I ordered the Keygos pair, we'll see how long they take to get here and if they're any good.
The ones you have linked to are advertised as 3V, not 3.7V, and verified as such by inquiry to the seller. Presumably, those are LiFePO4 variety - not good for a single cell light unless you have a boost circuit to step-up the voltage.. That aside, I did purchase some 3.7V Moli 26650 cells from an eBay seller (fdk-cn), and they were verified via email exchange by Moli as genuine (excerpt from email exchange below).
Moli has manufacturing facilities in China and likely sold these cells to other companies for assembly into packs shortly after the cells were manufactured back in 2002. These cells appear to have never been used and are now being sold as loose cells by the third party without cooperation from Moli. About the cells, despite being 10 years old, my first three work great, and I have 6 more on the way. I have not verified the full 3.3AH capacity (the seller incorrectly underestimates capacity as 2800mAH), but can say that even ~half way into the cell's discharge, it still drives a 4.2A regulated single XM-L light to the fullest.
Here's an extract from the email I exchanged with someone from Moli about these cells. The blue text is from the person at E-One Moli and the black text is mine.
Mr.[masked] ,
Those are indeed MOLICEL's built in Canada, on May 30th of 2002.
The labeling on those cells are consistant with other cells from that era.
They do indeed look new and unused and show no indications of ever being put into a pack.
They may have been overstock that was sold by our customer to a third party who is now selling them on ebay.
From a visual inspection of the cells, they appear to be spinel cells made in Canada.
The original capacity was 3.3Ah.
Best regards,
[masked].
-----Original Message-----
From: [masked]
Sent: March 23, 2012 1:10 PM
To: [masked]
Subject: Re: counterfeit Moli cells on eBay?
Sent: March 23, 2012 1:10 PM
To: [masked]
Subject: Re: counterfeit Moli cells on eBay?
Mr. [masked],
Thank you so much for your reply. I am pleased to learn that you are aware that Moli cells are being sold loose on eBay and taking action in the interest of public safety.
Attached are photos of the cells that I've received. As you can see, the heatshrink on the cell and the cans both look new and unused, despite the cell being an older model (2008?). I also noticed that in pics of a similar model cell, IMR-26700A, there is a . between FSPE and 7 (FSPE.7xxxx), whereas on my IMR-26650C, there is no . (FSPE70038). Not a concern?
Thank you for taking the time to examine these photos.
Kind regards,
[masked]
From: [masked]
To: [masked]
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: counterfeit Moli cells on eBay?
Good day Mr. [masked],
Thank you for your valid concerns with respect to MOLICEL brand products showing up on EBay.
E-One Moli Energy Corp. is aware of the issues and is actively looking into how and when these products ended up for sale on online auction sites.
Many of the cells that we see on these sites are legitimate products and not counterfeit but are not being sold with our authorization.
Many of these cells are over ten years old and may have changed hands several times in that period as our records stop at the companies that we sold them to initially.
We have found that some of the cells advertised online are cells that have been recovered from recycled battery packs and yet others are 'new' cells that were never used by the companies that had purchased them and since then have been sold as scrap or liquidated when those companies folded.
If you would send me a photo of the label of the cells you have purchased, I can verify the lot ID printed on it to see what the cell actually is. With regards to the chemistry, E-One Moli Energy never produced and 26650 size cells using the LiCo chemistry.
For your general information, we have also found that some of the 'high energy' cells for sale on sites like ebay are also old cells that have been repackaged as new. We found a 5000mAh cell was actually a 1300mAh repackaged cell, they did not even take our label off, they just put another label over top of it. We have found this to be the case with every other major manufacturers cells ending up relabeled and resold as 'new' on ebay.
This is a problem that is being discussed at the highest levels of our corporation and also all other manufacturers and also governments and regulatory bodies.
At this point there is very little that we can do as sites like Ebay only let users post information, they do not actually control or vet the vendors and their wares.
We are approaching the problem from the point of the freight and air carriers and making the point that it is their responsibility to make sure that all Lithium-Ion cells that are offered for transport have the proper regulatory certificates in place.
Thank you again for your concerns, please be assured that we are working on the problems.
Best regards,
[masked]
Inside Sales, E-One Moli Energy (Canada) Ltd.
20,000 Stewart Crescent, Maple Ridge, B.C. Canada, V2X 9E7
Ph:[masked] Fx:[masked]
20,000 Stewart Crescent, Maple Ridge, B.C. Canada, V2X 9E7
Ph:[masked] Fx:[masked]
-----Original Message-----
From: [masked]
Sent: March 22, 2012 7:28 PM
To: molicel
Subject: counterfeit Moli cells on eBay?
From: [masked]
Sent: March 22, 2012 7:28 PM
To: molicel
Subject: counterfeit Moli cells on eBay?
I'm seeing a LOT of Moli IMR-26650C cells for sale from China on eBay. Is E-One Moli aware of any counterfeiting going on, or is there a likely explanation for how your older model cells are ending up for sale on eBay looking brand new?
I have purchased three out of curiosity, but have no way to verify that the the cells that I received are genuine or not. Is there a non-destructive way to verify the chemical composition of the cells that I have received? My main concern is that they might be cells of the more volatile LiCo chemistry masquerading as cells of the safer LiMnO2 chemistry.
E-One Moli should contact eBay about any counterfeiting activity, especially if the safety of the consumer is at risk.
You have a.. 10 years old cells that work great?
I've heard from some sources that Li-Ion's lose half of their capacity in just 3 years. So I guess this doesn't applies to LiMn kind, only the LiCo one then?
I thought about those emoli cells on ebay, then the other BLF'er PM'd me with that very useful information from emoli. I think 10 years is just too old for me to chance... maybe some day I might take a gamble. But not right now.
Funny you mentioned this because I am retiring some 26650 cells I bought in NOV 2009. They self discharge very fast, and are down to about 1/3 their original storage capacity. So I think these have seen their day. Looking back, they never really held a charge the way a healthy Lithium-based cell chemistry should at / above ~4.15V. (Panasonic CGR18650 cells are my baseline for comparison, and will remain pegged at ~4.15V for several months at least). So I think these 26650s had a high internal resistance from day-1, it was masked partially by my moderate current draw applications.
Looking back at my Battery space order history these old cells were described as:
LiMnNi Rechargeable 26650 Cell: 3.7V 4000 mAh, 10A rated 14.8Wh
Just ran a 1A discharge test 5 minutes ago.... barely 1300mah from 4.2-3.15V at 1A, so these are ready for the recycle bin.
I've got the same BatterySpace 4AH IMR 26650. I barely used it, never deep cycled it, and only charged it ~4 times. I can honestly say that in direct comparison to that cell, the 10 yr. old Moli cells outperform it, driving my single cell lights to a higher current when half spent than it can on a full charge. I think the saving grace of the Moli cells is that they are truly high quality cells, made by arguably the best (or one of the best two) power tool LiMn cell manufacturer( s ), were never used at all, and were stored properly. Cheap cells degrade on their own over time much faster than quality cells. In my mind, I'd rather have 10 yr old Molis in mint condition than brand new TrustFires any day. At $6 each, I think I gambled and one. I just hope the next six are the same as the first three.
Me too, although I topped them off much more than that. I used them very carefully knowing I paid $15 each. I was never really impressed with these 26650 cells. Capacity was originally in the ~3900mah ball park so they did OK in that regard... but that was the only thing they did well. Current delivery was so-so, and self-discharge characteristics were terrible. I hope these newer ones are better. We'll see. So I am looking forward to your impressions too on your latest moli batch. I haven't ruled them out completely yet either, and the lighthound cell is still on my radar.
Yeah I agree... an older high quality cell can easily out-perform a new low quality one. Thats why this thread is so important for those of us into the larger 26650 size. Theres just not much real data out there (as compared to 18650).
And thinking deeper about it, if 10 year old Moli cells perform that good, then how ones manufactured this year do?
I just ordered 3 of the moli from same seller. Almost did about 3 weeks ago when I had a chance to snipe them at like $15 but hadn't heard anything about them so I shied away.
I Have a MNKE 26650 400mah that I overdischarge up to 1.8v and wont charge in my other charger except on my ML-102 V2, After a few hours its now full charged to 4.2v.
Do I have to worry about anything that happened to this battery?
Thanks
Many charger cannot pick up a cell with a voltage lower than 2.2V, so I think it's normal that most chargers won't charge this cell.
What cause this over-dischage, was it a boost driver? Under load the voltage must have been lower than 1.8V.
Actually an error on my part, Used this to power my 2xD operated Fan and forgot to turn it off, The Fan stopped working and when I checked the voltage its at 1.8v. I used a stock driver from one of my lights thinking this could act as my over discharge protection circuit but I made a mistake almost causing killing a barely used battery. Currently using a protected 18650 batts in the Fan.
First post here guys. Newbie to this new world (but not to the interest :) ).
Just ordered the King Kong INR26650E. N.Shock or someone, any chance you can do a discharge test on these to compare to the ICR?
Bose301s, go Huskys :) 2002 Graduate
Don't be surprised when you actually get them, that it really is a King Kong ICR26650E
yeah, hoping not the case.. Ordered from the CN Quality Goods link at top of page.. but we'll see... 20-30 days out lol.
I don't want to wait anymore :( want king kongs and tr-j12 now.. please?
Agreed, but I did contact Ric @ CNQG and he assured me he has both and changed the website to reflect that. Let us know what you end up receiving.
And 01110111011001010110110001100011011011110110110101100101 to BLF, binaryman!
Thanks :) Here's to hoping..
Found some discharge graphs to compare to N.Shock's ICR.. no time on these graphs though, but if converting correctly looks like a bit more run time.. Either way looks good:
Can anyone say what size magnets (or better yet link, or ebay link) I might need to get my kingkongs to work in my TrustFire tr-j12?
It's good to have you here, binaryman.
Did you know that there are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
The little rare earth magnets work perfectly. You can order from overseas or get them from Harbor Freight, 10 pack for $1.89:
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-rare-earth-magnets-67488.html
Ok. I wasn't sure, as I read neodymium doesn't conduct 'as well' as other metals/magnets, didn't want a current issue.
Also, better to get smaller diameter ones, or like 25mm so can tape in place easier? What's best way to keep them from moving around with a bump?