26650 Batteries

kramer:

All great questions, but I think somebody who actually passed a chemistry class is going to have to answer on the description order thing Smile. My assumption is that both of the ones you mention are collectively referred to as Lithium-Manganese Rechargeables (IMR), but I could be totally wrong. As to who makes the underlying cells, it's a mystery at this point. Sure wish Panasonic/Sanyo or whomever would get into the 26650 game....

Might be worth an email to Lighthound and Batteryspace to try and get some answers.

Panasonic is in the 26650 game for some time, but we have to understand that none of these companies care about flashlights.

Don't care about flashlights? Blasphemy! Wink

I'm sure you are right. In my research I found several other apparent manufacturers of 26650 size cells, but they have different uses (such as ebs) and voltage ratings, like this one: http://www.a123systems.com/products-cells-26650-cylindrical-cell.htm

Panasonic have 26650 for long time but only with 2650mAh, 4.2v to 2.5V. There a new version with 3300mAh, 4.2V to 3.0V.

I uncovered a bunch of history behind 26650/700 size IMR (or LMR) cells from E-moli (or "emoli")... and their development for use in cordless power tools. Most notably the Miluakee 28V line. Some of that goes back to ~2007, so these cells have been out there for quite a while.

I could not uncover a raw-cell retailer for this manufacturer, or discharge curve graphs. It appears most hobby-ists were harvesting cells from power tool packs... My head started to spin at that point!!! Oi-yoy-yoy (for lack of a better word).

To make it even more confusing!!!, the pictures on IOS now show ICR26650E (XSL). I swear yesterday the pictures were INR26650E. On top of that, The pictures on CQG now read INR26650E, but the ones I received from them were ICR26650E.

Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do....

Hank, if you are reading this thread like I suggested in my email to you, this needs to be sorted out. Us BLFers would like to know what exactly we are purchasing.

The first ones I got from them where the INR's (the better kind), my next order they came as ICR's even though they listed them as INR's AND get this they raised the price of them by $1 each for a Worse battery. So now I have a mixture of both, which means I can't use them in series for other lights. Vendors ought to learn about the products they actually Sell.....and to think I paid extra for the lesser quality batteries and can't even use them the way I intended to.

The have been not proven worse that is a baseless assumption. Let's see the reviews.

But Yes the cell mixing in series is true, should be clear.

BetweenRides typed.

"To make it even more confusing!!!, the pictures on IOS now show ICR26650E (XSL). I swear yesterday the pictures were INR26650E. On top of that, The pictures on CQG now read INR26650E, but the ones I received from them were ICR26650E.

Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do....

Hank, if you are reading this thread like I suggested in my email to you, this needs to be sorted out. Us BLFers would like to know what exactly we are purchasing."

Yes you are correct. They have again changed battery types overnight. (Well, overnight here). Tennis anyone.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-KEYGOS-IMR-26650-3-7V-4800mAh-Lithium-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-Cell-/270903927666?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item3f1321e372

Keygos IMR?

And some cheap cells

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-26650-3-7V-4800mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-for-torch-laser-pointer-new-/270925125419?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item3f1465572b

The desription on the second item makes interesting reading.


Color: Black
Length: 30cm/ 11.8; Width: 23cm/9" (see above picture)
Weight: 35g
Size: one size fit all

I think you misunderstood my point. My concern was for the safety of the person conducting the experiment. A dead short is the worst way to test even a "safe" chem cell. Well, 2nd worst after forms of physical abuse like puncture, crush, incinerate.

Putting worse or better aside as a matter of opinion, or as a measure of technical specifications, the one thing that I can't stress enough here is the safety issue. Plain and simple - LiCo chem cells are the loser by a landslide when it comes to safety. For me, that's reason enough to avoid them. Accidents happen, and if an accident happens to one of my lights, I want to be sure it doesn't have LiCo chem cells in it when it does.

Here's a thread worth at least skimming. The accident happened with safe chem LiMn cells, 18650 in size, and the power of the explosion was still devastating. The owner was very fortunate to not have been holding the light when it happened - he surely would have been mutilated if not killed. Horrors aside, there's some great info buried within that thread, post #129 especially.

The takeaway for me is that among all the Li-Ion rechargeables, only LiFePO4 chem is safe from explosion and all Li chem cells that fail and vent will release extremely toxic poisonous gasses, "safe chem" varieties included. That's scary enough. Why any company even manufactures LiCo cells in 26650 size, with PCB or not, is beyond me. I will never own one. Re-reading that thread makes me want to reconsider all my IMR cells and convert everything to LiFePO4 or NiMH.

Well, I'll be danged.

I'm in a couple of different discussions about this INR/ICR thing. I noticed the different batteries right away on my second IO order. I have 7 King Kongs; 4 INRs and 2 ICRs. My first order included 3 INRs (free shipping with a third battery) and the second order included 2 INRs and 2 ICRs. I have no idea how many times I mixed the two in my JM05 because I naturally assumed the ICRs were from a newer batch or something. Now I discover they are entirely different chemistries?

IO now says, "The INR26650E have been discontinued" and "The King Kong cells are now ICR26650E." And, they're $9.47. So, they've been replaced with an inferior chemistry?

Ahh well, I guess it's not that big a deal. Would have been nice to know. I bet Hank knew as much as we did . . . or as much as we used to know. There's some pretty intelligent fellows around here. I can't keep up with larnin' like ya'll got.

imnotworthyFoy

Oh, you're worthy all right.

I responded to your post in "what you got today", but I referred you right back to here. Just be sure you don't mix the different chemistry cells in the same light and you should be good. I believe ICR is just a bigger version of your standard 18650 cell. What bothers me is the mixing and matching on the sellers websites. I want accurate descriptions and above all I want to know what I am buying - don't like the lottery approach to supply and demand.

Tech, thanks for posting that link. I've read through it before and have to point out that this situation is not your standard 1 cell light. The user bought a used multi-cell light with used batteries that were over-discharged and out of balance. I think we should all respect what we are using, but let's not get all alarmist about it either. Standard one-cell applications are still inherently safe, if you respect and treat your batteries safely (Don has a famous quote about seagulls and fish that should be referred to). On the other hand, I'm kind of agreeing with you about converting to safer chemistries in the future. We just need more options to choose from.

What dou you think?

Are these cells realy IMR?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-KEYGOS-IMR-26650-3-7V-4800mAh-Lithium-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-Cell-/270903927666?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item3f1321e372

Hi, nekdo:

Sorry to have not responded sooner. I've been trying to do some research on these two cells and I'm not comfortable listing them as valid options. In general, unless you give an ebay seller a 'trusted' rating here on BLF, I would not recommend buying batteries from them. It is too easy to slap a label on anything and sell it, so at least with some of our known flashlight resellers, we have some manner of recourse (IOS has changed two listings after inquiry). As we are discovering with this ICR/INR/IMR saga, even that is no guarantee. To be honest, I almost didn't link the DX Trustfire versions in post #1 because of the reported fake 26650's they sell.

Some bad experiences over at CPF with Keygos and Palight 26650 batteries. They appear to be fakes. I can find no OEM sellers - only ebay. The IMR version you link to is IMR in the title of the listing only. The pictures of the cell mention nothing about IMR and the product description lists it as Li-ion. Also, IMR do not usually come with protection circuits. I doubt this ebay seller even knows what IMR is. The link to the second blue cells on ebay also has an inflated capacity and lists very few real specs. I would not trust these to be real new cells either, but if someone wants to be the guinea pig and test them, feel free.

Something to remember: the highest reported capacity of regular Li-ion(Cobalt) 26650 cells is 4000mAh. IMR and LiMnNiCo other variations do not have as high a capacity, so if someone is claiming 4000 - 5000mAh capacity for an IMR, they are not being truthful. I suspect this is one of the reasons IOS no longer carries the MNKE 4000mAh IMR and just yesterday removed the King Kong INR 4000mAh listing - when called on it, they can't support the claim. It should be noted that the ICR King Kong is a well-rated battery, however. My issue with them on this is the mix and match of two chemistries and non-disclosure in the product listing. To Hank's credit at IOS, he will fix anything in error that is pointed out to him and do it very quickly.

I haven't seen this one mentioned.

http://www.manafont.com/product_info.php/marsfire-protected-26650-37v-5000mah-rechargeable-liion-battery-1pcset-p-9729

Thanks, I'll add it.