New WildTrail (former LuckSun) BLF-D80v2 Sale is open.

[everydaysurvivalgear]

@Tom Tom

@everydaysurvivalgear

@Tom Tom

To be more positive, the D80 is a pleasing looking handy thing with unique characteristics, and could be brought up to date with a decent FET+n driver, e.g. a BLF/Lexar/Texas Ace, running whatever modern firmware that can still operate with a tail clickie, rather than an e-switch. 7135, or dual bank 7135 for efficiency and steady output at modest levels.

Preferably a straightforward simple intuitive UI that doesn’t require a crib sheet to comprehend. Perhaps a couple of programming options, but no more.

The original driver was very poor, it even had an incorrect value resistor that prevented the very weak FET from turning on fully, restricting tailcap current to 1A or less. DEL discovered this, and showed us how to improve it. However it still suffered from objectionable PWM, inefficiency at the lower levels and poorly spaced modes. It must be binned.

That short reflector and head is rather unique, and the concept should be retained.

Keep the tail clickie, don’t be seduced by side e-switches.

Together with a DTP copper MCPCB and a modern smaller LED (original was XML-2) with higher surface brightness for better throw. As supplied, with non-DTP Al MCPCB it was thermally challenged as soon as you tried to pep it up. Though the basics were there, integral shelf and twin screws to clamp down the MCPCB solidly.

However IIRC some who tried smaller LEDs at the time found that it was difficult to get the reflector/LED focussed satisfactorily and without artefacts in the beam, it is very sensitive to e.g. the thickness of the locating piece, and the large reflector hole, sized for the XML-2 doesn’t seem to work so well with smaller LEDs.

Perhaps the reflector could be re-tooled, just by reducing the size of the hole to suit smaller LEDs. Or it might require re profiling of the flatter part.

The beauty of the D80, to my mind, is the neat compact design, and it feels good in the hand. The workmanship and surface finish was great.

It makes a C8 feel crude and unwieldy.

However for an enthusiast it was no good, basically just a host to spend the same again on as a modding project. Not a well rounded BLF design that could be used as-is.

So, my list of essential changes would include:

1) New driver, in a standard size (e.g. 17mm)

2) DT|P copper MCPCB

3) Updated LED with reflector modified and tuned to it.

4) Body tube length optimised to take flat top, button top and even protected 18650 cells. Sadly this may require changing the stud contact on the driver (which I like very much, much better conductivity than any springs) for a spring.

5) Spring(s) to be good BeCu, e.g. Blue type. The days of faffing about with spring bypasses should be over, at least for BLF designs.

6) Short 18350 tube also to be available, with liner to also take 16340, CR123 etc. Some have cut down the 18650 one to make a very neat and handy package, it would be great to have this option.

7) Forget the latest fad for 21-70 cells, that would bulk it up and lose the neat compact nature of this, and further complicate use with 18650, spring lengths etc. And I’m pretty sure they will continue to be a fad, as well as the dimensions not being well standardised, making tolerancing of the tube and selection of compatible cells a guessing game. Having a 1” OD tube is important for some applications, it is the standard for many mounts. Yes, it might be possible to fit a 21-70 into a 1” tube, but I think you would lose the chunky grippy nubs and stout wall thickness that make the D80 so tactile.

8) Change the thread of the switch retaining ring to LH, so it doesn’t keep coming loose when you change cells. Convoy knew this years ago.

9) Optional FET remote tailswitch assembly for hunters, curly lead and pressure switch, with UI option to lock into turbo-only output. Maybe in a package with some flip on colour filters.

Give me 1-8, at a BLF price and I would buy a couple. But overall that would be a lot of re-tooling to get to the product that it should have been originally.

The actual BLF D80 was around before you where a member so i don’t know what model you got? It had a worked driver doing 4.5amps and a DTP MCPCB its a proper Noctigon board with specialized XML2 tints. The driver is fairly standard its a 20mm driver but you can make a BLF driver fit in with no mods. Maybe you bought the normal D80? Does yours have a Noctigon board?

I have been a member here far longer than the existence of the BLF D80, , but ducked out for a little while and re-joined under this new name. Fresh start.

I bought the BLF D80 as soon as it came out, one of the first delivered, and my description of mine is correct. No it did not have a Noctigon. No it did not have “specialised tints”, just a choice of tint with no binning specified.

It should have had a Noctigon, but mine did not, I guess it was a mongrel using a standard D80 part instead of the BLF component. I was unlucky.

The driver, as for many, did not perform properly, due to an incorrect resistor fitted. Even when corrected, the two SOT 23 FETs are weak. Works ok with a full cell at 4.2V, but as the voltage drops the on-resistance becomes the limiting factor.

You could refresh your memory at the original thread. Things started unravelling about 2000 posts in.

GB BLF LuckySun D80-SE Need long tubes? -3/3/16

I’ve remembered that mine did not have MCPCB securing screws either, that was a mod I did, because I was doubtful that pressure from the reflector was adequate, having suffered thermal issues with my Al mcpcb.

It would be good if they could be included on a new design.

Sorry for any confusion.

DEL discovered that the FET gate drive resistor was far too high a value, meaning that, in combination with the gate pulldown resistor, the FET gate was only being driven with half cell voltage, not enough to turn it on fully particularly at lower cell voltages, i.e real life. Testing torches only with fully charged cells is unrealistic. Though it seems to be the norm, ie. topped off strong cell in perfect condition, straight to turbo, peak lumen/candela/tail current readings for a few seconds, job done. As for real-world performance …

Perhaps that was corrected in later builds. Otherwise fixable with a solder splash, or a much lower value resistor.

But the driver was crude and the two paralleled FETs poor. Poorly spaced modes, objectionable visible PWM in lower modes, no low voltage protection.

First thing to replace. I think we are agreed on that.

I could not get a 17mm FET+1 to fit, except with an adapter PCB, the cavity on mine was more like 21mm. I think that reduced to 20mm later in the run.

I suppose the basic driver being so under-developed and cheaply made helped in hitting the selling price. The firmware tailoring for BLF was half-hearted, PWM could have been made higher frequency, modes could have been better spaced, and somehow the original LVP disappeared. This should have been picked up during prototype evaluation.

All this is fixable for V2.

I am not trying to knock the original, it was what it was, and is history. It could be brought up to date, this time with much more attention to detail, and more rigorous evaluation of prototypes.

When looking to refresh this, it is wise to also understand some of the history of the original, it was far from perfect.

My first one had the short tube could only use unprotected cells in it and none of mine had screws to hold the MCPCB in place but i don’t think the Noctigon boards have space for that.

[Muto]

Post 2410 in that thread shows the resistor mod that DEL did and why he did it;

GB BLF LuckySun D80-SE Need long tubes? -3/3/16

3/3/16 GearBest has blown through the extended tubes they stocked for protected batteries. LuckySun can make some more, but the price will be higher for this run…I’m guessing around $5. They need interest in quite a few to make a run…guessing around 200, so I am making a list here for it. Please let me know if you want one or more. Thanks, krono 2/2/16 GearBest is getting more stock of the BLF D80-SE! GB codes still good! They have longer tubes, but they are mixed in with the other stock. I…

[RobertB]

Mine has the Noctigon, but the shorter tube, which I don’t care about since I don’t use protected batteries anyway. An updated 17mm driver should be easy enough for them to do. Other than that, this seems like a well made host, and very comfortable in the hand.

[DavidEF]

I’d rather have a Osram “White Flat” emitter (or the new Boost HX, if available) and a decent linear driver with max output tuned to best performance of the emitter. Make the head a tiny bit longer, so the reflector can be a bit deeper. Get the focus right for best throw (obviously). Don’t change the battery size. Keep the 18650. Good idea to use the Blue™ springs.

[Tom_Tom]

Some background to the driver problems, and how DEL improved it with a simple mod.:

GB BLF LuckySun D80-SE Need long tubes? -3/3/16

For info: My tests were at 4.2 V. I measured 1.9 V drive at the FET gates before the modification. I did not bother to test with lower voltages. I did check the diode. It is a Schottky (Vf = 0.25 V). In post 2048 OscarM posted good quality photos that also show two 15k resistors.

Nevertheless these FETs were poor, even with the gate driven with a full cell (4.2V minus Schottky diode drop, and sag/internal resistance) after DEL’s mod. At real world cell voltages they are far higher resistance.

See DEL’s graphs at GB BLF LuckySun D80-SE Need long tubes? -3/3/16 - #2417 by DEL and GB BLF LuckySun D80-SE Need long tubes? -3/3/16 - #2426 by DEL

As supplied, getting only half cell voltage, minus Schottky drop, with say a cell at 3.7 or even 3.5V, sagging further under load, they were barely operating. That’s ignoring the poor tail spring used.

For comparison, a decent FET as used in a good BLF FET+1 is in the 5 milliohm class, at all cell voltages.

I suspect that prototype evaluation was only ever done with full cells. Also by others here. Not realistic.

Then there was the suspicion that the prototypes supplied to Dale etc. had superior emitters, production units from lower bins. He could never reproduce the results with production units. Even then, they never took the current that would be expected with a good FET.

The PWM was about 150 Hz. Horrid. And maxed. at 98% on turbo, yet another loss.

Then there was the nonsense with the tailcap switch retaining ring. Originally it had a shoulder on it to contact the tube, but they were sloppy, forever coming loose, and even failing to hold together at-all. My early one suffered this. So instead of doing it properly and going to a LH thread and making the threads fit properly they removed the shoulder and cranked them in super-tight, nearly to the point of stripping. But in removing the shoulder they forgot to lengthen the tube to compensate. Hence all the short-tube problems, and the need to make longer replacement ones, at extra cost. Famously Kronological “totally missed this”.

I just glued mine together with threadlock, which probably makes the switch unmaintainable.

Like I said, attention to detail is everything, as the FW3A team have found. Sometimes it seems like one step forward, two back.

If Lucky Sun can step their game, this would be a nice refresh. The original team sometimes expressed frustration at communication difficulties and un-discussed changes, for what should have been a straightforward tweak of an existing product, basically LED, MCPCB, driver UI changes, new logo, job done.

For this to be good, I see it needing a lot more work, but worthwhile.

[Tom_Tom]

@DavidEF

I’d rather have a Osram “White Flat” emitter (or the new Boost HX, if available) and a decent linear driver with max output tuned to best performance of the emitter. Make the head a tiny bit longer, so the reflector can be a bit deeper. Get the focus right for best throw (obviously). Don’t change the battery size. Keep the 18650. Good idea to use the Blue™ springs.

Yes, a modern emitter with a lower Vf (seems to be the trend), together with a linear driver, even just an inexpensive stack of 7135s, would be better.

Lower Vf. meaning more consistent and efficient performance as the cell droops in real-world use, efficiency actually improving as the cell discharges and the LED Vf. vs cell Voltage transfer characteristic reaches optimum. Unlike FET drivers.

Reflector redesign and fine tuning essential to match emitters. This one is very finnicky to get right if you try a different LED, without obvious beam artefacts. It is already struggling to achieve balance of throw vs. spill, being so shallow.

Remember throw comes only from the reflector and the sideways projection of the LED. The spill is what shoots out of the front of the LED, missing the reflector entirely. Therefore precise LED characteristics will be very important.

A deeper wide reflector makes this much easier. And better. But that would not be a D80.

[AguassissiM]

I`m way too green to have any useful suggestions however put me on the list for one whenever they are ready.

johnkey68 that is a very nicely composed picture.

[DavidEF]

@Tom Tom

@DavidEF

I’d rather have a Osram “White Flat” emitter (or the new Boost HX, if available) and a decent linear driver with max output tuned to best performance of the emitter. Make the head a tiny bit longer, so the reflector can be a bit deeper. Get the focus right for best throw (obviously). Don’t change the battery size. Keep the 18650. Good idea to use the Blue™ springs.

Yes, a modern emitter with a lower Vf (seems to be the trend), together with a linear driver, even just an inexpensive stack of 7135s, would be better.

Lower Vf. meaning more consistent and efficient performance as the cell droops in real-world use, efficiency actually improving as the cell discharges and the LED Vf. vs cell Voltage transfer characteristic reaches optimum. Unlike FET drivers.

Reflector redesign and fine tuning essential to match emitters. This one is very finnicky to get right if you try a different LED, without obvious beam artefacts. It is already struggling to achieve balance of throw vs. spill, being so shallow.

Remember throw comes only from the reflector and the sideways projection of the LED. The spill is what shoots out of the front of the LED, missing the reflector entirely. Therefore precise LED characteristics will be very important.

A deeper wide reflector makes this much easier. And better. But that would not be a D80.

Well, I was just asking for it to be a bit deeper. Don’t change the aesthetic too much, as others have said. I was never a fan of the Aesthetic of the D80, but I will probably buy it if they end up using the “White Flat” or the Boost HX emitters. I want a super-throwy hand-size light just to impress people with. I’m considering getting a GT Mini and/or Micro, but I’d be happier with one of these Osram emitters, perfectly focused in a well-designed reflector. :money_mouth_face:

[Tom_Tom]

The white flat could do it I think. Along with the other flat surfaced emitters that shoot light out sideways in a Lambertian manner.

Once they have a dome on, it changes for the worse (for throw). Hence all the de-doming discussions.

Of course there is far more to it than that.

But, fundamentally, the shallow reflector is unlikely to be the best for throw. Plenty of other, better, already available options for that, you have mentioned some.

It is a compromise, not really a great thrower despite what some would have you believe, more flood than I need. But that’s inevitable considering the dimensions.

If you have not held a D80 you may not appreciate the aesthetic. In the hand it is very nice (I think). Don’t be put off just by photos.

[cabfrank]

It is great in hand. The reflector is great too. I have one with Bistro and a MTN-17DDm driver. It works wonderfully. No need to reinvent the wheel here.

[hank]

Get the battery tube length right. I recall I had to buy a longer one separately to use my button top cells.
And I haven’t figured out what to do with the old slightly short battery tube.

[Streamer]

Well heck, I must be the lucky one. Added DD driver and can’t complain about it at all. But then, I’m not a perfectionist.
The fault finders will find fault, even while in Paradise. But, that is what it’s all about here at BLF.

[Tom_Tom]

@Streamer

Added DD driver and can’t complain about it at all.:+1:

There you have it. It just needed a decent driver, the other niggles could be fixed up, with patience and perseverance, and some frustration.

Should not have been necessary for a BLF special, these are supposed to be well developed and good as-is, not the beginnings of a modding project, unless that’s your interest.

But it was a 2015 tweak of an earlier design, and things have moved on a lot since then, so a proper refresh could bring it up to date nicely and make it relevant again, rather than just a warm over of the original. Working properly it is a nice torch.

Several other BLF designs were right first time, live on still, have more than repaid their manufacturers’ faith in BLF engineering input and rigorousness, in continuing sales, and are still highly recommendable.

This V2 could do the same. Worth the effort.

I’ll duck out now, I’ve said more than enough. If the OP wants to pursue this I’d be glad to help where I can, behind the scenes. I’d like to see it succeed.

[Muto]

If they want to use a deeper reflector for some of the small die emitters on the market now they could just design a taller bezel and extend the new reflector into the bezel.
This way a new casting of the head would not need to be made.

Speaking of bezels, how about optional Foy bezels? Stainless of course.
Just a thought.
Also if they are rebooting the concept, how about some new colors?
That Olive drab that Klarus has might be nice and maybe some Reds, Blues.

Laterrrr
Keith

[TheOnlyDocc]

I could not sleep so i wrote with my LS contact. Like it was said in other projects language is a huge barrier. And LS is not a huge company. So i do not think it would work out well to go with a Osram throw led + getting a reflector made (with prototypes a lot of testing . . . . . .).
If we had a contact there that could explain everything in their language i would go for it.
The D80 is having good throw and it would fit nice. But as it is i see way to much potential for a crash and burn.
After this short time i would say most people like the light and would be happy if they could get a fixed up version (tailstand, tube length, springs,driver,reflector quality increased and led hole size reduced. . . .) with new internals, UI. . .

[JaredM]

To me, this type of question is a slippery slope. How much of the original can you change before it becomes something entirely new? (like an old old rock band that has none of the original members but still carries the same name )

I’d say refine details only if this is a D80.2 think-tank

Things like:

Improved reflector geometry/finish
Better springs
Double o-rings
Thermal management
New anodizing
Latest firmware/driver
LED options (for the non-modders)

[pirate_joe_22]

blf d 80 is one of the very best special editions ever….
it looks great and has a great beam
improve it to what it should have been the first time
new driver, new led, dtp and good springs

at the same time, start working on a 21700 model with new xhp led

[djozz]

@pirate joe 22

blf d 80 is one of the very best special editions ever….
it looks great and has a great beam
improve it to what it should have been the first time
new driver, new led, dtp and good springs

at the same time, start working on a 21700 model with new xhp led

[Satan (Satan@103TFS)]

Prefer 21700 too for me.

[TheOnlyDocc]

I think i found a way to improve heat dissipation (without changing the look). But i only have my tablet with me in hospital. So i search for someone that can help me to make a pic or 3d model to show BLF (and LuckySun if most people think its a good idea) what i have in mind.
If you want to help please PM me.