>sidecross
Great! that’s the thread I was hoping for.
We do they are springing up all over the place as well as wind turbines both onshore and offshore , which is great,sadly they can’t stand on their own two feet and compete with traditional forms of energy generation , so are heavily subsidised - or they would never happen - by additional charges on everyone’s electricity bills for the next few decades, so whilst it’s good for the environment it’s not so good for the householder, especially the poorest who already struggle with energy bills.
Finally got time to reply, it’s been a busy Monday. Upstate SC has some stations (about 10-15% right now) with no gas and no delivery date… Lines are about twice the usual but not bad. The station I topped off at today (Anderson SC) had a self-imposed 10 gallon limit. I haven’t seen the filling of cans but many people are driving more, ah, gently to stretch their miles out. Prices have risen about $0.20 per gallon on average, Nothing drastic happening yet but this is not over. It’s a minimum of 2 weeks to fix the pipeline and maybe double that if they find more issues.
I have something of an inside source regards this, my sister does the gas orders for a local convenience store owner and has worked for several companies doing this so she knows people, and I get word of whats going to happen 24-48 hours ahead of time from her be it a price increase or a supply problem. I knew of the stoppage Monday AM but heard there was some kind of problem last week (which happens more than you’d think, but usually only affects prices). I’m already close to set for this personally with room for maybe 10 more gallons storage which I’ll take care of tomorrow, and that supply will last me 7-14 days according to where my work takes me. Plus I’m staying topped off every day in the work van, my living depends on it getting me and my equipment there and back and at a best of 10MPG there’s no room for slackness.
What the news isn’t saying is that the pipe had been leaking for a week before it was shut down and they knew about it right from the start but did essentially nothing for 7 days, Only when it got worse and became an environmental mess did they act to fix things and then they ‘discovered’ that it was worse than they thought. That company has a rotten record of maintaining their pipe systems and I would not be surprised if they find a lot more problems. This was a lack of maintenance issue; old pipes that should have been replaced long ago but weren’t. The Federal Government is now involved and they’re not going to allow it to be turned back on until it’s all been inspected, so it could be out of service for a month or two based on what the Feds want to see happen. There are alternate means of supply which will be adequate to prevent disaster but there might be some rationing needed. The main issue is going to be prices- you pay a $2.5K offload fee to fill your batch of tankers with maritime-market-priced fuel which already costs more than pipeline fuel, and now you’re paying for trucks too, so prices could temporarily double for us here before this is over. Pipeline fuel will go up permanently based on the extent of the repairs needed and how much that company gets fined over all this. Persons nearest ports will see less effect than those of us considerably inland. All fuel pipelines go down every few days- a bad sensor or valve or scheduled maintenance usually. That’s normally handled in a few hours so consumers don’t even know it happens, but it’s when large problems like this occur that we feel it and hear about it on the news. And nobody has resources prepared for things like this so it’s going from the start- ordering the materials after you figure out what’s going to be needed, and with the weeks delay of essentially ignoring the problem it’s two weeks at best before actual repairs begin. They’re laying a small bypass right now but it’s only about 25% normal capacity and at best that will take 7-10 days to build and government permission to begin using. We’re very vulnerable to major problems but most people have no clue of the reality. I wouldn’t know either but for my sister.
*tl,dr version:*We will get through this if people don’t panic but I’m expecting gas theft to rise so I’m upping the usual security here ASAP. I’d recommend those in affected areas keeping a few days supply on hand which will cover any interim between a run on gas and the government’s handling that adequately. Store it safely and don’t waste it, there will be gas but distribution may be spotty so if you’ve got a friend in the business stay in touch with them and keep your tank topped off every couple days.
Phil
Suprised by that I though it was still more expensive, it is here, sk if in the US power generation by solar is now cheaper than fossil fuel power generation - and I don’t doubt what you say - , why isn’t everyone in the US putting up solar panels, even if corporate intrests want to keep with fossil fuel power generation, if people on mass took it on them self’s to put up solar panels and or wind turbines that would effectively reduce the corporate intrest in building fossil fuel power generating stations.
Here lots of people do - even I have - but it’s far far more expensive than any dino forms of energy, if it was cheaper than Dino here like it is in the US I reckon every other property would have solar, especially with the prices we pay, so why isn’t the US doing it on mass ?
I ran the numbers for taking a home just like mine to solar out of interest. We use very little power in our lives except for the Air Conditioner and Stove/Oven and Microwave and Dryer. The problem I ran into even for our modest life is - what if all that stuff I listed is on at the same time? Your batteries AND inverter need to handle that. Maybe even during 5 cloudy days in a row. WOW. It gets expensive fast. But at the power-company level, even today, they have peaker-plants for that problem. Meaning extra diesel generators that can boost the output. This peak-problem is why going solar at a personal level gets cost prohibitive. So today, people that do go solar sacrifice the ability to run everything at once.
So it would be great if the power plants installed solar to just cover the average usage, and ran the old diesel generators when the demand rises.
The U.S. since 1972 has had an income distribution problem where only the upper 10% or less have had a growth in income.
I am sure those who have the income to have purchased houses and have an adequate income are or have utilized solar.
The oil producers in the U.S. as well as world producers can only see lost income with more solar and I am sure they are flexing they are muscle to keep solar energy from gaining strength.
What do you do with your solar power?
Selling to the grid makes sense, you make power, whoever needs it gets it. Most utilities hate that because it eats into their monopoly
If your going to go off grid then batteries, inverters and charge controllers will cost a lot. The source of that power does not make any difference. You can go “off grid” by charging with grid power off peak, gasoline/diesel generators, mice on treadmills, the batteries, inverters and charge controllers will cost the same 
So solar/wind feeding to grid makes the most sense economically and environmentally, but corporate interests Trump human, personal or climate change interests. Until we change our minds and vote for leaders who don’t believe in taking from society to give to the rich and powerful we will have these kinds of problems.
+1
“Money doesn’t talk, it swears”
Bob Dylan
Yes see where your coming from, I came to the same conclusion that the batteries - plus replacement every few years - and the battery inverter are very prohibitively expensive - more expensive than 6kw worth of solar pv panels -, so I just got the solar panels and let my existing grid connection deal with my peak demand, and when I’m producing more than I need my excess power feeds back into the grid, which is how most people with solar panels do it here.
If the solar panels are cheap enough in the US is that not something you could do ?, if enough do it then during the day it should drastically reduces the need for energy from the power companies fossil fuel powered generating stations
For my power company (Xcel Energy) power returned to the grid is lost money. They pay almost nothing at all for it. Then charge you full rate to take it back.
They do this by installing a “double register” meter on your house. So even if you quickly give then take, it captures their profit.
The initial cost of an at-home full-house solar system is beyond the means of most people and banks don’t loan for it alone yet but will often incorporate into a large enough building or remodeling loan. And those systems have to be twice as large to handle the way people use electricity now- part of going solar is not wasting the limited energy you’ll have and people want their convenience. The only economical solar is “Grid- Inter-tie” without batteries involved. Storing your power is the largest cost and that method is still a bit pricier than grid power, plus it cones with needing to replace the battery regularly. Grid inter-tie isn’t allowed everywhere and in some places the selling price of the power you make is artificially kept down to prevent you from ‘competing’ with the power company leaving you in the red no matter what you do. Then there are maintenance and repairs which you have to do or pay for, where on the grid that’s already incorporated into your bill. Plus not every location is good for solar. I’m on a tiny heavily shaded lot but which has great afternoon sun potential. I could use a small solar system for a partial un-gridding but I heat with electricity so a full system is simply impossible here without making a lot of other changes to go with it rendering it economically stupid to try. I may do a small system someday bur as much for hobby and emergency use as for savings.
Many of the drawbacks could be overcome by government action- no not subsidies but by requiring fairness by power companies and by de-taxing solar power items. Like in-home LED lighting which took a while to become good and economical, solar isn’t quite here yet but it won’t be long before it is. Wind power is a whole other matter. For emergency and hobby systems it’s OK in some places but there are far fewer viable locations for it and much stronger objections against it. In the right settings it is good enough now but those places are very few and it still takes loads of money to begin and maintain a large system. Another aspect here is that petro-power caries more and more taxation and regulation costs as each year goes by, which helps the solar/wind/petro financial balance look better than it actually is.
Our best approach is to be more miserly with our energy, but that ain’t going to happen in a world full of gadgets eating power where you can play if you can pay and where most people will pay rather than change how they live. Eventually every earth-sourced resource will run out. We have a finite Earth and when it’s all used up we’re all dead or going back to being a planet with a few cavemen on it. Even solar requires earth-sourced resources to function so it’s only going to extend our time somewhat and it too will be discovered to have drawbacks and problems we didn’t know of or consider eventually. So there’s no “magic pill” to cure our multiple problems, only choices we can make which will as always affect our future. We, as humans, have a p-poor record of making good choices now so I don’t expect better to happen now.
Phil
I try to use as much as possible, the excess is sold to the power company, for what it’s worth 6kw of panels over the year and the power company pay you about enough to fill the tank of an SUV twice, but as you say they don’t like it.
But I was thinking if it’s that cheap for solar or wind, and just from reading on here and other places there are clearly many people passionate about burning less fossil fuels and doing something about the issues we all face, would not a simple say 6kw panel set up - forgot battery storage or battery inverters,as you said far to expensive - something many could easily afford, no corporate involvement or waiting for things to change or politicians to act and a small step many could take to make a small different, you put up your solar pv panels or wind turbine, use what you can and feed the excess power back in to the grid for others to benifit from 
The easy way to fix this problem is to vote for solar/wind friendly leaders.
Bullseye :+1: Our biggest problem is that the minority rich are the ones running the show for themselves and not for the majority who are not rich. It is only when the majority rule themselves that the majority can ascend to a better life. I’m not anti-capitalism but I am pro-society and what’s good for the majority wouldn’t really harm the rich, only lower their potential profit margins unless they’re investing in the people themselves. Then they would do good along with the people- a win/win.
Don’t lead me- I can think for myself and I will not follow. Don’t follow me- I may err and I don’t want to drag you down with me. Let’s just go along together helping each other do well instead.
Phil
How to convert the world to sustainable energy:
- Invent solar panels and good batteries. Perfection not needed yet. (done)
- Convince everyone that change is good (haha)
- Use profits to perfect the tech and competition to drive down cost really low (doing our best, but we failed at step2, so yea…)
In the end voters are the ones who choose bad leaders who give away the farm. If we want to do better its up to us to kick them out of office and hold them accountable
Interesting, thanks.
That may be the easy way, but it isn’t the right way. I don’t want a solar/wind friendly leader. I want leaders who are honest. I believe in living according to the truth. If solar and wind energy are truly better alternatives, honest leaders will be friendly to them. As for the assertion that solar/wind is cheaper than fossil fuels, I haven’t seen any proof of that. I’d be glad for somebody to show me the math. Fair warning though, I tend to be very skeptical and somewhat critical. I can only be convinced by hard facts, not marketing materials or emotional pleas to save the Earth. LED home lighting is not what I’d call good or economical, either. It could be made that way, but the stores in my area only sell junk in the range of what they call “affordable” which is still highly overpriced, even with our government subsidies! I’d love to convert my home to renewable energy, and use LEDs in all my home lighting, but I can’t afford it. Anybody willing to finance my conversion? I’ll repay you with what I’m now paying on my energy bills every month! If you really believe that this stuff is cheaper, then you should stand to make a huge profit! 
Critical thinking is a safe-guard against people parading around with the “Truth”.