Actually, I was quite interested in an Elio, but how long has it been vaporware already? And when are people who expressed interest and “reserved” theirs (whatever that entails) actually going to get one?
I wanted something more convenient to be able to stuff into my (half of the) driveway, but wasn’t terribly interested in a murdercycle except as a placeholder to wheel out and take my front spot when I’d go somewhere (letting me winnow down to 1 car only), and possibly to just tour around in summer (ie, carry insurance for only half a year), but NYC traffic and the idiots on the road would make that a dangerous proposition. I’d rather not get gorked or end up a para-/quadriplegic, y’know?
And even a “Smart Car” getting only 40-mpg?? What a joke! My old fullsize Buick gets about 30 on the straights with a 3.8L pushing it along. You mean to tell me a little road-rat like that can’t get at least 60??
So even if an Elio only hits in the 60s vs claimed goal of 84mpg, it’s still a decent proposition. A 1-person commuter (don’t need a co-pilot in back) makes it way better’n an enclosed golf-cart. Only thing that would concern me would it any tendency to “weathervane” in high winds. But then again, I’d take a real car in lousy weather anyway.
Frankly, if I hear that Elio is delivering, I’d see what shakes out and as long as there’s no seriously bad news (say, qualitywise), I’d be in for one.
Hybrids aren’t twice as efficient as the same car without that tech, but it certainly helps.
Would hit 30mpg regularly in the hybrid Escape I had for a while, and anecdotally driving cars between dealership locations for work, the hybrids always got noticeably better milage.
I’ve got a gas powered F150 that’ll get 25mpg on the highway if I’m careful. Not all trucks “guzzle” fuel. This one has a smaller (2.7L) V6 and twin turbos. It can tow a boat or camper (with about 15mpg in my experience) too. I mainly use it to carry my tools/equipment daily, and I have a typical commute of 92 miles. I actually use my truck as a truck regularly, and it is a tool (the right tool) that works well for what I need. I have never felt the need to justify my truck, and don’t see it as an outward expression of my inner self-worth. I purchased it to fit my needs and budget. If I had less driving to do, or more towing I might have gotten the larger 3.5L Ecoboost or the 5.0L (I believe the 3.5L Ecoboost is actually higher performance than the 5.0L NA, but they have slightly different strengths).
When I finally get myself some more land, I will likely trade this smaller truck in for an F250 with a Powerstroke to match the increased workload I’ll need it to carry. It won’t be to look cool or provide me with a symbol of status. My buddies growing up used to joke “big truck, small peen”, so maybe this attitude is regional? I grew up in north central Texas in a rural community (10 in my graduating class). People out there generally drove trucks for the utility. I think the people leftdisconnected takes issue with are more likely the ones with “truck balls” or “too-tall-to-be-useful” lifts and ultra shiny wheels… that is a whole ’nother thing. I think attitude matters here.
My brother drives a Dodge Challenger with a 6.4L engine. No idea what kind of mileage he gets, but it sure is quick… I think we are blessed to have the freedom to choose whatever suits us. It isn’t really our business what someone else is doing with their freedom.
I won’t touch too much on politics, but I come from Texas, drive a Ford F150, and I’m going to keep my firearms. I took a number of environmental science classes in college, and apart from a few crazier students I think it was a great time. I grew up outdoors, am a Boy Scout, and love nature. If it would be useful to me, I could see driving a Nissan Leaf or a Tesla 3. I don’t think environmentalism is something that follows “party lines”, and the main disagreements are more about the “How” than the “What”.
I like having a sedan/compact when driving (and especially parking ) in the city but really miss the capacity of an SUV. If you actually use your truck for hauling, towing, etc. you aren’t doing it for “the look”. I know a lot of people with souped-up trucks that never do anything but commute to-from work here; that’s their money to use for what they want though.
There are definitely some vehicles I associate with terrible and/or dangerous drivers though… most of them being pretty expensive.
No, not the Elio. For all of their mistakes, I have to stick up for them on this point. They designed the car to pass all standard safety regulations and to have a full suite of airbags. They did the smart thing here, as the Elio was intended to get 5 stars on every safety test, since they knew that buyers would consider such a small car to be “unsafe” and that insurance companies might balk at insuring them.
They did not use 3 wheels to skirt safety laws, but instead thought that it would save money on manufacturing and materials while maximizing efficiency, allowing a simpler drive system and smaller, more aerodynamic body.
One problem was that they then had to go around the country convincing state legislators to re-classify the Elio from a motorcycle to a car. Then they realized the need to also include a “skateboard” roller assembly so that people could drive the Elio over oil change bays :person_facepalming: . Mechanics’ lifts were/are still a problem.
They did use off-the-shelf parts for everything they could, but then elected to design a new engine from scratch, which simply wasn’t financially feasible. Observers eventually realized that it would have been simpler and cheaper to just build a small, 4-wheel car (the company likely did, too, but hasn’t admitted it). I still hope that we get something like the Elio someday, as the economics of a truly inexpensive commuter vehicle are better than any Tesla, provided it avoids luxury features.
They also initially promised an 84MPG car for US$5,959, a combination which they could not possibly deliver. The price was later increased to $7,450, but that’s also unrealistic.
The company announced that 100 pre-production cars would be produced in 2019. In 2017, Elio Motors was reportedly more than $50 million in debt with an estimated $300+ million needed to reach production. I won’t take those odds.
Yes, but many posters immediately made fun of the “stupid” electric car for running out of battery like some sort of toy. It was a funny story, but it was then used to bash not only electric vehicles, but the ideas behind those vehicles, including unsaid “political” ideas. I totally accept that electric vehicles don’t solve our problems, but I also see no reason to unfairly make fun of them or use them as examples of “today’s stupidity.”
Twice as efficient for moving a 200lb. human being. A standard car uses 1% of its energy to move the human driver, while an old Toyota Prius uses 2% of its energy to move the human driver. Thus, twice the efficiency. That doesn’t equal twice the MPG, because the car is still wasting most of its energy through heat generation and moving 3,000lbs of steel around.
I’m not going to argue the math as I already went through all of that 15 years ago or something, so it’s fine if people don’t believe me. It doesn’t even matter, since occupant-mile/gallon is the relevant metric. Yes, it’s disappointing that the mileage has declined over time, but I guess, like most cars, the Prius has gotten fatter and more powerful. I think today the smarter choice might be the Camry Hybrid as it gets pretty much identical mileage as the Prius. I would like to recommend hybrids from other manufacturers, but most of those are SUV’s and thus are inherently less efficient than a car.
My point was that hybrid cars can have excellent payback and are more ecologically friendly than electric cars right now. In fact, we could make many more hybrid cars (and trucks?) than Tesla electric ones with today’s limited supply of li-ion batteries and this would save far more energy than spending all of those batteries on Teslas. Any tax rebates should prioritize hybrids over electrics so long as batteries and battery materials are limited commodities.
Hmmm. I scanned the thread before my last post and saw page after page of posts that were definitely political in nature. Some even called people stupid for wanting to improve energy efficiency or reduce ecological impact. Those posts and accusations were deeply “political” and it’s the elephant in the room for the entire thread.
I was relaying my personal experience that MY family and friends definitely avoid certain products because of their beliefs, so it certainly seemed an appropriate comment. What I said is absolutely true where I live. You can even get fired from your job here if you say something unflattering about Coal; good luck winning a jury trial if you sue. I would not own a Tesla here, because it would likely get keyed, or worse. The irony is that the Tesla burns coal :person_facepalming: .
I hopefully deleted the objectionable content from the prior post.
Note that I don’t really want to own a Tesla, anyway, since the things seem to need an Internet connection just to boot up. A Tesla is not a car; it’s a computer with wheels. I do agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this thread, but did not agree with the general assessment that it was ridiculous to use a Tesla as a police car.
I prefer older cars with stick-shift transmissions. I have zero intention of ever owning a car with an automatic transmission, yet most cars today don’t offer a manual transmission! They come with either a CVT or a 43-speed automatic (yes, an exaggeration). I actually like CVT’s and have been promoting them since the mid-90’s when they became rugged enough for production cars, but I don’t want one . I’m a geek and control freak, so I want to control the transmission, thank you very much.
I don’t want a video screen in the dash, either, but every vehicle on the market now has one. I don’t mind having a computer control the engine as that offers some real benefits in engine management and efficiency, but I want to drive, not be driven.
And while I’m at it, I think I’ll gripe about the fact that car manufacturers no longer bother putting proper high-low climate modes into cars, apparently because consumers have grown too stupid to use them. We did science in the the 1950’s and 60’s and found that human beings are most comfortable with warm feet and a cool head and thus American and Japanese cars had wonderful high-low modes for decades, yet “mix” modes in new cars just blow the same temperature air out of the “foot” and “face” vents . That’s not progress.
I’ve wanted to do that for years. I don’t mind doing some searches on my own, but do you know of a good place to start if I want to learn how you are doing this? Do you have to root the phone?
I won’t bring this up again in this thread, so sorry if I’m going off-topic.
If you are willing to root your phone you can achieve the same result without any additional hardware. There are several battery charge limiting apps on Play store.
But I didn’t want to root my phone and used Blitzwolf SHP5 smart socket with USB output. On the phone I have 2 apps: Automate and IFTTT. Automate checks the battery level and tells IFTTT to turn off the smart plug. It would be better to do it in one app but one cannot check the battery level while the other does not know how to operate the smart plug. First world problems.
I believe electric vehicles are the future, but certainly not in the form they are in today.
There are just too many inconveniences overshadowing the benefits when comparing to their fossil fuel burning vehicles and most consumers aren’t willing to live with those inconveniences. What happens after three or four years when you need a new battery pack? That’s 5000 USD, best case. What happens when your Tesla warranty runs out and you need to get repairs? You don’t, or you spend lots of money, assuming you can find someone who will touch the thing or even has the ability to get parts. What happens when you need to drive more than 200 miles? Better have your gas guzzler on standby. Live in an apartment? You can’t charge the thing so you are SOL. Power out or in the midst of some kind of natural disaster? Oh boy.
Things like this may seem minor in the grand scheme, but they are things many consumers just aren’t willing to overlook.
Safety is a concern in vehicles with large Li-ion packs. I’d rather not be in a burning vehicle at all if I can avoid it, but I’d much rather be in one with a 15 gallon gas tank than a 1200 pound Li-ion battery pack.
There are other ways to power electric vehicles. Hydrogen fuel cells for example. I understand that producing hydrogen isn’t too efficient today, but if the process was developed further, it could be improved and made more efficient. The same can be said about Li-ion batteries. They are not an ideal power source for an electric vehicle, at least not as they are today. It’s just the best we’ve got right now.
I’m sure I’ll own an EV in my lifetime, but it certainly will not be any of the ones available today.
The same was said about hybrids but AFAIK the lifespan of the batteries has actually exceeded the estimates from the manufacturers on average. IDK if that is really relevant since for an EV they would be getting much more use I assume?
That completely discounts the EVs coming from large, established brands. The Leaf, etc. exist and have easily available support right now.
Agreed on most of the other points, but the infrastructure (or lack thereof) for charging EVs is a bigger issue than the aspects of the vehicles themselves.
I think for someone who has a regular commute of less than the full range of the EV, and can charge it overnight at home (assuming reliable grid coverage) this isn’t even an issue. Who cares if there are charging stations on every corner like there are gas stations now when you don’t need them? Any large metropolitan area has a bunch these days, and where I live (though fairly rural) they just put in 6 at the local Walmart.
People probably argued that gas powered cars would never replace steam powered ones because coal was much easier to get anywhere…
I don’t know what the regular maintenance of an EV looks like, but reportedly this is where some of the savings occur (if we’re talking before any needed battery replacements). I read some article that purported that the 5 year TCO for a Tesla 3 was LOWER than an Accord or Camry. Not sure if they projected the 10 year TCO, but if there is a large battery replacement in there it might skew the other way. The lower 5 year TCO probably isn’t accurate if you do your own maintenance either. For someone who leases or gets a new car before 5 years, this might make great sense. If you drive a 5-10 year old Camry/Accord and do your own maintenance, you are probably pretty frugal and wouldn’t be interested in a new EV anyway.
If you envision a city where electric cars outnumber the gas powered ones, then the problem becomes the fact that the electric car is using/tying up the charging station for at least 30 minutes (for a quick boost that would equal somewhere near 60% if using the Supercharger)
But lets go with 30 minutes, now how many electric feeds are there in the same space as a good sized gas station?
If they are all tied up for 30 minutes, that is a problem.
You said they just put in 6 at the local Walmart, OK so if each car is there for 30 minutes, then per Station can only charge 48 cars for the entire day.
When the person charging the car locks it and goes in the Walmart and does not come out at 30 min then the numbers really take a turn for the worse.
This is going to lead to Charging Station Rage.
How many cars can get gas from one pump in 24 hours?
Even if someone dilly dally’s around at the Quick-E-Mart and spends 10 minutes, that equals 144 cars per day per pump.
Most people in a hurry are in and out in 5 minutes.
And the previous poster brings up great point of living in 3rd floor condo, how is this person going to be able to get slow/full charge at home?
This utopia does not seem to work when brought to full scale.
If you overload the grid, electric companies will be forced to build more plants = more pollution, higher rates, Road Tax to pay for the roads that gas taxes help fund now, etc.
Sorry, don’t see the love.
Like the technology, but do not see it conquering the vast wide open spaces that we like to travel effectively for a long, long time.
I said all that before, too. I don’t live in a 3rd floor condo, but a private house, and only have a “shared driveway” and a neighbor who would “prefer not to” keep a car in the driveway. So I effectively have no way to charge such a car, either.
And leaving a charging cable draped across the sidewalk overnight IF I could park in front of the house overnight? Lawsuit waiting to happen…
Ditto with the already-overtaxed electric grid, animosity towards more coal plants, nuclear plants, other established ways to generate electricity, the whole NIMBY attitude towards local substations even now (when said substations are only fired up during heatwaves when everyone and his grandmother has the AC fired up to arctic levels).
Now imagine all those folx in California during wildfire season being told to evacuate in their electric cars even though power’s been cut and a fire started anyway (lightning, idiot tossing out a lit cigarette, etc.).
Infrastructure needs to be there first before widespread adoption could happen. Else it’d be limited to the ’burbs and rural areas only.
That is why I outlined a specific scenario where an EV would be a good fit, because there are cases where they work. I don’t think everyone would need/want/could use one.
I think it is great to have the option for those that want one and/or could benefit from owning one. The one Tesla I took a ride in was FAST, and the self driving stuff was reportedly great in stop and go traffic. I wouldn’t have paid what this guy did, but he really likes it.
I don’t believe that current EVs offer what I need in a primary vehicle, but I think there is a future where that might change.
I would really be disappointed if they legislated Gasoline/Diesel powered vehicles away. Along with the entirely relevant and serious use cases, the grumble of a 5.0L Coyote or a 6.4L Hemi is like a symphony to my ears. I have an old Toyota MR2 in the garage slated for an engine swap (“one of these days”) and can’t imagine that the “whirr” of an electric motor would be as satisfying as a turbo charged V6 with some nice pipes.
EDIT:
Thought of another possible use case for EVs - city buses. they operate on a fixed schedule and travel fixed routes.
Proof of concept! With buses it would be easier to change/add routes, and the infrastructure might be cheaper.
I had a professor in one of my environmental science classes back in college who was from California. He didn’t drive an EV, and received a lot of flak from his colleagues because of it. He would always explain to them that the majority of the electricity in his area came from coal, and driving an EV wouldn’t be any better for the environment than a small gasoline powered car (what he drove) if you just counted emissions… but if you count the landfill space and the mining of the lithium for the battery of the EV (they hadn’t developed great ways to recycle the lithium by then either) the small gas vehicle kept for 15 years or so would be far better.
He was one of the few I encountered in that field with any sense at all.
For gasoline cars the needed supply infrastructure is a place to buy gasoline. Right? The infrastructure of gasoline stations was NOT in place before gasoline cars started to be sold. The cars were built first. In the beginning people bought gasoline wherever they could. Some of the first dispensaries of gasoline were pharmacies. Apparently the first purpose-built gas station was constructed in St. Louis, Missouri in 1905 at 420 South Theresa Avenue.
So, not to draw to fine a comparisson between early gas cars and todays electrics, electrics will become more and more common. Certainly there are problems to be overcome. But just because PG&E has messed up by ignoring its responsbilities to maintain its infrastructure does not mean EV’s will not suceed. They are not for everybody right now but neither were the first gas cars popular with everyone.
Here in NYC we already have a few electric buses. I’ve seen (but haven’t been on yet) a couple of Proterra e-buses on some lines, and New Flyer’s Xcelsior XE40s (the XD40 is diesel; XE40 electric) floating around somewhere.
I’ve been on a few buses that are still diesel but have start-stop tek, which makes the bus eerily quiet when it’s waiting at a light, etc. Rather creepy, in fact. You can hear every scratch, belch, fart, and gurgle that’s no longer masked by engine noise. :confounded:
) in the city but really miss the capacity of an SUV. If you actually use your truck for hauling, towing, etc. you aren’t doing it for “the look”. I know a lot of people with souped-up trucks that never do anything but commute to-from work here; that’s their money to use for what they want though.
. I’m a geek and control freak, so I want to control the transmission, thank you very much.
. That’s not progress.
