And may I say funkychateau, you are doing a masterful job of that; in both this & the main FW3A thread too I might add. Reviving the discussion every month or two & dissappearing for a while after the lively debates.
Masterful my friend⌠masterful. :+1: . ⌠But⌠:person_facepalming:
Iâd argue that that backward compatibility shows the opposite: there was a clearly defined physical standard, not the original USB port dimensions and also a slightly different one that was hacked together for no reason, creating the actual compatibility issues.
If a light can use both thatâs cool, but button tops in general are a problem looking for a solution.
I have some protected button tops that I should not have ordered. Iâm also quite new to all of this. Can you point me to an article or video that gives instructions on how to change these to unprotected flat tops?
Iâm also interested in this if it can be done right and safe. I tought it was impossible to do so because they are spotwelded. But I m known to be wrong on occasions
It really isnât safe for someone without a LOT of Li-ion experience to try and remove a spot welded button top. Very easy to short out the cell and that can be bad. The safe option is to get new flat top cells for the devices that use them and use the button tops in lights that require them, like the D18, Meteor, Q8, and so onâŚ
But, itâs pretty easy to remove the button, which is just spot-welded with a nickle strip to the positive terminal of the ârealâ flat-top unprotected cell. As long as the wrap and insulation ring is protecting the cell from shorting, then just take a pair of pliers and rip off the nickle strip. That will leave some bumps on the battery from the spot-weld. Take a dremel tool, and very gently sand them away. Done.
Of course, my advice is not to do that, unless youâre very sure of what youâre doing. At the very least, keep a bucket of water nearby to throw the cell in if things go wrong. And then run so you donât breath any of the very toxic fumes from a lithium-ion fire.
Not all are done that way, some are literally spot welded in three places around the outer edge of the button. Those are much more difficult to remove if you donât know what youâre doing.
I donât have any links, sorry. If you are good with tools it should not be too hard.
First, you have to understand that the positive and negative part of the battery are very close, so caution has to be used to not touch both at the same time with anything metal. If you do, you might get a spark. No big deal, but try to avoid that. Discharging the battery to 3v or so also improves safety.
In the picture below, the positive is the red part and the negative is everything dark gray, the vast majority of the exterior. There is only the gold layer (plastic insulator) that keeps them seperate.
Button tops are stacked onto the red piece. Sometimes they are spot welded, sometimes not. Sometimes they have a longer metal strip underneath that is spot welded on each end. There are a lot of variations.
Here is a 30Q with a button top spot welded in place. It had a clear wrapper covering the stock pink wrapper. I cut away the clear wrapper and used a small screwdriver to pry the button top off.
I did not need to add a new wrapper, but I do keep some handy.
Here is a different 30Q that I removed the button from that had the metal strip under it. I cut itâs clear wrapper off, lifted the button top and then used pliers to carefully pull the spot welded strap off the battery. You might need to used a small grinder or Dremel to get rid of any burrs from the spot welds.
You might want to practice on a junk button top battery just to get an understanding of itâs construction before trying it on a good battery. Always be careful to not cause a short circuit. You also might want to use an extra piece of insulating plastic to put over the edge of the cell to make it easier to pry the button top off.
LOL Teacher, I can handle a little sarcastic jab. But it does seem that I keep responding to the same notions over and over, from new folks that havenât read previous posts. And if I disappear for a few days, or even a week, itâs not part of a plan. I just have a pretty busy life offline. I retired four years ago, and Iâm still waiting for the âleisureâ part to kick in.
However, this notion that we should never accommodate button tops because doing so encourages a bastard battery configuration that âshouldnât even existâ (because the e-cig community doesnât use them) is a new angle âŚ
Itâs my understanding that there is no lithium metal in lithium-ion cells. So, it shouldnât react with water. Well, thatâs my understanding, but Iâve never tried it.
Lithium primary cells do contain lithium metal, so I could see how those might react.
And responding quite well I might add funkychateau. If you are not an attorney⌠I think you could be. And probably a darn good one tooâŚ. ⌠:+1:
Heck, I do not ever use buttontops unless a light absolutely requires them ; but your âargumentsâ (reasons) even got me to thinking for a bit. Then I shook off your mesmerizing & got back on track.
Not my discussion so excuse the interruption, and I am not a chemist by trade, but I wouldnât be taking that chance either. Elemental lithium is highly reactive, like you said, but many lithium-ions are too. My recollection from Chem1212, which granted was a long time ago, is that the lithium ions are going to react with the water pretty quickly, resulting in some sort of lithium oxide while releasing lots of hydrogen gas. This would be highly exothermic too, so lots of heat. Hydrogen gas + heat = bad news.
Besides that, I think the original premise here was that a bucket of water could be used to âput outâ or otherwise contain a runaway li-ion cell, and thatâs a faulty position from the outset. You wonât be stopping that internal lithium reaction with water. Its not going to stop until its out fuel/energy. So even if the water doesnât make it worse (which Iâm not convinced is true), its not really going to help either. Youâll still have a runaway li-ion cell on your handsâŚjust now its wet.
So please, anyone who comes along reading this and decides to take some side cutters and a dremel to their stack of 18650s for any reason, do it outside. Away from everything you value. Because if something goes wrong you really only have one recourse â run away and let it burn itself out. A dead brown spot in the lawn is going to be best case here, I think.
Oops, I was thinking of removing just button tops. Itâs a little more complicated removing protection circuits. Some circuits are on the positive end and some are on the negative/bottom end
For these types of cells you might need new wrappers and a heat gun/hair dryer.
You first have to carefully remove the outer wrapper. Be cautious around that metal strip running up the side.
Once I removed all of the extra circuitry and deburred any areas that were sticking out or sharp, I added a new wrapper to it.
Could be. But, if the battery is already on fire, itâs burning already.
No, I never meant to imply that. Lithium-ion cells contain their own oxidizer, so they donât need oxygen to burn. Throwing it in a bucket of water hopefully contains the fire, and will help cool the cell. The latter being important if itâs just getting very very hot and hasnât caught fire yet.
Anyway, donât mess with cells if youâre not smart about it. But letâs not overstate the risk. The only way youâre going to cause a fire is if you puncture the cell. An accidental 1-second short isnât going to do it.
Remember the times when the Airlines would not deliver Li-ion cells? Because of fires on planes? This was because of the vape folks ordering liquidâs for their vape unit and Li-ion cells together⌠when packaged poorly the containers of liquid got broken and the wet Li-ion cells combusted⌠in the cargo hold of the airplane. Wet Li-ion cells are just bad news. period.
Donât teach people HOW to mangle a potentially lethal cell, teach them NOT to.
Or be sure your bank account is padded so when they screw up and sue you for the damages you can handle it.