High CRI leds, comparing R9 values, XP-G3 N219c N218b XM-L2 XP-L2

96 posts / 0 new
Last post
jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 43 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 5060
Location: Central North America

kiriba-ru wrote:
No.
90CRI XP-G3 have much bigger R9 rate than most 70-80 CRI cree leds. But they look much more yellow/greener than xp-g2 3d for example.

I agree with you, but you do not seem to have understood yet, that I am not talking about the Low CRI LEDs you are mentioning. The title of this thread is specific:
High CRI leds, comparing R9 values, XP-G3 N219c N218b XM-L2 XP-L”
Im specifically comparing these 10 high CRI LEDs:

these next 4 are the 219c from Clemence in 2700k, 3000k, 3500k, 4000k

staticx57 wrote:
Yes I did measure these myself using the software CT&A and an XRite i1 Pro Spectrophotometer

Id like to offer you another data point. Here is an LED I swapped into a Preon P1 (Run on high). Oslon 3000k 95 CRI. To my eyes this has both too much yellow and a tiny bit too much green.

That is awesome that you have the software to compare CRI. I look forward to learning more from you posts.
I agree that sample Oslon has very high R9 and appreciate your comment that it has Yellow/Green Tint. I feel the same way about the 3000k N219c I posted, even though it falls very close to the BBL it lands slightly above. Also true for the 4000k N219b in the Tools that I posted.. High in R9 but more Yellow than Rosy Tint, and the Tint chart confirms they land slightly above the BBL
Do you also have the ability to chart the Tint of LEDs you test, showing where they land relative to the BBL?
Tjohn wrote:
… The differences in CRI, R9, and location relative to the BBL are major variables.

Thanks! I really appreciate your photos comparing specific High CRI LEDs that I included in the 10 I am comparing. I get similar results with my sw45 9080 compared to my sw40 9050.
And I agree completely that CRI is a separate varible from Tint relative to the BBL, and CCT is also a separate variable.

Tjohn
Tjohn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 12/22/2015 - 07:22
Posts: 334
Location: continental drift

All emitters are from Clemence
All are in PT16s except for the sm303 in a D4 quad
PT 16s set to medium, the D4 at default ~145 lumens
Left to right
219b sw45 9080
219b sw40 9050
219c sm403 9050
219c sm 303 9050
*The sm 303 was affected by the daylight balance setting used.

Tjohn
Tjohn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 12/22/2015 - 07:22
Posts: 334
Location: continental drift


This time, PTs on High, D4 also ~~800 lumens
Upper left – 219b sw45 9080
Lower left – 219b sw40 9050
Upper right – 219c sm403 9050
Lower right – 219c sm 303 9050

Tjohn
Tjohn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 12/22/2015 - 07:22
Posts: 334
Location: continental drift


The only ~Hi CRI Cree(n) available to me here in Brazil to compare the 219c sm303 with, is the 80+ cri 3000k. XPL – HI sold by RMM.
Here are two attempts, trying to persuade two different cell phones to take care of a comparison.

The_Driver
The_Driver's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 4 days ago
Joined: 10/20/2016 - 05:51
Posts: 1462
Location: Germany

Here’s a tint comparison I did in the past featuring many high-cri high-R9 LEDs.

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 43 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 5060
Location: Central North America

Thanks fort the beamshots

by any chance does anyone reading this have software that can produce Tint and Spectrum charts like this?:

images originally from maukka:

I find those really informative, and far better than any beamshot I can produce

maukka
maukka's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: 12/31/2015 - 04:15
Posts: 2175
Location: Finland

If you have an instrument that spits out the CIE xy coordinates (practically any colorimeter or spectro), you can just plot them in a spreadsheet program such as Excel with a suitable background image positioned accordingly to represent the BBL. Other option is to use Osram ColorCalculator. But a CCT and duv value will represent the same data in text form just fine.

The colorful spectrum is from hcfr (which also can do the tint plotting)

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 43 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 5060
Location: Central North America

Thank You for the help maukka!

I got the Osram Color Calculator installed successfully

Ive got some studying to do.
Learned hcfr is incompatible w Macintosh.

btw, I bought the S1 Mini High CRI, after reading your review, so I was not shocked to see the green tint.
It is a birthday present from my daughter, a non flashaholic.
When I turned on my present, the first words out of her mouth were
It’s green.

I laughed and replied, yes, I expected that.
Thank You for my
Green Lantern!:-)

maukka Im grateful to you for helping me maintain my sense of humor about Tint.
Instead of feeling Angry at Green, the 0Light Tint is a source of Comic Relief for me.
I think its funny that I’m such a snob.

PWM list causes inanity:
“Why is this list allowed to remain on CPF? It may be negatively impacting flashlight sales”

Tjohn
Tjohn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 12/22/2015 - 07:22
Posts: 334
Location: continental drift

kiriba-ru wrote:
……
3. Looking only at R9 is not good idea. Even one point at 2-axis tint graph have more correlation with real feelings.
4. You are not right, this is tint lottery. Each cree led is different, and this range is too big. I wont wonder if Zebralight orders reels with “tint package” (named like E2-E5).

…..even Nichia can provide lottery opportunties, with their stated ‘R9 margin for error’ of 6.5% in the data sheet I checked, giving them ample ‘wiggle room’ when their feet are held to the fire.
Not to throw the ‘baby out with the bathwater’, R9 may be a good starting point, but as can be seen from the newer Hi Cri offerings coming from Nichia, and tests in other BLF threads by our impartial mavens, the writing is on the wall, marketing is lumen driven.
219a, 219b, 219c, 219d, and now the new generation taking over, R.R.I.P.
Sadly, Nichia is becoming better at producing the highest R9 emitters, while freeing themselves from their trademark Rosey legacy. Those of us with vision issues, and others who need color contrast in addition to brightness contrast, can be heard lamenting.
-
Yuji and Nichia mix their own phosphors, giving them a leg-up over most competition. Their specialization in humancentric lighting shows they care more, but not all that much when it comes to flashaholism.
staticx57
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 15 min ago
Joined: 04/11/2016 - 00:43
Posts: 713
Location: New Jersey, United States

staticx57
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 15 min ago
Joined: 04/11/2016 - 00:43
Posts: 713
Location: New Jersey, United States

Jon,

Using HCFR I was able to plot the tint of the Osram Square

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 43 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 5060
Location: Central North America

staticx57 wrote:



Osram Square

thanks, super helpful!
great Tint plots, E21 6500k tint looks really close to BBL
related: djoz put an E21 2200k version in an S Mini Copper

yes, I can see how the Osram Square would look yellow, since I have a 3000k N219c that I consider yellow, and it sits even closer to the BBL. Also have N219c 4000k, that I find rather green.

Tjohn
Tjohn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 12/22/2015 - 07:22
Posts: 334
Location: continental drift
The_Driver wrote:
Barkuti wrote:

The_Driver wrote:
A R9-value of 40-60 is not bad, it’s much, much better than 95% of standard LED flashlights (most have a negative R9-value). …

Heard this before but, how is a negative value possible? Suffice to say I do not understand how the CRI colour scores work, of course, but to me a 0 is a 0 which would mean no emission in these frequencies. 


 


Cheers Smile

It becomes obvious when you check out here how the individual Ri values are actually calculated (specifically Step 9).

After reading the Wiki Digested info cited, and since the subject of this thread has to do with R9, it could be constructive to point out, (AFAIK) R9 is not one of the parameters used in CRI calculations.
For this reason, it is needed for evaluation.

From myledy.com…
Color Rendering Index (CRI) and R9, are two vital elements to consider when choosing LED or necessary interior items…….For us to define the term R9, it is first important to understand what the Color Rendering Index is. Color Rendering Index is a rating system that measures the precision of how well a light source generates the color of an illuminated object. It gauges the light source’s capacity to display object colors “sensibly” or “normally” compared to a conversant reference source, either daylight or incandescent light. Color Rendering Index is an average value based on R1 to R8. R9 is one of the six saturated test colors not utilized in calculating CRI.
Since some percentage of the color Red can be found mixed into the various tints of most processed colors, the ability to precisely reproduce Red is key for accurately rendering colors of displayed objects. Lamps with high R9 values create the most vivid colors.
The Color Rendering Index metric is divided into 14 color ranges from R1 to R14. Color Rendition Index is an average value based on color ranges R1 to R8 of the metric, however, doesn’t consider the remaining six extra color references. A high CRI, matched with a high R9 value yields the most precise display of color

Tjohn
Tjohn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 12/22/2015 - 07:22
Posts: 334
Location: continental drift

kiriba-ru wrote:

5. Zebralight work with cree many years. Better color rendering is not enough to leave this business relations and choose another vendor that may be worth in all other aspects

George Yo (Mr. Zebralight), has said (in posts included in other forums) he reserved the ‘n’ for inclusion as a suffix for his model numbers long ago, but was unhappy with Nichia’s previous method of binning either above, or below the ANSI BBL, instead of centered on it.

George has however, stated his personal dislike for the trademark Nichia rose hue, to nobody’s surprise.

Curious to imagine, with ZL’s previous use of Rebel emitters, anybody is going to get in a twit over sharing a miniscule slice of sales enough to compromise a business relationship (maybe a fact of life in Russia?).

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 43 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 5060
Location: Central North America
Tjohn wrote:
Color Rendering Index is an average value based on R1 to R8. R9 is one of the six saturated test colors not utilized in calculating CRI. … The Color Rendering Index metric is divided into 14 color ranges from R1 to R14. Color Rendition Index is an average value based on color ranges R1 to R8 of the metric, however, doesn’t consider the remaining six extra color references. A high CRI, matched with a high R9 value yields the most precise display of color

Thank You!
I did not know those details. It explains how Yellow/Green tinted Zebras qualify as High CRI while still having rather Low R9.

High R9 for the Win!

kiriba-ru
kiriba-ru's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 17 hours ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 02:34
Posts: 2128
Location: Russia

Tjohn wrote:

George Yo (Mr. Zebralight), has said (in posts included in other forums) he reserved the ‘n’ for inclusion as a suffix for his model numbers long ago, but was unhappy with Nichia’s previous method of binning either above, or below the ANSI BBL, instead of centered on it.

George has however, stated his personal dislike for the trademark Nichia rose hue, to nobody’s surprise.

Curious to imagine, with ZL’s previous use of Rebel emitters, anybody is going to get in a twit over sharing a miniscule slice of sales enough to compromise a business relationship (maybe a fact of life in Russia?).


Photo from official zebralight ebay selling page.
s_l1600
No comments.
kiriba-ru
kiriba-ru's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 17 hours ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 02:34
Posts: 2128
Location: Russia

I could meet some fake sellers with “zebralight” name. Somebody register them, and yes seems that they can be blocked by request. There was several accounts with *fire cell set.
I dont believe in ZL owner tint preferences. Nichia leds have another quality level, neverless tint or cri. Leds are always clean, perfectly centered, electrical properties range is very slim. But who wants to deal with them, if they dont provide whosale discount while another company can make unbeatable offer?

Barkuti
Barkuti's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
Joined: 02/19/2014 - 14:46
Posts: 5564
Location: Alhama de Murcia, Spain

What about R12? Only the Oslon Square 3000K 95CRI goes above 80 points in that metric:

 

 

Cheers Party

 

Deleting a just published post causes the forum thread answer notification to fail. Thus, if you need to change your just published post, edit it. Thanks.

Please avoid fully quoting lenghty posts, namely with nested quotes. Trim quotes down to the essential. Helps with neatness and legibility. Thanks.

I recommend saying no to Covid vaccine. Listen to your soul. Innocent

Keanu Reeves may need your help. Join his Telegram channel here.

staticx57
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 15 min ago
Joined: 04/11/2016 - 00:43
Posts: 713
Location: New Jersey, United States

Barkuti wrote:

What about R12? Only the Oslon Square 3000K 95CRI goes above 80 points in that metric:


 



 


Cheers Party


 


Indeed the r12 is better than the 219b r9080 sw40
maukka
maukka's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
Joined: 12/31/2015 - 04:15
Posts: 2175
Location: Finland

That ugly green Oslon has nothing on the E21A

staticx57
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 15 min ago
Joined: 04/11/2016 - 00:43
Posts: 713
Location: New Jersey, United States

maukka wrote:
That ugly green Oslon has nothing on the E21A

!https://i.imgur.com/pzmIBmq.png!


Oh man that’s crazy great. Have you had a chance to test anymore? I tried the 6500k and it is stunning. Have a 2000k and 3000/4000 mix in the wings but need a host. These E21As are great.
staticx57
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 15 min ago
Joined: 04/11/2016 - 00:43
Posts: 713
Location: New Jersey, United States

Optisolis anyone?


jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 43 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 5060
Location: Central North America

wow Optisol

staticx57
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 15 min ago
Joined: 04/11/2016 - 00:43
Posts: 713
Location: New Jersey, United States

A few more for you jon,

Completely different model Osram Oslon Square. 96 typical CRI. These will fit anywhere a Nichia 219 will


In the midst of a computer upgrade so not all software is reinstalled yet but here are the bins. Both emitters are guaranteed to be below the BBL:

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 43 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 5060
Location: Central North America
staticx57 wrote:
different model Osram Oslon Square. 96 typical CRI. These will fit anywhere a Nichia 219 will

those look great!
all bars are above 90
whats not to like?
assuming the tint is not above the BBL, they look like winners Smile

The_Driver
The_Driver's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 4 days ago
Joined: 10/20/2016 - 05:51
Posts: 1462
Location: Germany

Usually only the the Osram LEDs with 3500K and below have a good tint. The more neutral white ones have a more yellow tint.

SKV89
Offline
Last seen: 17 hours 28 min ago
Joined: 12/10/2017 - 12:46
Posts: 4338
Location: US

staticx57 wrote:
A few more for you jon,

Completely different model Osram Oslon Square. 96 typical CRI. These will fit anywhere a Nichia 219 will

In the midst of a computer upgrade so not all software is reinstalled yet but here are the bins. Both emitters are guaranteed to be below the BBL:

Wow guaranteed below BBL and all bars above 90 seems to suggest this will be the king of good tint/cri emitters. Where do you buy these emitters? How does it perform besides tint and cri?

jon_slider
jon_slider's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 43 min ago
Joined: 09/08/2015 - 12:20
Posts: 5060
Location: Central North America

The_Driver wrote:
Usually only the the Osram LEDs with 3500K and below have a good tint. The more neutral white ones have a more yellow tint.

this is 3000k that maukka says has bad green tint (notice the tall green bar)
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1306271#comment-1306271

these are 3000 and 3500k without the tall green bar
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1312629#comment-1312629

seems there are factors relating to different models of those LEDs, not sure

BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 12 hours ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 5608
Location: Canada

Do any of you, except perhaps for Maukka, have the Samsung LH351Bs 3000k R9070?

Would like to see some data on it.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

staticx57
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 15 min ago
Joined: 04/11/2016 - 00:43
Posts: 713
Location: New Jersey, United States

Jon, here is the binning for the 3000k Oslon tested. Not good, still trying to learn Osram’s naming schemes for these products to see which generation fits in where.

Pages