Do we need a flashlight (parts) store in the EU?

I’ve read somewhere that china isn’t classified a delevopment country regarding postal service any more, starting this year. So the cheap shipping rates from china we have seen the last years shouldn’t apply any more. If this is true I don’t see the need for national carriers to invent new fees, and I still doubt this is legal since there are international contracts between the countries regarding postal service.

The problem is widespread cheating on VAT and duty from China.

Even companies like UNI-T sell their $200 meters with $10 “sample” or “gift” customs declarations.

This is costing lost tax revenue and is unfair to EU resllers.

Big resllers, who buy 100s or 1000s pay import tax and charge VAT. That is partly why a light or battery sold by Amazon UK is more expensive than one from Gearbest.

If this becomes widespread, we could try and find a volunteer to organsise group buys and pay the import fees. It will cost more than we pay now, but perhaps still be worth doing for low value items.

At the moment the UK Royal Mail charge £8.00. + 20% VAT for anything under £100 but over £15.00 — So far most of my personal items are legally tax free. I wasn’t charged on for my Q8 even thoght the Customs declration was accurate.

I’ve had similar thoughts, but would be offering modded lights with my own drivers and firmware. I have sold a few to fellow climbing and caving/mine explorer buddies but I’ve been so busy with firmware and driver development that I haven’t taken any time to look into starting some kind of business… and it don’t look like development is gonna stop any time soon… So if you do start a business and want to offer drivers designed and assembled in Sweden, drop me a PM.

This sounds really interesting. I’ll keep it in mind.

There’s just tons of legal stuff to research when it comes to import and sale. Don’t know if I have the energy to go through with this…

I started a computer business very similar dekades ago as a young man and I actually also thought of doing some flashlight business. But with all the duties and liabilities nowadays for manufacturers and sellers (European Product Liability Act, EC Conformity Mark, Waste Framework Directive, online marceting rules, and many more) I gave up on this idea.

I certainly don’t… not right now anyway… And there’s probably even more legal stuff to research if it comes to design and assembling, not just simply importing. So far I just sell to friends under the radar.

And also now GDPR coming…

I was thinking of organizing such online store, but so far my calculations show it is not that feasible:

Say you order a Convoy for $20 and another one for $50 from China. If both declared under $20, will be shipped free to my door. If declared with real values, first one also will be shipped free, so total cost $20, second one will cost $50+$10VAT+$8 customs declaration= total $68 and few hours in customs office.

If I open business, I will have to pay $45 (dealer price)$$$transport+5% duty+20%VAT+warranty+inventrory financing administrative for the company (office/accounting, etc.) +store/transaction cost+transport within EU - I guess with no profit the price should go up by minimum 40% from promotional prices of Gerabest and Banggood, i.e. 80-100$.

Everything sold in EU should be offered with 2 year warranty (the flashlights), so some percentage should be dedicated to warranty repairs - it is not feasible to return to China for repair. Here we can add reuirements for packaging disposal, preparation of necessary documents if you have check from consumer protection office or metrology office, etc.

There is VAT law in EU, saying, that if you sell from Bulgaria to Germany, you should register your company with German VAT number and charge German consumer with German VAT and pay it to Germany. This adds enormous cost for administration. The turnaround is to find a German company, who sells to German consumer, but they have to cover their cost, i.e. less administrative cost, but more margin into the price - so cost is still there.

In order to have a good proposal, you have to have quite a good inventory, but flashlights and parts a re not fast moving consumer goods - average inventory should be 3-4 months. If you add up one month of travel from China, you end up with 5-6 months inventory, which is again cost, that has to be put into the calculation (or business will disapear in few months).

On top of these costs is maintaing online store and inventory program, hiring warehouse, etc. - again normal cost if you want to run a business. You can skip the store and go through Amazon/Ebay, but there the cost would be ~ 30% combined listing and payment (Amazon pay or Paypal).

Another topic is the transportation in EU - the smallest part can be sent in postal envelope - this costs 6 EUR from my country to most EU countries. I guess flashlight with size of Convoy C8 would be ~ 10EUR.

If you add all these (necessary) costs to the $20 flashlight, you will reach not so nice amount and I doubt someone will buy it on this price.

If I am wrong somewhere in the calculations, please correct me, I will be more than happy to start this type of business.

I think for stock lights you’d need decent amount of volume moved and this appears to be difficult with flashlights. Regular consumers do not understand all the technical details, compare against wild competitor claims (look at all the $5 ebay lights with 5,000 lumens), and most people really won’t understand high price points. When I tell my friends that a good light is only 20-30 dollars they ask me why a flashlight would have to be “so expensive”.

Also, consumer flashlights that are used weekly or regularly have a good chance of failing in less than two years. Warranty rules in (most?) EU countries say that in these 2 years the consumer can ask for a repair or a replacement free of charge.

Which brings me to the potential production and sale of custom flashlight products. A custom flashlight product could have advantages of higher price points, a narrower/more focused customer group (hunters, people on expedition, businesses,…) and a more targeted business model. Also, warranty rules for custom-made products are different from stock/mass-volume products. I haven’t run any numbers but could imagine that a local or EU wide custom flashlight store could work for people who don’t want to learn how to mod or don’t have time/patience to buy all the parts/tools.
Margin could work if the amount of custom flashlight enthusiasts is large enough in that market.

Perhaps the Chinese sellers will open warehouses in the EU. (they already have in the USA).
I’m sure the Chinese will do something because if they don’t it’s end of sales to the Europian market.

But since this modded lights are often hot rods you have a higher risk to be made liable for damages which can get very expensive.

Some larger shop’s have an Incoterms 2010 term who include custom dutys. (The buyer don’t pay any custom duties!)
like reichelt, rs online (for business)

If you need just small stuff you could get it shipped to me and I send it from Germany to you
1.5€ below 50g and 10mm

3.2€ 500g for combining thicker and more heavy stuff like multible orders of small lights

Yes, you are right. A high-performing flashlight product would need a variety of disclaimers and some form of liability exclusion, if at all possible. Just imagine you’d sell a FET triple or quad and some child gets to play with and leaves it in the trash can while switched on high…

They already have - both Banggood and Gearbest. They keep there quite limited assortment (compared to China mother store) and the prices are noticably higher. Plus shipping is quite steep. On top they only keep the stock duty free, i.e. if you order from there, the envelope comes with big yellow sticker, that VAT is not collected, so chances are if you have problems with chinese deliveries, to have similar problems with EU warehouse.

So if you draw the line, you pay more than ordrers from China, do not have warranty and VAT paid, only advantage would be (slightly) faster shipping. If they start competenig with legitimate businesses, they won’t have the price advantage.

Time to find new hobbies, I guess, since this kills both flashlights and anything with microcontrollers.

Yea no not at all they just want tax money that they feel they are missing out on.

If it realy was about jobs then they would look at transports and construction… 99% is from some none english speaking contry.

Hum, the question is if we can afford other hobbies without ordering from China where the components and final products are much cheaper than in Europe :person_facepalming:

I ordered once from NKON, 3 Sanyo 18650 with top button. The batteries costed 13€, the shipment costed 14€! And it took almost 2 weeks from Netherlands to Portugal.
For the same price I can buy 8 (at least) 18650 from BG or GB with some coupon.

The thing is, not all the big sellers have the possibility to have wharehouses in Europe (Fasttech, AliExpress stores, Intl-Outdoor, and many others), even if we buy from them a lot.

Despite I know there number of importations from abroad is getting bigger everyday, can the European market apply such laws to refrain those numbers? My country - as many other EU countries - has opened itself for the Chinese market and investors; will they close the “gates” again and cease these agreements? :expressionless: Not sure about that…

About the idea of a European store with flashlights and parts, I guess it is a brilliant and - eventually - necessary idea. At least for parts, such as drivers and other components (in my case).
But, I don’t know if the business volume will flow without being associated to some brands / sellers / wharehouses…

Let’s see! Thanks for opening the discussion :+1:

Gearbest already has a warehouse in EU.
They keep most of their labour costs in China and cover logistics + taxes here.
From Poland I can ship the cheapest package for €1.2 worldwide. 500g is €2.67 within Europe and €2.75 worldwide.

Lexel and Agro,

There are Customs limits so for example one can’t order lets say 3 flashlights that costs over 100 euro. Right?