*BLF LT1 Lantern Project) (updated Nov,17,2020)

[fixed_it]

@Tom Tom

If the code source is given away for free (but, hopefully you get paid for adapting it to the device) that’s fine by me.

But hardware design, component selection, PCB layout, prototyping, testing, requires expensive tools, skills, knowledge, time, expert materials procurement etc. to do it properly, and is a rather rigid discipline. Not something to be dipped in and out of.

I’ve seen code written by engineers. So I can say with some authority that software is not something to be dipped in and out of either. Just because you don’t know how difficult it is to do correctly does not mean you can dismiss it as trivial. Good software is what makes or breaks a lot of products these days. For example, put bad software in a car and you no longer have a car.

[Lexel]

@Tom Tom

@ToyKeeper

@Tom Tom

If they simply re-purpose derivative works from others, that’s down to their conscience as to whether they also acknowledge their inspiration.

Conscience… and the license. Attribution is legally required in almost all free software licenses, because it’s a necessary part of making copyrights work.

There is no equivalent to the software model licences as regards hardware.

Which, I think, is why there is this reluctance to put up schematic diagrams and BOMs here. Most seem to be copies of application note circuits, when studied. At most we get a link to an OSHpark layout to reverse-engineer.

Circuit designs cannot be protected the same way as code, AFAIK. Certainly not the type of drivers we have, even the most esoteric, it has all been done before, they really are not very complicated.

By the way, with all the SW open-source models, has anyone ever exercised their rights if they thought they were being ripped off ? Perhaps they have, maybe they got somewhere, I don’t know, not my area.

And, to be frank, it is the hardware that costs actual money and is the most important thing for manufacturers to optimise. Just saving a few pence by removing or using lower spec. (but still satisfactory) components, or innovative circuit design, intelligently is of great interest to manufacturers.

If the code source is given away for free (but, hopefully you get paid for adapting it to the device) that’s fine by me.

But hardware design, component selection, PCB layout, prototyping, testing, requires expensive tools, skills, knowledge, time, expert materials procurement etc. to do it properly, and is a rather rigid discipline. Not something to be dipped in and out of.

Or done remotely, from a WiFi laptop anywhere in the world. You actually have to check in to the Lab and use the (very expensive) kit to see what’s actually going on.

Quite different from simply connecting a clip and having a few goes until you have something workable.

The PogoPin connector will be transformational I hope.

The pogo pin connector is already ordered by me
the topic is also public as well as the pattern for drivers

who says this is a fully open source project?
Even open source firmware or driver design can be under open source rights
for example forbid the commertial use of it without making an agreement with the programmer or designer

also open source for code means usually laying the source code open, but noone is forcing Toykeeper not just to make the hex file public

on the other side having just the Gerber uploaded to Oshpark means you do not get the design file
this is still the decision of the one who makes the design, if I do not want to post it the only way to get a driver is reverse engeneerring from a lantern
BLF do not nessesarely means open source for everything, or the guys developing not getting payed

But making it open source is a tribute for the community,
you forget how much effort in some things like Toykeepers firmwares is spent

like someone wrote if you are not happy with the driver make your own design and see how many hours you will spend,
even reverse engeneer a driver takes hours in the complexity of the current FET driver

[DBSAR]

@Lexel

@Tom Tom

@ToyKeeper

@Tom Tom

If they simply re-purpose derivative works from others, that’s down to their conscience as to whether they also acknowledge their inspiration.

Conscience… and the license. Attribution is legally required in almost all free software licenses, because it’s a necessary part of making copyrights work.

There is no equivalent to the software model licences as regards hardware.

Which, I think, is why there is this reluctance to put up schematic diagrams and BOMs here. Most seem to be copies of application note circuits, when studied. At most we get a link to an OSHpark layout to reverse-engineer.

Circuit designs cannot be protected the same way as code, AFAIK. Certainly not the type of drivers we have, even the most esoteric, it has all been done before, they really are not very complicated.

By the way, with all the SW open-source models, has anyone ever exercised their rights if they thought they were being ripped off ? Perhaps they have, maybe they got somewhere, I don’t know, not my area.

And, to be frank, it is the hardware that costs actual money and is the most important thing for manufacturers to optimise. Just saving a few pence by removing or using lower spec. (but still satisfactory) components, or innovative circuit design, intelligently is of great interest to manufacturers.

If the code source is given away for free (but, hopefully you get paid for adapting it to the device) that’s fine by me.

But hardware design, component selection, PCB layout, prototyping, testing, requires expensive tools, skills, knowledge, time, expert materials procurement etc. to do it properly, and is a rather rigid discipline. Not something to be dipped in and out of.

Or done remotely, from a WiFi laptop anywhere in the world. You actually have to check in to the Lab and use the (very expensive) kit to see what’s actually going on.

Quite different from simply connecting a clip and having a few goes until you have something workable.

The PogoPin connector will be transformational I hope.

The pogo pin connector is already ordered by me
the topic is also public as well as the pattern for drivers

who says this is a fully open source project?
Even open source firmware or driver design can be under open source rights
for example forbid the commertial use of it without making an agreement with the programmer or designer

also open source for code means usually laying the source code open, but noone is forcing Toykeeper not just to make the hex file public

on the other side having just the Gerber uploaded to Oshpark means you do not get the design file
this is still the decision of the one who makes the design, if I do not want to post it the only way to get a driver is reverse engeneerring from a lantern
BLF do not nessesarely means open source for everything, or the guys developing not getting payed

But making it open source is a tribute for the community,
you forget how much effort in some things like Toykeepers firmwares is spent

like someone wrote if you are not happy with the driver make your own design and see how many hours you will spend,
even reverse engeneer a driver takes hours in the complexity of the current FET driver

indeed well said all these projects take hours, days & months of work.

[sbslider]

So I spent time at lunch today updating the interest list. huey18 spent some time and effort automating this, but not all folks wanting a lantern are following his instructions for request, and also there is a problem with the listbot updating last I saw. Anyway, I added another 25 lights to the interest list since I took a short break, the total is up to 1004. I know there is an error of at least one, but hopefully everyone that wants one or more will get the code or whatever once this goes live. Don’t hold your breath for that, but things are moving these days.

interest list sorted by entry number

interest list sorted by user names

[TheShadowGuy]

I noticed I’m not on the list (I had expressed interest for one in post 1776). Could you add me for one?

[KevinZA1988]

[ToyKeeper]

@Lexel

how much effort in some things like Toykeepers firmwares is spent

This is something we can quantify, though. At a glance…

• The firmware repository has a total of 723 revisions, or 622,556 lines of patches (including everyone’s code, not just mine), committed over a period of about 4 years.
• According to sloccount, the FSM project has 9,171 lines of code, which it estimates would take one average programmer 2.05 years to write, or would take a team 8.4 months, for an estimated cost of $115,336 (or $276,808 including corporate overhead). I think it has a tendency to estimate high though.
• Some other projects according to sloccount (without overhead costs):
  • BLF-A6: 18 days, $2,846.
  • Bistro: 2 months, $9,268.
  • Crescendo: 2.8 months, $13,048.

Just a ballpark idea of the amount of effort involved in these things.

[Phlogiston]

@Lexel

Batteries get charged with 2A as we do not use the chips internal bus

OK, something to bear in mind if I’m only running the light with one cell - not all cells are rated for that.

Two or more cells should be fine, though. I haven’t seen any 18650s that wouldn’t accept a 1A charging current.

@ToyKeeper

@Lexel

how much effort in some things like Toykeepers firmwares is spent

[commercial cost estimates]

Just a ballpark idea of the amount of effort involved in these things.

Believe me, I appreciate those efforts. The majority of the lights I use nowadays run firmware ToyKeeper wrote. I’ve also benefitted from things like the BLF A17DD driver designed by Wight, and it looks like I’m going to benefit from Lexel’s driver for this lantern.

Thank you.

[sbslider]

@TheShadowGuy

I noticed I’m not on the list (I had expressed interest for one in post 1776). Could you add me for one?

I definitely missed you, sorry TheShadowGuy. You are on the list now.

[DBSAR]

@sbslider

@TheShadowGuy

I noticed I’m not on the list (I had expressed interest for one in post 1776). Could you add me for one?

I definitely missed you, sorry TheShadowGuy. You are on the list now.

I updated the OP interest list up to # 971 with the last .rtf update you sent me.

[Coscar]

@ToyKeeper

@Lexel

how much effort in some things like Toykeepers firmwares is spent

This is something we can quantify, though. At a glance…

• The firmware repository has a total of 723 revisions, or 622,556 lines of patches (including everyone’s code, not just mine), committed over a period of about 4 years.
• According to sloccount, the FSM project has 9,171 lines of code, which it estimates would take one average programmer 2.05 years to write, or would take a team 8.4 months, for an estimated cost of $115,336 (or $276,808 including corporate overhead). I think it has a tendency to estimate high though.
• Some other projects according to sloccount (without overhead costs):
  • BLF-A6: 18 days, $2,846.
  • Bistro: 2 months, $9,268.
  • Crescendo: 2.8 months, $13,048.

Just a ballpark idea of the amount of effort involved in these things.

Wow!!……. Is now a good time to ask for a loan?

[ToyKeeper]

@Coscar

Wow!!……. Is now a good time to ask for a loan?

Those are only estimates, the amount that a standardized tool thinks it would cost to develop the same thing at a traditional software company. But that’s not how the code was created.

Would be nice if I was actually paid what sloccount estimated though.

[DBSAR]

@ToyKeeper

@Coscar

Wow!!……. Is now a good time to ask for a loan?

Those are only estimates, the amount that a standardized tool thinks it would cost to develop the same thing at a traditional software company. But that’s not how the code was created.

Would be nice if I was actually paid what sloccount estimated though.

If i had the spare cash i would pay Lexel to build a prototype to sent to you for testing your firmware, but right now with my financial crisis i am in a red-zone for extra money to pay for anything.

[DavidEF]

@DBSAR

@ToyKeeper

@Coscar

Wow!!……. Is now a good time to ask for a loan?

Those are only estimates, the amount that a standardized tool thinks it would cost to develop the same thing at a traditional software company. But that’s not how the code was created.

Would be nice if I was actually paid what sloccount estimated though.

If i had the spare cash i would pay Lexel to build a prototype to sent to you for testing your firmware, but right now with my financial crisis i am in a red-zone for extra money to pay for anything.

I’m sure enough of us would pitch in to get it done if that’s what you guys wanted to do. I don’t have a lot of extra money to spend right now, but I would pitch in a little. If you want to get Lexel to make a driver board for TK to test with, just make it known and set up some way for us to contribute.

[BlueSwordM]

Same thing for me.

[DBSAR]

@DavidEF

@DBSAR

@ToyKeeper

@Coscar

Wow!!……. Is now a good time to ask for a loan?

Those are only estimates, the amount that a standardized tool thinks it would cost to develop the same thing at a traditional software company. But that’s not how the code was created.

Would be nice if I was actually paid what sloccount estimated though.

If i had the spare cash i would pay Lexel to build a prototype to sent to you for testing your firmware, but right now with my financial crisis i am in a red-zone for extra money to pay for anything.

I’m sure enough of us would pitch in to get it done if that’s what you guys wanted to do. I don’t have a lot of extra money to spend right now, but I would pitch in a little. If you want to get Lexel to make a driver board for TK to test with, just make it known and set up some way for us to contribute.

If Lexel can make the board, then ship it to Toykeeper to test the firmware, (then maybe i can test that in the V2 prototype,) then it would help refine and get it right before it goes into production.
Right now Barry had an issue being able to read the .gbr files from the software that Lexel uses to design the driver with, but the Engineers Barry mentioned they need the driver files in a .pcb format, ( a different driver design software) so that part is at a hiccup at the moment getting the driver design information from Lexel to Barry for his engineers to read and build a prototype driver.

[Coscar]

@ToyKeeper

@Coscar

Wow!!……. Is now a good time to ask for a loan?

Those are only estimates, the amount that a standardized tool thinks it would cost to develop the same thing at a traditional software company. But that’s not how the code was created.

Would be nice if I was actually paid what sloccount estimated though.

If you remember, I pushed for a ‘permanent’ Toykeeper donation thread but you politely refused…… I donated then but you definitely deserve more ‘beer’ for what you do.

[Coscar]

+1 DavidEF

@BlueSwordM

Same thing for me.

Me too …… lets get er done

[DavidEF]

@Coscar

+1 DavidEF

@BlueSwordM

Same thing for me.

Me too …… lets get er done

Well, we kinda need AT LEAST Lexel and ToyKeeper to agree, since they would be committing to doing the stuff, and somebody to set a price, so we know when we hit the goal.

[DBSAR]

@DavidEF

@Coscar

+1 DavidEF

@BlueSwordM

Same thing for me.

Me too …… lets get er done

Well, we kinda need AT LEAST Lexel and ToyKeeper to agree, since they would be committing to doing the stuff, and somebody to set a price, so we know when we hit the goal.

Indeed. Right now Toykeeper & Lexel are key members of the team helping to push this lantern project to become a reality.