*BLF LT1 Lantern Project) (updated Nov,17,2020)

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Madtoffel
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Ok, thanks. Seems like I missed a that because I was expecting them to be one behind the other on the list because many others are, my mistake.

Quote:
Do we have a rough price estimate yet, and approx duration to manufacture? Or is it still too early to tell

We are using the Q8’s body,the same driver with some changes and new firmware, the LEDs are a little bit cheaper but we added some new features, so I would expect the price to be the same or a bit higher than the price of the Q8. My rough estimate would be around 50$ (no guarantee).
Also I wouldn’t expect to see the final lantern soon, because after we finshed our design we first need to plan the production with the manufacturer, ship some prototypes from China, test them, make some changes, ship the new prototype and so on. So you can maybe buy the lantern for the camping season next year.
dekozn
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sbslider]Ok, I have been out of touch a few days and am catching up.

[quote=dekozn

wrote:
I’m all in for 2700K

dekozn, you are currently number 363 on the interest list, are you looking for a second lantern, or just lobbying for 2700K emitters [/quote ]

For now I just want one lantern

Idiot proofing something only creates improved idiots.

ARMS.AARON
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Please add me to the list for one!

Respectfully

angerdan
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Seems tha an USB Type-C plug only charges $0.57 and is already the standard of the future.
https://aliexpress.com/item/1×-16P-16-Pin-USB-3-1-Female-socket-Connector-for-repair-mobile-camera-MP3-MP4/32769193616.html

Apple will use USB-C in future iPhones and future smartphone chargers in the EU are planned to be USB-C.
http://www.digitaleurope.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx...
https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/02/iphone-x-2-fast-charging-bundled/

Would be an advantage if the charging cable can be plugged in into the lantern without looking for the orientation of the cable. DualSide microUSB cables are still not that common and magnetic USB adapter cables are still above 10€.
An alternative could be at least to illuminate the USB Port Smile

Madtoffel
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If the additional cost for USB c is that low I would also prefer the use of USB c, but I am still not really happy with the planned low 1A charging current. Yes, it’s enough for the intended purpose of slow solar charging over the day, but I’m sure that many (especially non flashaholic) users would be happy if they don’t need to take out the batteries for reasonable charging times, so how much would it cost to implement power delivery or at least increase the current (the Olight X7r can take up to 4A)? Or would an classic DC plug be an option?
And how do you want to implement the powerbank funktion? Using the USB c with a dongle or installing an additional USB A port?

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angerdan wrote:
[…] future smartphone chargers in the EU are planned to be USB-C.
http://www.digitaleurope.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx...

[…]

Thank you, angerdan, that was useful information for the USB connection poll thread:

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1343206#comment-1343206

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ARMS.AARON wrote:
Please add me to the list for one!

Respectfully


Done, you are number 889 on the interest list.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

osb40000
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Wow, that 3000k looks NICE for a lantern. I prefer a nice warm tint for lanterns and that looks amazing. I LOVE the progress being made and can’t wait to order a bunch up. THANK YOU!

DBSAR
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angerdan wrote:
Seems tha an USB Type-C plug only charges $0.57 and is already the standard of the future.
https://aliexpress.com/item/1×-16P-16-Pin-USB-3-1-Female-socket-Connector-for-repair-mobile-camera-MP3-MP4/32769193616.html

Apple will use USB-C in future iPhones and future smartphone chargers in the EU are planned to be USB-C.
http://www.digitaleurope.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx...
https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/02/iphone-x-2-fast-charging-bundled/

Would be an advantage if the charging cable can be plugged in into the lantern without looking for the orientation of the cable. DualSide microUSB cables are still not that common and magnetic USB adapter cables are still above 10€.
An alternative could be at least to illuminate the USB Port Smile

good points on the USB-C. I do like the ambidextrous design of the interface being able to plug in either direction.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

DBSAR
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Madtoffel wrote:
If the additional cost for USB c is that low I would also prefer the use of USB c, but I am still not really happy with the planned low 1A charging current. Yes, it’s enough for the intended purpose of slow solar charging over the day, but I’m sure that many (especially non flashaholic) users would be happy if they don’t need to take out the batteries for reasonable charging times, so how much would it cost to implement power delivery or at least increase the current (the Olight X7r can take up to 4A)? Or would an classic DC plug be an option? And how do you want to implement the powerbank funktion? Using the USB c with a dongle or installing an additional USB A port?

its not really limited to 1 amp, we can probably have the charge current up to 1.5A maybe at the most, to be practical and allow the lantern to accept charging from more various smaller & lower powered charging devices, (the tests i did is with a TP4056 charger circuit and i only have a 1A version in the V1, but i did a dual TP4056 test last fall and found most all smaller USB power devices could not sustain enough voltage to run them) My thoughts and tests from experience i found that trying to pull 2+ amps from most small solar panels less than 25 watts, from most generic cig-socket adapters, Even most portable power banks i have tested and had can not sustain 2 amps very well without voltage drop or overheating. i seen the voltage drop to much and damage chargers/adapters from over-heating or not charge the cells at all with the low voltage. (as many charging circuits will cut off charging if the voltage drops below 4.5 volts. Only the massive brick-sized Interstate booster/powerbank i have seems to be the only one i have that can sustain a 2 amp USB load and keep the voltage above 4.8 volts. The built in USB charger ports in my RV can sustain 1.5 amps but not much more. Most people will likely be charging the lantern from Car USB adapters, panels, RV USB ports, small wall warts, etc. during the day when the lantern is not used anyways, and no real need to rush charge it in a hour or two. That is the problem when trying to pull to much amps from weaker USB power sources, is the 5.0 volt standard output drops substantially thus causing the charging circuit to either shut off, or go into a “switching off/on” cycle because of the voltage fall & ending up with not charging the cells at all & overloading the USB power source. 1 amp to 1.5 amps for this needs to be the upper limit really to make it more versatile and able to charge from a more wide range of USB power sources, because that is it a lantern, its likely to be used more in locations where grid-power is not available. Its better to sacrifice some charging time and have it more compatible with a wider range of USB power sources. Its better to have the lantern more versatile for charging from lower USB power sources than it is to have a fast-charge rate. For anyone to want a fast charge rate, its better to just have a second set of cells or use a external 4-bay charger when at home or on-grid power. 1-amp charging it better suited for this application to work with most power sources.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

thijsco19
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That’s weird and not how a power supply should work.

A USB power supply can maintain the 5 volt while supplying the full current. And it can’t deliver more than the rated current so you can’t overload a power supply.
There is no reason to limit the chargecurrent in the charger itself to a low current. The power supply should and will limit the charging.

A powerful power supply that can output multiple amps and will charge it faster but a smaller power supply, like a solar charger, will charge it with less amps and slower.

That’s the law of demand and supply.

Madtoffel
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Good point DBSAR, I didn’t thought about that as a possible problem. Good to know that you put some thought and testing into that decision. But maybe we could still use two TP4056 if one shuts down if the power source couldn’t handel the current. This could be done automatically with some sort of voltage drop detection or manually with a simple 1A / 2+A switch next to the charging port.

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thijsco19 wrote:
That’s weird and not how a power supply should work.

A USB power supply can maintain the 5 volt while supplying the full current.

In theory, yes.

When I’ve measured actual USB power supplies though, I haven’t found any which actually maintain full voltage at full power. Most are cheap and tend to sag. Sometimes even at just 500mA.

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thijsco19 wrote:
That’s weird and not how a power supply should work.

A USB power supply can maintain the 5 volt while supplying the full current. And it can’t deliver more than the rated current so you can’t overload a power supply.
There is no reason to limit the chargecurrent in the charger itself to a low current. The power supply should and will limit the charging.

A powerful power supply that can output multiple amps and will charge it faster but a smaller power supply, like a solar charger, will charge it with less amps and slower.

That’s the law of demand and supply.

That’s what i believed one time, until i began to use USB monitors to test my powerbanks, panels, and various adapters. A 7 watt panel i tested dropped to 3.15 volts with a 1.5 amp load. The ports in my RV can sustain 5 volts up to 1 amp, then it drops as the amps increase past that, and while i can get close to 2 amps from the ports, the voltage sags to 4.3 volts at that amperage load. (I now use a similar model to this: https://www.techtoolsupply.com/USB-3-in-1-Voltage-Current-Capacity-Meter...
also the same thing with smaller powerbanks, the voltage sags badly when the load goes up, especially on those with two USB ports. Only the best, largest, and most powerful power bricks & booster i tested can keep the voltage above 4.9 volts with a large amp load.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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Madtoffel wrote:
Good point DBSAR, I didn’t thought about that as a possible problem. Good to know that you put some thought and testing into that decision. But maybe we could still use two TP4056 if one shuts down if the power source couldn’t handel the current. This could be done automatically with some sort of voltage drop detection or manually with a simple 1A / 2+A switch next to the charging port.

That would be a good idea if its electronically possible, (and not to expensive) to have a dual charging rate design, (switchable somehow between a 1 amp trickle charging for use with lower power USB sources, then a higher rate 2+ Amp charging for use with a larger 120 volt USB power adapter. ( such as a tiny DIP-switch nex to the USB port on the lantern.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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@Toykeeper and DBSAR, all of my USB power supplies can easily do 2A continuous without sagging down 5V, or even higher. You just need to have quality sources.

However, I still think we should stick to 1.5A charging using the TP5000 IC, as to support most USB chargers as you both said, and to support cheaper long cables.

I have had cheap cables from friends actually heating up and losing a lot of power just to thin wires.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

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BlueSwordM wrote:
@Toykeeper and DBSAR, all of my USB power supplies can easily do 2A continuous without sagging down 5V, or even higher. You just need to have quality sources.

However, I still think we should stick to 1.5A charging using the TP5000 IC, as to support most USB chargers as you both said, and to support cheaper long cables.

I have had cheap cables from friends actually heating up and losing a lot of power just to thin wires.

cables definitely can cause voltage sag with small gauge wires. I never got the chance to really test out the TP5000 yet on any devices or charging.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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The part currently being pursued is the BQ25895 made by Texas Instruments. I have been trading emails with an applications engineer at TI regarding using this part with less than stellar USB power source. Here is a bit of the conversation

 

ME: Can the Ilim pin configure the chip to limit the input current, and hence the current delivered to the batteries being charged? I think what I really want to do is limit the input current such that I don't load down a USB power source, and allow as much current as is available to charge the batteries. Likley want to limit the input current being supplied to VBUS to 1 or 1.5A. Is this a simple as selecting the correct resistor on the Ilim pin (pin 10).

 

TI: yes, the ILIM pin limits input current which is directly proportional to output current SYS and BAT. If you have no load SYS, then the relationship is simply efficiency=(VBAT*IBAT)/(VBUS*IBUS) where IBUS is clamped to ILIM resistor setting. The charger also has the VINDPM feature and ICO features which prevent the charger from collapsing its input source.

 

What is key is the last sentence from the TI engineer.  I was reading about the VINDPM and ICO features last night.  Basically the IC senses the input voltage and input current being drawn from the source, and limit the current into the batteries based on several variables.  If the battery charging is demanding too much current for a given source, and causes the source to droop, the IC will back off on the demand to keep the source from collapsing due to excessive current.  Seems like this will mitigate having to artificially limit the charge current into the batteries.  The IC is also able to detect what sort of USB source it is, and base the current limit from the source based on that sources characteristics.  

From the data sheet, The bq25890 contains a D+/D– based input source detection to set the input current limit automatically. The D+/D- detection includes standard USB BC1.2, non-standard adapter, and adjustable high voltage adapter detections. When input source is plugged-in, the device starts standard USB BC1.2 detections. The USB BC1.2 is capable to identify Standard Downstream Port (SDP), Charging Downstream Port (CDP), and Dedicated Charging Port (DCP). When the Data Contact Detection (DCD) timer of 500ms is expired, the non-standard adapter detection is applied to set the input current limit. 

 

This is a very capable part which DEL selected.  BQ25895 datasheet

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sbslider wrote:

The part currently being pursued is the BQ25895 made by Texas Instruments. I have been trading emails with an applications engineer at TI regarding using this part with less than stellar USB power source. Here is a bit of the conversation


 


ME: Can the Ilim pin configure the chip to limit the input current, and hence the current delivered to the batteries being charged? I think what I really want to do is limit the input current such that I don’t load down a USB power source, and allow as much current as is available to charge the batteries. Likley want to limit the input current being supplied to VBUS to 1 or 1.5A. Is this a simple as selecting the correct resistor on the Ilim pin (pin 10).


 


TI: yes, the ILIM pin limits input current which is directly proportional to output current SYS and BAT. If you have no load SYS, then the relationship is simply efficiency=(VBAT*IBAT)/(VBUS*IBUS) where IBUS is clamped to ILIM resistor setting. The charger also has the VINDPM feature and ICO features which prevent the charger from collapsing its input source.


 


What is key is the last sentence from the TI engineer.  I was reading about the VINDPM and ICO features last night.  Basically the IC senses the input voltage and input current being drawn from the source, and limit the current into the batteries based on several variables.  If the battery charging is demanding too much current for a given source, and causes the source to droop, the IC will back off on the demand to keep the source from collapsing due to excessive current.  Seems like this will mitigate having to artificially limit the charge current into the batteries.  The IC is also able to detect what sort of USB source it is, and base the current limit from the source based on that sources characteristics.  


From the data sheet, The bq25890 contains a D+/D– based input source detection to set the input current limit automatically. The D+/D- detection includes standard USB BC1.2, non-standard adapter, and adjustable high voltage adapter detections. When input source is plugged-in, the device starts standard USB BC1.2 detections. The USB BC1.2 is capable to identify Standard Downstream Port (SDP), Charging Downstream Port (CDP), and Dedicated Charging Port (DCP). When the Data Contact Detection (DCD) timer of 500ms is expired, the non-standard adapter detection is applied to set the input current limit. 


 


This is a very capable part which DEL selected.  BQ25895 datasheet

it would be good if a charging circuit was able detect the current & voltage from a USB source to adjust the amp load/charging rate to sustain the needed voltage without to much sag, especially with solar panels which most have no regulation for the voltage sag when put under amp loads approaching their maximum output efficiency.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

Madtoffel
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Fantastic idea sbslider, the BQ25895 seems to be exactly what we are looking for. The wide voltage range with automatic step up/down is perfect to deal with unstable power surces and would us even allow to add an additional 12V input for even faster charging in the car/ trailer or with larger solar panels.

aslpg
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I am interested x2

LGW
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Put me down for 1 please sbslider.
Thanks

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aslpg wrote:
I am interested x2
aslpg get number 890 on the interest list.
LGW wrote:
Put me down for 1 please sbslider.
Thanks
LGW gets number 891 on the interest list.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

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Madtoffel wrote:
Fantastic idea sbslider, the BQ25895 seems to be exactly what we are looking for. The wide voltage range with automatic step up/down is perfect to deal with unstable power surces and would us even allow to add an additional 12V input for even faster charging in the car/ trailer or with larger solar panels.

Yes, it looks like a very capable IC. DEL gets the credit for choosing it.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

aslpg
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Add me for 1 more, for a total of 2.
Thanks.

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aslpg wrote:
Add me for 1 more, for a total of 2.
Thanks.

Ooops, sorry I missed that, your second is 892.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

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The quote below is from the D4 thread were I was discussing a Anduril FW mode observed on my emisar D4

sbslider wrote:

FWIW, if anyone is taking notes, sunset takes about 64 minutes on my light to completely set.

So I was telling my wife about the sunset mode on my D4,and her response was, “Is there a mode that does the reverse, so when it’s getting dark the light gets brighter?
Sounds like a great mode for a lantern.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

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Sunrise mode has been discussed, and there is even an early patch to implement it. It’s more tricky though, because the attiny timer is rather inaccurate. And the first patch doesn’t use sleep mode while waiting, so it uses quite a bit more power than necessary.

Let’s say the goal is to wait 8 hours and then turn on. The user could start two lanterns at the same time, and it could end up with one triggering at 7 hours and the other at 9. Or 7.5 and 8.5. Same code, same configuration, same battery voltage.

That’s the same reason why sunset mode isn’t exactly an hour. Except the timing seems to get less accurate while the MCU is asleep, and sunrise’s longer time scale amplifies the effect.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
Sunrise mode has been discussed, and there is even an early patch to implement it. It’s more tricky though, because the attiny timer is rather inaccurate. And the first patch doesn’t use sleep mode while waiting, so it uses quite a bit more power than necessary.

I had a feeling that the 64 minutes on my D4 may be 57 on yours. I think having a timer for 8 or programmable hours to light up could be a great alarm. I actually have an app on my phone that does this with light and sound, starting dim/faint, and slowly rising to wake me up. I like it alot.

I think what my wife meant was the sun it going down, so turn the lantern on in this new mode, much like sunrise, but the light would slowly get brigher. So when the ambient lighting is decreasing, the lantern light would increase. This would not have the same problem as the 8 or so hour timer, as it would start immediately, and a few minutes one way or the other would not really matter.

Practically speaking, most folks would just turn the light on and want it on. Me personally, I would definitely use it, likley more at home than not. I was just pleased my wife was thinking “light” thoughts. May convert another one yet. Wink

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

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How about no delay, make it like hitting the snooze button on the alarm, function being “wake me up gently” ramping up slowly from moonlight to full brightness over 5 to 10 minutes. If this were accessible with one button press after running sunset mode it might be a nice option.

Beam me up!

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