and cheaper, but should be better…

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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
xevious wrote:
One gripe I have with Tesla—TOO MUCH TOUCH SCREEN RELIANCE! You need tactile controls.

This x100. When I worked at a Toyota dealership I HATED driving Prius Primes for this reason. You can’t set your cabin temp, fans, etc. without looking over at the center touchscreen. With physical controls you can do it solely by touch.

Not just annoying, but downright dangerous because stupid people will look at it while driving. OTOH, the fact that more controls like audio, bluetooth, etc. have buttons right on the steering wheel is probably my favorite feature that most newer cars have.

There was study about it:
https://www.traffictechnologytoday.com/news/planning/infotainment-system...

Quote:
The study’s authors conclude, “For both touch and voice control with both systems, reaction times were greater than established benchmarks of the effect of alcohol consumption (at the legal limit) and cannabis use on reaction time when driving.”

Cars shouldnt feel like fancy tech gadgets. Nothing better than good old buttons to adjust stuff.

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