Why do you buy lights without High-CRI emitters?

Ive done a bit of math on the lumen outputs of the Lumintop Tool w 4000k N219b 90 CRI, 6000k XP-G2 70 CRI, 4000k N219c 90 CRI
The high modes are 80 lumens, 110 lumens, and 110 Lumens.
for me the Color Temperature and Tint of the 80 Lumen N219b is prefered. The CW makes reds look brown, the N219c has much lower R9 and a much greener Tint than the 219b. Supposedly the 219c is the same CRI as the 219b, which is true, but, thats only half the story, the R9 on the N219b is about 300% that of the 219c.

Comparing the 110 lumen 219c to the 80 lumen 219b shows the 219c is 38% brighter than the 219b, otoh, yet both have a CRI Ra of 90. But, thats before considering the RED (R9) output increase of 300% in the 219b over the 219c

now lets compare some colors on a specific light I recently had modified, on the left before, on the right after the LED swap to Nichia
(note the pics are to show color and tint, I did not take them at the same time, so the brightnesses are not accurate, the yellow light has almost double the lumens output on my meter, than the purple white light on the right.) and remember it takes a 4x incease in brightness to make a slightly noticeable difference in brightness. Doubling the brightness does not make a light Look twice as bright… anyway, I think this pic sort of demonstrates what I think might be a reasonable difference in brightness. more research required for further accuracy.

If you had to give up 48% of the lumens to gain 36% higher CRI Ra, would you do it?:slight_smile:

Another factor is a type of CRI called the Saturated Red (aka R9 CRI). On the Nichia it is over 95 Ra, on the XPL is is a negative number, about –15. That means that the Nichia has over 500% more Red output than the NW XPL. I have never seen anyone discuss this detail, so I started a thread about it.

If Im only looking at green things, then the piss yellow light works fine. I can even tell green things apart from red things (that look brown actually).
Otoh, if there are red things to be seen, the Nichia is a Joy to behold, for me, in the way I use my lights, which is mostly at very close range and almost always below 100 lumens.

I cant wait for midnight, Im waiting to see if the drop from 0.2 lumens of XPL to 0.1 lumens of N219b is still effective to find the toilet without stepping on the cats toys, or gooey wet hairballs… :slight_smile:

So percentage loss on a nichia swap Lumens is more than 25%, but so is the increase in CRI Ra, and so is the increase in RED CRI R9

If you had a choice to have the light on the left at 400 lumens max, or the light on the right at 200 lumens max, which would you pick?

when in doubt, the correct answer is both :slight_smile:

Same fruit under super high CRI lighting

1 Thank

Yes, a 48% drop in lumens is worth it if I would gain much higher CRI.

Even then, a 50% drop in output is not really that noticeable.

LOL!
when did you sneak into my pantry?

agreed. You and I understand each other.
The rest of the world still thinks a NW piss yellow LED is not that noticeable in actual use, and we can still tell colors apart with negative R9.
Its a tint snob thing, for whitewall hunters, to focus on R9 values, like I am atm.

I have however gained a much better understanding of people with NW leds who say things like, “it looks almost like a Nichia”. That made me put my money where my mouth is. I discovered that “I cant tell in actual use unless I look at red things”. A Low R9 LED makes red things look brown. But, I have special whitewall hunters training. :slight_smile: Im not average, or “normal”… lol

use whatever light rocks your world.
for me that means No Negative R9… this is beyond CRI Ra, which Zebra, Eagle, and Olight, have learned to “game the system”, producing “high cri” lights with low R9, green tint, and nothing like the Nichia 219b that my generation was born to love.

no judgement, just personal preferences

LEDs do not produce the same full spectrum that sunlight does, much as I wish they did. Not even all Nichias, but some Nichiast come closer to full spectrum and sunlight tint, than ALL Crees. Biased, who me?, Why, Yes! I know Red when I see it, and Cree cant show it the way some Nichias can.

btw, the N219b is extinct in the wild. There are a few left in captivity. If you want any, adopt some soon, before they are all gone to good homes.
get yours here [GB ended, news update only] Last batch of 219B sw45k R9080 and sw40 R9080 or from one of the friendly modders on that list who are stocking up. :slight_smile:

There is the E21A and Optiolosis series of LEDs that have R9080 and R9595 respectively though to meet your sunlight needs.

BTW, another unexpected of higher CRI LEDs is while they are usually less efficient, they usually have lower forward voltages, meaning, especially with a buck or boost driver, brightness is even more stable over the runtime of the light.

yes Im very curious to see some of the E21A and Optisolis.

Im not educated enough to fully comprehend VF as you describe in relation to stability over runtime

I wondered if the Nichia had a higher VF than the XPL, but I dont have the data. I just know the Nichia lost a considerably higher percentage of brightness compared to the 5000k XPL, than a 4000k Nichia does compared to a 6000k XPG2… based on brightness differences I have measure before and after LED swaps… dont know why… more education welcome

Low VF does not mean an LED is efficient. In fact, some higher VF LEDs are more efficient than lower VF LEDs, like the XP L2 having a lower VF than a Samsung LH351D, but still being less efficient per watt overall.

Lower VF is extremely useful in two applications: light regulation and pushing as much current in a direct drive situation.

Regulating a low VF LED is much easier using any type of regulation, be it linear, boost, buck. It means more constant output. This is why I like Nichia high CRI LEDs, be it at 3V or 6V for the Nichia 144AM:
even though they are not very efficient, they have low VF, meaning constant current regulation can be very flat.

The other is direct drive: the lower the VF, THE MORE current YOU CAN PUSH TO GET EVEN MORE BRIGHTNESS!

A lower Vf means there’s more “headroom” before the light pulls out of regulation, especially with linear regulators.

Eg, take LED A with 3.1V and LED B with 3.3V. Assume a 7135 that saturates at 0.1V. Also assume both LEDs are driven at the same current.

LED A will stay in regulation until the cell is at 3.2V (3.1V + 0.1V), whereas LED B will start dropping out of regulation when the cell’s still at 3.4V (3.3V + 0.1V). So that extra 0.2V of cell life means that the light will stay in regulation that much longer.

thank you both, that helps

another variable Im exploring is the effect of the Nichia swap on the photographable Constant Current Ripple on moonlight… it is not visible flicker, but my camera sure sees something…

The LED swap did not seem to change that factor

w xpl

w sw45

What do you prefer? Quality or quantity? I like quality, i like hi cri :wink:

I prefer High Quality Tomatoes

People who don’t Hunt Tomatoes, dont appreciate High CRI. ;-]

CRI R9 differences between LEDs can be much larger than CRI Ra differences alone
both these lights are High CRI, but guess which one is the Superior Tomato Hunter?:slight_smile:

There are lights with good tint that are Low CRI, and particularly low R9. They make bad Tomato Hunters.

I had an interesting experience with my high CRI zebralight SC5C MkII last night. It is slowly replacing my olight S1R as my EDC light. WHile I don’t consider myself a tint snob by any stretch, I do like the look of my AAA nichia lights. But I have been won over by the super easily rechargable Olight, with its significantly brighter capability. And I do use this from time to time.

I recently purchased the Zebralight to see what all the fuss was about. I have fallen in love with the UI, with direct access to moonlight, medium and high from off. Last night I was comparing the Olight and Zebralight on high (600 lumen for the Zebralight, not the 900 its capable of) and was definitely able to notice the Zebralight is a bit brighter on my neighbor across the street’s house. Then I turned to shine the lights in my backyard. Olight lights up the pomegranate tree just fine, then the Zebralight does also, but makes the red blossoms on the tree stand out. What a treat to see the colors from a distance at night.

I was surprised to read above that Zebralight is one of those “gaming” the high CRI with low R9. Wonder if mine is got more than negative R9? I think tonight I will have to compare it at closer range to my 200 lumen Manker E02 with nichia 219c and/or my Manker E01 with nichia 219b. Not sure what the R9 difference is between the three, but my pomegranate tree will help me see it.

I Love Pomegranate Trees!

this is an XM-L2 Zebra (not your model that use XP-L2) compared to an aaaTool w N219b 4000k 9050, (same LED as the Maratac AAA)

Only the NW and CW Low CRI lights have negative R9, I just fault Zebra and Olight for using a Cree High CRI, instead of the Nichias, that have better R9 :slight_smile:

But I know why they choose Cree, they have more lumens…
Green Lumens are brighter than Red Lumens :slight_smile:


iow, lights with tint above the BBL tend to be brighter than lights with tint at or below the BBL (a gross generalization,)

I love my pomegranate tree also, especially later in fall.

I ran a couple of test tonight. All used my Olight S1R, Zebralight SC5C Mk II, and my Manker E02. First test was roughly 15 feet from the pomegranate tree. While the leaf color was noticably different with the three lights, the flowers looked pretty similar. Using fewer lumens than last night. Hmmm.

Second test was back from the spot in the front yard where I noticed the flowers last night. Yes, the Zebralight definitely makes the flower pop out, while the Olight does not. The Manker is not throwy enough (or enough lumens from that spot) to illuminate the tree very well.

Last test was on a box with a lot of red on it. All three lights on lowest setting. Manker is the clear winner on making the red show up. Zebralight was a bit better than the Olight.

Conclusion? Not sure, but it was interesting to see how different light intensities and distances affected how I see the colors with the three lights. I would likely use the Manker more if it did not have the funky UI. I think when I first got it I liked it, but having to hold to turn off always throws me off now. I much prefer click off.

I also much prefer to click off. I hate the hold for off on my Utorch S1 Mini, but I tolerate it for other benefits over an Olight S Mini. The battery check flashes on the Utorch are very useful to me, the Olight minis do not have that. Also the Olights are tough to open, the Utorch bezel unscrews easily and the lens is Nichia friendly, the Olight Tirs are not.

If I could have an Olight with a 4000k Nichia, that would make a big difference, but I gave up on that, which is why the Utorch entered the scene.

I was also curious about the Utorch aspheric. I love it as an indoor headlamp. otoh It sucks for anything more than 10’ away. The Olights and Zebras are much better at that, due to the narrower beams. otoh, I felt the Olight sucked as a headlamp indoors… courses for horses.

I have bought a few high CRI lights, Emisars, to try and understand why people like them and still do not get it. It must be my eye sight because even with higher lumen output it feels like my eye’s are straining to focus and the dull yellow lighting gives me headaches. I prefer 5700k to 6000K. I use to get cluster migraines all through school from the florescent lighting all the time like 3 times a week, God was that hard times!!, and the high CRI has the same effect on me. I really like my Emisar lights but never use them. I really like the 5700K but it’s not a common temperature in emitters. I got one Emisar in 5000k but still see lots of yellow in the light. Then again maybe 25 years of welding has done its toll on my eyesight as well. I get optical migraines most of the time now when I weld.

It’s a bit odd and contradictory to mention high CRI as one source of your migraines, but I’m not you and maybe your migraines are induced by several factors, but :

- If high CRI induces migraines for you, daylight would be a problem, incandescent lighting would (have) be(en) also.

- Common fluorescent lighting rarely exceeds CRI70 but have constant flickering, particularly those without an electronic ballast. Retinal persistence makes it less obvious for you but your brain perceive it.

  • I’m not a welder but depending on some welding techniques (arc, etc) there could be a lot of light flickering. Your welding goggles /mask attenuate the brightness, not the flickering I guess.

It seems that light flickering and some PWM frequencies (with flashlights) might be a problem for you, more than high CRI if daylight doesn’t induce migraine…but i’m not a doctor so take this with a grain of salt.

I have to wear really dark sunglasses and still get them when driving from the reflection of sunlight off oncoming traffic windshields and glass. Its a problem I would not wish on anyone. There no where near as bad or frequent now that I am older but still happen a few times a month. If I accidently flash myself with a flashlight its instant auroras in the eyes followed by hell aka pain. I use to take an experimental drug, at the time, called Ergostat when I was around 12 and it worked great but I guess it was to dangerous for long term usage. Flickering light is like Kryptonite to me! I love welding and flashlights so its something I have to deal with. Grain of salt taken, thank you.

I’m undecided. I like the better color rendition, which can make a difference. But I cannot see the benefit in extreme flooders or throwers where the goal is to see as much as possible or as far as possible, respectively.

Happily ordered an Osram for my OTR i3 yesterday, but was amazed to catch the hour this morning where my 219B sw35 light matched the sunlight tint :heart_eyes: .

120Hz flickering from fluorescent tubes itself bothers me a bit, even where the fixtures would have those “honeycomb” grates that directed the light straight down, and you couldn’t see the bulb itself unless you were right under the fixture.

Those fixtures with coarse “ice-cube trays” where you could see parts of the nekkid bulb would bug me when in my peripheral vision.

Worst were the plain frosted plexiglass panels.

In the first case, indirect flickering light would “only” give me eye-fatigue after a few hours.

In the last two cases especially, sitting at my desk and seeing the nekkid flickering tubes in my peripheral vision would end up with me getting “eye-migraines”, where it’d feel like someone was driving icepicks into my eyes.

Immediately I climbed up and gave a half-twist to the tubes above my desk to turn ’em off, and left a note inside the fixture to “LEAVE THESE DISCONNECTED”.

As for lights over other peoples’ cubes, I actually cut apart a big box and made myself an awning to shield myself from those lights, ’til I was told to take it down (or it’d be done for me regardless). Said I had a problem with the lights, was told tough. Said no problem, I’d just call OSHA and see what they could recommend. Aha! Now they were willing to “work with me”, and asked around if this one or that would mind unplugging their overhead lights, and lots did! So it wasn’t only my issue…

Anyway, they (building owners) upgraded to LED fixtures, rather nice 4500K, but bare panels, no gratings. So I still have to go around wearing a baseball cap to have a personal awning at work.

Thank B’harni (pbuh!) I’m working from home these past few months along with everyone else, so I can bask in all-natural light all day long.