FEBRUARY 2012: NEW Panasonic NCR 18650A 3100mAh batteries $13.96 Protected (black)

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ChibiM
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FEBRUARY 2012: NEW Panasonic NCR 18650A 3100mAh batteries $13.96 Protected (black)

International Outdoor Shop (IOS) has now released the newest and *upgraded version of their 3100mAh cells,

that again have the Panasonic 18650A cells under their "hood"!
And now have a much better looking wrap (black).

According to HKJ`s tests, they perform really good!
And are probably the best "budget 3100mAh cells" on the market right now.

intl.outdoor.shop has them now for $13.96

 

Important note:
Owners of the older Blue Protected batteries bought from IOS, can be given a compensation on these new cells.
If you are interested in the new batteries, and had bought the blue ones before, please contact Hank to get a discount on the new batteries.
Tell him the amount of blue ones you bought from him, and he can give you a discount of $2.96 each, for the same amount of batteries that you bought before.So you only pay $11 each

If you want more then the amount you previously bought, they will be available at the normal price of $13.96


Quote HKJ:

"Conclusion

This battery uses a good cell, this secures many things:

  • The batteries does match in capacity, i.e. they can be used in series.
  • The battery is very safe.
  • The battery has the specified capacity.



The battery has a very high current limit, this does not mean it can sustain more current than other 3100 mAh batteries, but just that the safety circuit will react later.
All in all a very good battery."

END QUOTE

Edited by: Anonymous (not verified) on 08/14/2012 - 15:00
SpaceCowboy
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You have like 3 different threads for the same product. I don't know where to post.

Last time you've had a problem with protection circuit.

 

Question:

At what current draw level protection will be activated ?

 

Thanks

ChibiM
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Thank you cowboy for your post and question.

I have only 2 threads.. and this one is about the NEW cells..
And the other one about the OLD cells... (2 different products)

Please have a look at the link I provided in the opening post, where the cells have been tested.
There you can find the answer on your question.

The new black version:

PCB protection trip current (A) 11,7

for comparison: the old blue version

PCB protection trip current (A) <3


(The other reason for opening this new thread is to share that this cell is now available.
While there was already a Deal Alert thread about the first version, I thought it would be better to open a new thread, because after all, this is a new product, thus a new Deal.
And it is much easier to find Good Deals, if they are posted in the Deal Alert forums, rather than searching through all different kind of threads about tens of different cells)

Chicago X
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I appreciate the update on these cells.  Thanks !

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yavi
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That is good news, but there is one thing I would like you to clarify:

ChibiM wrote:

PCB protection trip current (A) 11,7

for comparison: the old blue version

PCB protection trip current (A) <3

 

Does it really trip at 11.7A?

Isn't it too risky knowing panasonic recomends a maximum discharge of 6.2A?

BetweenRides
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Thanks for the update, Chibi.

HKJ
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yavi wrote:

Does it really trip at 11.7A?

Isn't it too risky knowing panasonic recomends a maximum discharge of 6.2A?

No, it is not really risky, you can find videos of people that shorts the NCR18650A. The cell can easily survive this, but it will reduce the total lifetime. According to some internal Panasonic documentation I have seen the maximum recommended continuous drain is about 3.5 ampere on the cell, if you want maximum lifetime.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

sandanbob
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Is the $13.96 for one or for two cells- all the pictures show two.

BetweenRides
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Price is for one battery.

yavi
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HKJ wrote:

yavi wrote:

Does it really trip at 11.7A?

Isn't it too risky knowing panasonic recomends a maximum discharge of 6.2A?

No, it is not really risky, you can find videos of people that shorts the NCR18650A. The cell can easily survive this, but it will reduce the total lifetime. According to some internal Panasonic documentation I have seen the maximum recommended continuous drain is about 3.5 ampere on the cell, if you want maximum lifetime.

Thanks HKJ,

Just to know, Did you use it DD with an XM-L and measured the consumption?

 

I bought already 4 of the blue ones, so I will consider the offer...

Boaz
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   ChibiM  for president

 domo ari  gotcha

       καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                            

       Dc-fix diffuser film  >…  http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208

SpaceCowboy
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HKJ, in your review you said that protection trigger is set too high.

At what current level protection should trip when using this Panasonic cell then?

 

HKJ
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yavi wrote:

Just to know, Did you use it DD with an XM-L and measured the consumption?

 

No, I used to special equipment, I have shown it here.

 

SpaceCowboy wrote:

HKJ, in your review you said that protection trigger is set too high.

At what current level protection should trip when using this Panasonic cell then?

 

As close as possible to the rated current, but to avoid accidental triggering I would prefer something like 30 to 50% above it, Panasonic shows discharge curves up to 5.9 ampere, this would give a protection around 8 ampere.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

Hikelite
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The most important thing is the over-discharge and over-charge protection. Which is judged  by the voltage so in that case the current can trip at 1A or 7A and may have nothing to do with the actually drawn current at the moment.

As I can see the cell is second after Redilast in what it can do at 5A. The Redialst shows an "unsually" good curve for the Panasonic NCR18650A, (Jason is good, he knows what to send).  
The current trips as I can see,  identically with the Redilast 3100.

 


HKJ we know that a high current current can be sustained very easily for a short time. Let's say that one would discharge the cell at 10A not 11.7A, would it still finish/work down to 2.5v or the protection would trip after 3-4 minutes? Because if you keep trying to increase the current until you find that pulse point where you end up tipping the protection, the protection may very well activate at a lower constant current. In this case I mean lower 10A or 9A, just to be lower than your 10 times test on these cells.

HKJ
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Hikelite wrote:

As I can see the cell is second after Redilast in what it can do at 5A. The Redialst shows an "unsually" good curve for the Panasonic NCR18650A, (Jason is good, he knows what to send).  
The current trips as I can see,  identically with the Redilast 3100.

 

My guess is that both batteries has 3 good transistors in the protection. This is probably also the reason for the high trip current, the protection IC measures the voltage over the transistors and if it is to high it assumes over current. When the transistors has a very low voltage drop, the current limit will be high.

 

Hikelite wrote:

HKJ we know that a high current current can be sustained very easily for a short time. Let's say that one would discharge the cell at 10A not 11.7A, would it still finish/work down to 2.5v or the protection would trip after 3-4 minutes? Because if you keep trying to increase the current until you find that pulse point where you end up tipping the protection, the protection may very well activate at a lower constant current. In this case I mean lower 10A or 9A, just to be lower than your 10 times test on these cells.

Yes, the protection is temperature sensitive. I have not done any test at 10A+, except I have seen that the limit might be even higher if I test faster (I did a test where I instead of starting at 3A each time, started slightly below the last trip current).

On the EagleTac 3100 batteries I measured the trip current to 6A and the batteries could handle a 5A discharge without tripping.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

Hikelite
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HKJ wrote:

......

 

Yes, the protection is temperature sensitive. I have not done any test at 10A+, except I have seen that the limit might be even higher if I test faster (I did a test where I instead of starting at 3A each time, started slightly below the last trip current).

On the EagleTac 3100 batteries I measured the trip current to 6A and the batteries could handle a 5A discharge without tripping.

But wouldn't 10A load generate a lot more heat than a 5A load?  Also the Eagleatc 3100 is not giving as much capacity as the Redilast 3100 or IOS 3100 at 5A.

 

Price
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Great writeup! Any coupon code? Might buy a few of these! Laughing

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HKJ
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Hikelite wrote:

But wouldn't 10A load generate a lot more heat than a 5A load? 

Assuming the protection trips at the same voltage across the transistors, it will be about the double amount of heat.

Hikelite wrote:
Also the Eagleatc 3100 is not giving as much capacity as the Redilast 3100 or IOS 3100 at 5A.

That is due to the higher resistance in the protection.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

Tecmo
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HKJ wrote:

 

Hikelite wrote:
Also the Eagleatc 3100 is not giving as much capacity as the Redilast 3100 or IOS 3100 at 5A.

That is due to the higher resistance in the protection.

Does that mean if each were driven at 5A every time they were used, the Eagletac would have a longer service life? 

These cells are similar in price.  Disregarding price which would you choose for a high output xml?  Also, would there be any difference between the two in a hard driven xpg/xre?

HKJ
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Tecmo wrote:
Does that mean if each were driven at 5A every time they were used, the Eagletac would have a longer service life?

No, only that you would get slightly less energi out of them.

 

Tecmo wrote:
These cells are similar in price.  Disregarding price which would you choose for a high output xml?  Also, would there be any difference between the two in a hard driven xpg/xre?

For a light that uses 3 to 5A (i.e. one battery for a XM-L) I would prefer the intl-outdoor battery, but for a xpg/xre the difference is to small to have much significance.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

Night Breaker
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Is $3 off really a remedy for those who bought the blue version of this battery?

ri chevy
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I agree.  I was hoping for a replacement.  So my 3 blue batteries that I bought in December (2 months ago) and received in late December that I paid $35.88 for are only worth $8.78 ????????  There has to be a better plan than this. 

ChibiM
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You could have had contacted Hank after you received the blue ones, and had sent them back! he would have given you a refund. So it's most likely you haven't contacted him.
ri chevy
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Well.  No, I didn't.  I was trying to see how this all worked out.  It appeared that he was working on a solution to the problem with the batteries and the PCB.  So I waited.  But I have to admit that I am not to thrilled with the current solution.  Frown

yavi
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ChibiM wrote:
You could have had contacted Hank after you received the blue ones, and had sent them back! he would have given you a refund. So it's most likely you haven't contacted him.

I contacted before purchasing them asking how many amps would it give before the protection kicks and the answer was 6A and it wasn't.

I did not complain about it, but what was sold was not as described, and sending back the batteries cost more than the batteries, so it is not the best solution.

I think a bigger disccount for the people who bought the blue ones should be made too.

ChibiM
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Hi Yavi,

I think the first thing you should have done after you knew about all this is contacting them!!!

Even I had only bought 1 blue cell, Hank paid me for the return shipping and gave me a refund.
I know he would have come up with a solution.. you better had asked him...




yavi
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ChibiM wrote:

Hi Yavi,

I think the first thing you should have done after you knew about all this is contacting them!!!

Even I had only bought 1 blue cell, Hank paid me for the return shipping and gave me a refund.
I know he would have come up with a solution.. you better had asked him...




It is him who should have contacted his customers not the customers contacting him, as he is fully aware of the problem.

Nevertheless he is in time to solve it ginving a better disccount or letting people sending the batteries back with a full refund.

I do not like complaining too much, but don't tell me it has been done as it should from Intl-outdoor.

I understand it is not only their fault, it might be the supplier who installed a not that good pcb and did not tell Hank about it, but or they wasn't tested at all at Intl-outdoor or he was not telling the truth when I asked.

ChibiM
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I can understand your feeling. But...
A seller can`t just contact every single buyer who bought of them.. I imagine thats just a load of problematic work....
And at least now he has a solution to give you a discount on the new batteries.

and about the max A he answered.. He probably just took it from the Panasonic cells, which can handle 6A.. He hadn't tested it, and trusted the supplier.
That was his lesson, and after HKJ tested the newest version, he put them on the market!

That was his lesson, and our lesson is contacting the seller of any product you are not satisfied with.
Did you read the old thread about the blue ones..?

yavi
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I appreciate the effort of asking HKJ to test them this time, and now we all know how the product is.

ChibiM, I deal with the after-sales support in the company I work for, and when there is a mistake on the design, or from a supplier we always tell our customers about it, and we send the correct material with no cost, as it is not the customers fault we did not test a product from a supplier or manufacured by us when it is not as advertised.

 

"That was his lesson, and our lesson is contacting the seller of any product you are not satisfied with.
Did you read the old thread about the blue ones..?"

Their fault is not the customers fault, so there should not be any lesson for the clients.

Yes I did read the old thread, and as you can see, if you read it again, I said there I had the problem those batteries have.

I repeat, I do not like complaining all time, but I suggest a good solution for what had been done wrong in the first place is to make a better discount for the people who already bought the blue ones.

If I had to learn the "lesson" I would not buy in that site any more, but I would like it to work better not to ruin it, that is why I am asking for a better solution.

 

ri chevy
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ChibiM:  Obviously we are going to agree to disagree on the topic of customer service at intl-outdoors.com.  I contacted Hank, and I too feel the way he is dealing with this battery situation is wrong.  I guess it is the old adage of "buyer beware."  The only thing I did was buy the under-performing batteries and pay for them, as I was instructed to do on the website.  Hank, after realizing that the batteries did not perform "as advertised," should be replacing the batteries with the correct, proper performing, "as advertised" batteries, and taking the issue up with whomever he bought them from in China or Japan.  I, and yavi, both agree that sending the batteries back to China on our dime, to get a refund is not worth it.  It would cost more for the shipping for us to send them back.  As is the $2.96 credit for the new batteries. Just totally unacceptable.  

In business it should always be customers come first.  If customers are not satisfied, then the business should make it right.  This whole battery purchase has been an eye opening experience for me.  The $2.96 credit is not really worth it, and sending the batteries back on my dime is also not worth it.  I am appalled at the outcome, and appalled that a fellow member is actually sticking up for him and standing by him.  The one and only thing to do here is the right thing to do.  That is to find out who the affected members are who purchased the batteries, ask them if they want the batteries replaced with the new ones, or keep their old ones.  Then FIX the problem.  As simple as that.  There really should be no other solution.  Make it right.  Plain and simple. 

My only option here is just to not do business with the company any more.  I too tried to be a gentleman and work out the battery issue, and continue to do business, but it is just not happening I guess. 

I'll chalk it up as a loss on my end as a customer. 

Sorry - rant out. 

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There is a new green version of this battery out now as well at going gear 25$ for 2 shipped and a unprotected as well;)

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