Do we need a flashlight (parts) store in the EU?

Yup, read that to. This really bummed me out…
I think it’s the app ‘Wish’ that has started all this. Because my father never ever ordered anything from china before. And then I downloaded the app, and Now he buys a lot of things, and I think the same goes for a lot of people.

And yes, we would need something like Mtn.

We do have Valostore though, but I mean… take Olight X7R marauder for example.
280$ on Olightstore.
On valostore they charge 437$. Also it says it’s on sale with 62$ off…

I’m not talking bad about valostore, they are good and have a very good selection, but still…

I have been thinking of starting a small import business for budget lights, actually. Because it’s the same here as everywhere else: normal people pay overprice for Led Lenser and Petzl and even worse, they don’t know what a good product really is!

I would be interested in starting an import/flashlight business myself, however I am still a student and could simply not finance buying things (which may not sell) up front.

Sounds like a great idea. What do you consider as a budgetlight?
The flashlighthobby is not very widespread in Sweden I would say. Pretty limited.
As with knives. Especially custom ones, I have a pretty good collection I would say, not so many, but they are very good quality from very good makers.

I think the business case was more like bringing decent lights to normal people, so I’d probably start with some greats like C8, S2+, H03.

In germany there is no customs or VAT up to a certain value, and I guess it’s similar in other EU countries. So how can they demand customs and VAT for imports worth $0.1? DHL indeed also demands a fee for handling customs here but you are not obliged to use their service, you can as well go to the customs office and handle this by yourself.

No customs up to a certain value for personal imports, but VAT must be paid anyway, and for that they charge the import declaration fee which you can’t escape.

DHL is more reasonable; they charge based on the parcel value, but most small-item sellers either do not ship with DHL or it’s prohibitively expensive.

There’s also the fact that sending parcels in and from Sweden is quite expensive, so a SE-based business shipping in Europe would probably not be so attractive to other EU countries. I mean, I get free shipping to Sweden from amazon.de if I shop over €28, but the same order would probably net me about 10 euros of shipping if it were domestic. Free shipping from domestic stores typically starts comes with orders over like €50-70.

I never found good out of the box budget light unless I modded it myself and than it is not budget any more :slight_smile:
Be careful dealing with China sellers. They can make good hosts but their final touch is :confounded:

What???
You can protect certain goods from foreign substitues if:

- they (certain goods which have same consumer properties) do exist

- your goods are already restricted by other countries

  • production is limited by rare resources and can last only if goods will be consumped/recycles not far away from manufacturing
    You can check how big manufacturing contribution in GDP of your country (I suppose less than 30%), check growth of international services import/export and get the idea: goods is not greatest sector for such restrictions, actually, protecting 1000 employers you protect 100000 buyers from better goods and lower prices.

This rules wouldnt make big difference for most eu citizens (as I know most chinese stores already have warehouses in EU), but can be a problem for enthusiasts that practice purchasing rare things. So (if this idea will be implemented) it defenetly requires some decision for flashlight modders from EU.

I dont know how this fee (€13) was planned to devided by postage and customs. This are two different problems that we shouldnt mix. I see reasons of increasing shipping rate by national postage servises. International post documents were wrote long time ago but now there are no countries that can live with this rules without big losses. Just compare smallest goods (not letters) shipping rate inside you country with cheapest item youve ever got from ali. National post services cant carry this losses, while number of $1 parcels from ali increases each year.

I’ve read somewhere that china isn’t classified a delevopment country regarding postal service any more, starting this year. So the cheap shipping rates from china we have seen the last years shouldn’t apply any more. If this is true I don’t see the need for national carriers to invent new fees, and I still doubt this is legal since there are international contracts between the countries regarding postal service.

The problem is widespread cheating on VAT and duty from China.

Even companies like UNI-T sell their $200 meters with $10 “sample” or “gift” customs declarations.

This is costing lost tax revenue and is unfair to EU resllers.

Big resllers, who buy 100s or 1000s pay import tax and charge VAT. That is partly why a light or battery sold by Amazon UK is more expensive than one from Gearbest.

If this becomes widespread, we could try and find a volunteer to organsise group buys and pay the import fees. It will cost more than we pay now, but perhaps still be worth doing for low value items.

At the moment the UK Royal Mail charge £8.00. + 20% VAT for anything under £100 but over £15.00 — So far most of my personal items are legally tax free. I wasn’t charged on for my Q8 even thoght the Customs declration was accurate.

I’ve had similar thoughts, but would be offering modded lights with my own drivers and firmware. I have sold a few to fellow climbing and caving/mine explorer buddies but I’ve been so busy with firmware and driver development that I haven’t taken any time to look into starting some kind of business… and it don’t look like development is gonna stop any time soon… So if you do start a business and want to offer drivers designed and assembled in Sweden, drop me a PM.

This sounds really interesting. I’ll keep it in mind.

There’s just tons of legal stuff to research when it comes to import and sale. Don’t know if I have the energy to go through with this…

I started a computer business very similar dekades ago as a young man and I actually also thought of doing some flashlight business. But with all the duties and liabilities nowadays for manufacturers and sellers (European Product Liability Act, EC Conformity Mark, Waste Framework Directive, online marceting rules, and many more) I gave up on this idea.

I certainly don’t… not right now anyway… And there’s probably even more legal stuff to research if it comes to design and assembling, not just simply importing. So far I just sell to friends under the radar.

And also now GDPR coming…

I was thinking of organizing such online store, but so far my calculations show it is not that feasible:

Say you order a Convoy for $20 and another one for $50 from China. If both declared under $20, will be shipped free to my door. If declared with real values, first one also will be shipped free, so total cost $20, second one will cost $50+$10VAT+$8 customs declaration= total $68 and few hours in customs office.

If I open business, I will have to pay $45 (dealer price)$$$transport+5% duty+20%VAT+warranty+inventrory financing administrative for the company (office/accounting, etc.) +store/transaction cost+transport within EU - I guess with no profit the price should go up by minimum 40% from promotional prices of Gerabest and Banggood, i.e. 80-100$.

Everything sold in EU should be offered with 2 year warranty (the flashlights), so some percentage should be dedicated to warranty repairs - it is not feasible to return to China for repair. Here we can add reuirements for packaging disposal, preparation of necessary documents if you have check from consumer protection office or metrology office, etc.

There is VAT law in EU, saying, that if you sell from Bulgaria to Germany, you should register your company with German VAT number and charge German consumer with German VAT and pay it to Germany. This adds enormous cost for administration. The turnaround is to find a German company, who sells to German consumer, but they have to cover their cost, i.e. less administrative cost, but more margin into the price - so cost is still there.

In order to have a good proposal, you have to have quite a good inventory, but flashlights and parts a re not fast moving consumer goods - average inventory should be 3-4 months. If you add up one month of travel from China, you end up with 5-6 months inventory, which is again cost, that has to be put into the calculation (or business will disapear in few months).

On top of these costs is maintaing online store and inventory program, hiring warehouse, etc. - again normal cost if you want to run a business. You can skip the store and go through Amazon/Ebay, but there the cost would be ~ 30% combined listing and payment (Amazon pay or Paypal).

Another topic is the transportation in EU - the smallest part can be sent in postal envelope - this costs 6 EUR from my country to most EU countries. I guess flashlight with size of Convoy C8 would be ~ 10EUR.

If you add all these (necessary) costs to the $20 flashlight, you will reach not so nice amount and I doubt someone will buy it on this price.

If I am wrong somewhere in the calculations, please correct me, I will be more than happy to start this type of business.

I think for stock lights you’d need decent amount of volume moved and this appears to be difficult with flashlights. Regular consumers do not understand all the technical details, compare against wild competitor claims (look at all the $5 ebay lights with 5,000 lumens), and most people really won’t understand high price points. When I tell my friends that a good light is only 20-30 dollars they ask me why a flashlight would have to be “so expensive”.

Also, consumer flashlights that are used weekly or regularly have a good chance of failing in less than two years. Warranty rules in (most?) EU countries say that in these 2 years the consumer can ask for a repair or a replacement free of charge.

Which brings me to the potential production and sale of custom flashlight products. A custom flashlight product could have advantages of higher price points, a narrower/more focused customer group (hunters, people on expedition, businesses,…) and a more targeted business model. Also, warranty rules for custom-made products are different from stock/mass-volume products. I haven’t run any numbers but could imagine that a local or EU wide custom flashlight store could work for people who don’t want to learn how to mod or don’t have time/patience to buy all the parts/tools.
Margin could work if the amount of custom flashlight enthusiasts is large enough in that market.

Perhaps the Chinese sellers will open warehouses in the EU. (they already have in the USA).
I’m sure the Chinese will do something because if they don’t it’s end of sales to the Europian market.

But since this modded lights are often hot rods you have a higher risk to be made liable for damages which can get very expensive.