Project Excalibur - Next Generation LED Thrower (many pics) - UPDATE 2018-01-24

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Ronin42
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OMG the Detail and work for this project. O…M…G…

And I can only think of one name for it.

UBERThrower

(“It’s good that most people can’t remember their previous lives. Otherwise
things would be a lot more complicated than they already are.”
Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo)

The_Driver
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gaston01 wrote:
Is an old thread! here it is:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/38863

I have added it to my “ranking” here. Thumbs Up

The_Driver
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So, who is going to put a Black Flat into his BLF GT to try to beat this light?

 

sma tested the Osram Q8WP here (a source in China has surfaced) and unfortunately two of his only reached 190-206cd/mm^2 (same as the old XP-G2 R5/S2). It seems they are of the lowest possible Bin and thus very inefficient.

 

There is a different Osram LED though which has a higher luminance than the Osram Black Flat, the Osram Synios P2720 DMLN31.SG. This test showed that it can produce up to 297.8cd/mm^2, which is 20% more than the Black Flat. It's downside is that it only produces 200 lumens and the small Die creates a tiny spot (0.225mm^2). I think it's too small and dim for this light though. The Black Flat itself is rather dim...

Enderman
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Where did he get the Q8WP from??
All the distributors show 0 stock…

The_Driver
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Enderman wrote:
Where did he get the Q8WP from?? All the distributors show 0 stock…

Be more creative ;).
https://www.yoycart.com/Product/547738518217/
Yoycart is a Taobao agent who has an English website showing which products he offers. This makes it much easier compared to buying on Taobao directly (only Chinese).

Enderman
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The_Driver wrote:
Enderman wrote:
Where did he get the Q8WP from?? All the distributors show 0 stock…

Be more creative ;).
https://www.yoycart.com/Product/547738518217/
Yoycart is a Taobao agent who has an English website showing which products he offers. This makes it much easier compared to buying on Taobao directly (only Chinese).


Huh, interesting.
How do we know that it’s not an old Q9WP being sold as Q8WP?
If no reputable distributor like mouser or digikey have it, why would this site have it?
https://octopart.com/search?q=UW+Q8WP

EDIT- I just found it available here actually, must have recently become available Smile
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/visible-leds/1370380/

southland
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Impressive, don’t know how I missed this thread until now.

The_Driver
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Enderman wrote:

How do we know that it’s not an old Q9WP being sold as Q8WP?
If no reputable distributor like mouser or digikey have it, why would this site have it?

EDIT- I just found it available here actually, must have recently become available Smile
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/visible-leds/1370380/

That’s easy to tell: the newer Q8WP has four bond wires, the older Q9WP only has one.

The big distributors don’t have it because nobody orderered a reel from them yet. That’s what the first buyer has to do.

Thanks for the heads-up concerning RS. Wink

Enderman
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The_Driver wrote:

That’s easy to tell: the newer Q8WP has four bond wires, the older Q)WP only has one.

The big distributors don’t have it because nobody orderered a reel from them yet. Thats what the first buyer has to do.

Thanks for the heads-up concerning RS. Wink


Yeah, RS has the NAPA bin in stock, also the lowest, but what’s interesting is that there is a “V2” version which is rated for 6000mA rather than the default 1400mA, even though it shows the same lumen values.
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/displays-optoelectronics/leds-led-accessor...

Maybe they just used the default lumen value from the datasheet but the LED can handle higher currents?
If they get some in stock I might buy one of each and compare them, but they will arrive in de cember so maybe by then we can find NBPB or higher bins.

The_Driver
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Enderman wrote:

Yeah, RS has the NAPA bin in stock, also the lowest, but what’s interesting is that there is a “V2” version which is rated for 6000mA rather than the default 1400mA, even though it shows the same lumen values.
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/displays-optoelectronics/leds-led-accessor...

Maybe they just used the default lumen value from the datasheet but the LED can handle higher currents?
If they get some in stock I might buy one of each and compare them, but they will arrive in de cember so maybe by then we can find NBPB or higher bins.

They don’t mention “V2” in the datasheet. RS has a new version of the datasheet for the V2 though, datasheet version 1.1.
There are a few differences. They removed the lowest Bin “NA” and added a new top bin “PB”. The maximum constant current ist still 5A (6A is for pulsed operation). There is also an example product code, where they used to list NA and now list the NB Bin. So I would guess that these new ones will be in NB Bin.

The problem here is that this isn’t enough. You will need at least the PA Bin to get any real benefit with this LED.

Generally it’s very obvious that RS doesn’t do a good job of putting the real specifications into their database. The first Q8WP LEDs are specified as “through hole” components. Facepalm

Enderman
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The_Driver wrote:

The problem here is that this isn’t enough. You will need at least the PA Bin to get any real benefit with this LED.

NAPA means it will be either NA, NB, or PA.
No idea which bin you’ll end up getting when you purchase, since they just list the range of possible bins.

The only way to be certain you’re getting a high bin is to wait a loooong time until some places start selling PAPB or PBPB.

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I know. I’m trying to say that you shouldn’t get your hopes up. Especially PBPB will probably never happen. I have never seen this with any of their LEDs.

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The_Driver wrote:
I know. I’m trying to say that you shouldn’t get your hopes up. Especially PBPB will probably never happen. I have never seen this with any of their LEDs.

Yeah, I know Sad
I still plan to buy several of the Q8WPs when they become available to test them myself.
Probably get one or two from each of the product listings.

Do you know of any other potentially high intensity LEDs? the Lumileds one that djozz tested recently had really good thermal properties and efficiency, maybe something from that brand looks promising?

The_Driver
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Yes, the Osram Synios I linked to above. It beats the Black Flat. Other than that – no.

luminarium iaculator
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Interesting talk guys…

I am also waiting something like this

to beat old XP-G2 and I hope it will have slightly higher Vf so I can run it on fet driver 1×18650 lights Smile
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Beamshots are always a nice thing. I had a few more.

 

This is what it looks like when you are holding the light and walking around in the woods, although the pic is a bit overexposed:

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I love those night shots The_Driver. Smile

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

hanoilighting208
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Good idea ! I greatly admire your skills and abilities

The gioi den chum trang tri noi that chat luong cao, gia thanh re tai Ha Noi

The_Driver
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Thanks guys Wink

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I found some pictures which I though I had accidentaly deleted.

This one demonstrates nicely what effect the (soon to be gone!) plug in the middle of the lens has:

 

StarWars? 

 

 

With a shortend exposure only the beam stays visible:

luminarium iaculator
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Wait for heavy fog for even better and more extreme light sabre pics.

Look at my avatar. 400kcd Dereelight at heavy fog.

But of course and this are very nice pics Thumbs Up

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Thanks!
More shots from a better camera will follow in time.

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After being broken for the last half year, the light has now been fixed. The insulation of the cables running through the copper cylinder to the LED had been damaged by sharp edges which led to a short circuit. This killed the LED. 

 

Michael (RC-Lights) used a steel rope coated in chalk and tooth paste to smoothen the edges of the holes after re-drilling them at an angle by pulling it through a few hundred times. The new cables were also put into shrink tube to make the insulation more robust. This should be enough to never have this problem again.  

 

 

I sent him three more Black Flat LEDs which he tested and compared with one of the older ones. One them was better than all of the other LEDs (so it's the best of nine). He also switched out the sense resistor to reduce the current from 5A to 4.5A. This keeps the LED from going blue. 

 

After refocusing the light now does 1.7Mcd measured at 14m! cool

 

In addition to this Michael did the following things:

  1. Replaced the second electronic switch with a different type. Now both of them are used for the ramping, one for ramping up and one for ramping down
  2. Following the recommendation of the manufacturer, a 4.7uF capacitor was connected in parallel to the leads going from the battery to the driver to prevent voltage spikes
  3. Additional cables were soldered to the Stripe dimmer module to make connecting it to the USB programmer easier
  4. A new firmware was flashed onto the dimmer which raises the PWM frequency from 2kHz to 14kHz to prevent the high-pitched buzz coming from it when the light was dimmed
  5. Repaired the cracked, plastic bezel with epoxy 
  6. Replaced the UCLp lens with a new one which no longer has a hole in the middle and doesn't have any cracks

The dimmer connected to the USB programmer:

 

After this the light was finally finished. It was time to use it. 

 

Here are some beamshots comparing the light to Michael's Superthrower, which has an Olight SR-90 reflector (88mm) and a Cree XP-L HI. It does around 650kcd. The performance of Michael's light is very similar to the Thrunite TN42. 

 

 

First a shorter distance, maybe around 100m:

 

 

Next, the main target was an unlit cell phone mast at a distance of 1.2km (0.75mi).

 

Wide:

 

 

 

Tele:

 

 

 

 

At last a pic with 30s exposure just for fun:

 

Surely more pictures will follow. Smile

luminarium iaculator
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Nice pictures…

I am sure that ladies will like look of Michael superthrower.

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Nice Smile
Unfortunately your light is still #23 in longest throwing flashlights because there was nobody else between 1.5 and 1.7Mcd Sad lol
Still a great improvement for using the same LED.

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Thanks guys!

Enderman wrote:
Nice Smile Unfortunately your light is still #23 in longest throwing flashlights because there was nobody else between 1.5 and 1.7Mcd Sad lol Still a great improvement for using the same LED.

Well, yes. We didn’t do this to be higher up on the list. The best remaining LED of the first six did not reach the same luminance as the dead LED. I wanted the light to be as good as it was back in the summer, when it was first built.

lcortez321
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Any chance you might sell your new toy? Just asking. It looks amazing. How does it compare to the GT? Performance wise? Would you guys be willing to make another monster thrower for sale?

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lcortez321 wrote:
Any chance you might sell your new toy? Just asking. It looks amazing. How does it compare to the GT? Performance wise? Would you guys be willing to make another monster thrower for sale?

Nope, never! I waited years for this to become reality and it has now taken 10 months since the project started. I only had the light for close to two weeks before it broke and haven’t gotten it back yet since it was repaired.

It weighs about half as much as the GT (only three batteries instead of eight, the head is lighter), throws a bit further, has a hotspot 1/5th the size and a much darker spill. It also never overheats and is perfectly regulated with any kind of 18650 until the batteries are empty. The driver of the GT has more U.I. features you can activate and play around with though.

Building another one would cost at least 1500$, probably more. Why would you want that when you can just buy the BLF GT for 1/10th the price and get similar or better performance?

lcortez321
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I already have the GT. An amzing light indeed it is. But I just love throwers. I like collecting the best and brightest throwers out there.
I’m still waiting for someone to built a 3/4 million candela super thrower, with a least 6/8 K lumens, any chance you might be working on something like that? Most importantly, is the LED needed for such a project even exist yet?

The_Driver
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6000-8000otf lumens with 3Mcd from one LED is currently only possible by combining a Luminus CFT-90 or Cree XHP70.2 with a very large optic or reflector. Those are practically the only LEDs which are that bright. The CFT-90 is the much better suited of the two. It reaches almost the same luminance as the Black Flat I used in my light here, but with 8-times the die size.

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