21700 is the future

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will34
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I don’t feel much difference between my SC700D vs D4 size wise, but with the zebralight it just seems like the battery lasts much longer.

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This discussion has no point. 21700 cells are a new format which someone came up with just because it was of benefit to his industry, period. 21700 cells are already here, they're not “the future”. Indiscriminately favouring some stuff over another is stupid. There are many applications for which 18650 cells are still better suited than 21700s, so long live 'em and any other different format.

Let me say, for example, that some of you probably think or even believe the 26650 format trails behind in technology. I sort of agree and it has its reasons, but let me say they're not going to dissapear anytime soon, not by a long shot. Power Long Battery is probably the main standard bearer of the category, I see they're very focused in LiFePO4 (best LiFePO4 26650 cells in the market right now). And regarding their li-ion NMC cells, they're widely used in buses, logistics trucks and etc. within the Chinese market. And when you think how BIG is their bus fleet, you can understand.

Both 55A and 50A cells are listed here but not there. I think someone said they were discontinuing the 55A, hope not. Or at least hope they develop 60x, 65x or better models. 

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extremesquared
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18650 is going nowhere within the next decade because of power tools. 21700 is not viable in cordless tools.
Also wouldn’t surprise me if some EVs continue to use 18650 even if tesla does not.

manithree
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extremesquared wrote:
18650 is going nowhere within the next decade because of power tools. 21700 is not viable in cordless tools. Also wouldn’t surprise me if some EVs continue to use 18650 even if tesla does not.

Has any EV manufacturer besides Tesla ever used 18650? None of the major brands available in the US have, AFAIK.

SubLGT
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extremesquared wrote:
… 21700 is not viable in cordless tools…

Not true. 21700 cells are currently being used in power tool battery packs, and outdoor power equipment battery packs.

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/21700-vs-18650-behind-the-lithium-io...

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SubLGT wrote:
extremesquared wrote:
… 21700 is not viable in cordless tools…

Not true. 21700 cells are currently being used in power tool battery packs, and outdoor power equipment battery packs.

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/21700-vs-18650-behind-the-lithium-io...

Makes sense for large outdoor tools on platforms that don’t worry too much about universal batteries (milwaukee, ego). I should have been more specific: they will never be accepted in handheld woodworking tools like drills, drivers, and routers. And some cordless platforms try to unify battery packs across the whole line which keeps 18650s in the big tools as well (makita) and seem committed to that strategy.

Don’t get me wrong, 21700 are awesome — great for backpacking/biking lights, and I’ve switched to them for powering small solar projects. But the sky is absolutely not falling if you are depending on cheap and modern tech 18650s.

extremesquared
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manithree wrote:
extremesquared wrote:
18650 is going nowhere within the next decade because of power tools. 21700 is not viable in cordless tools. Also wouldn’t surprise me if some EVs continue to use 18650 even if tesla does not.

Has any EV manufacturer besides Tesla ever used 18650? None of the major brands available in the US have, AFAIK.

It’s not a strict EV, but Toyota did in the Prius at least, which is probably responsible for more cells on the road than the rest of the hybrid/EV market combined.

SubLGT
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extremesquared wrote:
….I should have been more specific: they will never be accepted in handheld woodworking tools like drills, drivers, and routers…

Power tool makers like Makita, Bosch, Ryobi, Metabo, Milwaukee etc are offering 21700 battery packs for their drills and drivers.

As one example, Makita has a new 21700 battery called the XGT 40V Max that they are offering for use with 6 hand held power tools: hammer drill, impact driver, reciprocating saw, circular saw, angle grinder, and rotary hammer.

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/makita-xgt-40v-max-power-tools/50266/

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Huh, that is interesting. Never seen those before. But those are likely to remain on the specialty tool fringe. Packs of 21700 in 5s2p (or in this case 10s) are too bulky for the majority of power tool users. Look at the amount of engineering and marketing that has gone into makita’s “subcompact” lineup.

If anything is going to unseat 18v 18650 in power tools it’ll be smaller cells or a radical change — like 4s1p 21700 if it can perform as well as the 5s2p 18650. Or some sort of asinine proprietary prismatic garbage. People who use these regularly are just not going to go bigger than the already very bulky current gen. I’m 6’6” and a little bit boggled by the clunkiness of 18v tools sometimes. I can’t predict the future, but I’d definitely be very surprised if 18650 based power tools disappear before 2040.

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Ladies and Gentlemen can’t we just celebrate and embrace diversity. All batteries matter. Cute little 18350’s for EDC. 18650’s and the big brother 21700 for work around the place. Even that red headed 20700 and lumbering 26650 fit niches well. I prefer single cell lights and the cell variety allows lots of options. So no more haters.

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Macka17 wrote:

…With a 26650 cell torch for walkabout.
They’re better, with a more comfortable grip for long term hold. Plus more capacity.
and it don’t hurt to carry a spare 18650/26650 in pocket.
They’re not really, going to weigh you down unless you’re a real wimp.
Thumbs Up It is surprising you got away with this comment, but it is so true!
SubLGT
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Samsung is currently supplying 21700 cells to Jaguar, and is hoping to also supply two Chinese automakers, according to this 2019 report:

http://en.thelec.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=377

Quote:
Leading South Korean battery maker Samsung SDI will more widely apply high-powered cathodes based on nickel-cobalt-aluminum materials to its cylindrical flat top batteries to carve out a larger slice of the electric vehicle market.

Industry sources said on June 17 that the Samsung unit will proactively apply NCA materials to 21700 spec cylindrical batteries that the firm has been mass producing since last year. NCA cathodes help improve energy efficiency, while at the same time cutting costs.

Samsung SDI is currently in talks to supply the flat top batteries to Chinese electric car maker Xiaopeng – dubbed as China’s Tesla – and Chongqing Jinkang New Energy Automobile. It has already sealed a deal with Jaguar Motors.

On a monthly-basis, Samsung SDI supplies an estimated 8 million cells of the 21700 flat top batteries, according to market research firms

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SubLGT wrote:
Samsung is currently supplying 21700 cells to Jaguar, and is hoping to also supply two Chinese automakers, according to this 2019 report:

http://en.thelec.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=377

Quote:
On a monthly-basis, Samsung SDI supplies an estimated 8 million cells of the 21700 flat top batteries, according to market research firms

8 million a month, flashlights really are small fish for them. Thank you for the info.

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day to day. (not recently) but I used to be in a suit most days. Usually that included a AAA keychain light of some kind and if I was doing retail with basement, or construction site tours, I would grab a 18350. Not even an 18650.

I have a PL47 on the way and it looks small so maybe I’ll try that and update.

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For what most people use day to day, that’s more then enough. But I’ve lived through a blackout (our building only, flooding made FD cut the power to avoid getting electrocuted) where the windowless hallways were black once the emergency lights fizzled.

Just going to the community can and back, sure an AAA light would suffice, but if I were stuck somewhere that I might need decent light for a few hours, I’d definitely make sure to have a bigger donk at the ready.

And if we ever had another blackout like the one that killed the whole eastern seaboard, damnedstraight I’d want enough firepower to last me a while.

A twisted part of me almost wants another blackout, just to be able to use all my toys. Crazy

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Pff… not for the headlamps.

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Quadrupel wrote:
Pff… not for the headlamps.

Unless it’s for those with a separate battery pack.

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I allready got a batteries and flashlights for AA, 18(3)650 and 26650. These standaards provide everything I need. From EDC to power hungry builds.

I don’t plan on investing into this new standard.

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Also, depending on the light, eg, the C8F, the fatter tube just seems better balanced (both look and feel) and gives a better grip, and in a pinch you can throw in an 18650 and it’ll work. Won’t even need an “adapter tube” for it, as if you’re really anal-retentive about the chance of the cell rattling around inside, a quick wrap with a napkin or tissue will take up the slack and even provide cushioning.

It’s already a decent-sized light, so the difference won’t be as much as an 18650 tubelight vs its 21700 equivalent.

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This post confused me on first read. You say you wouldn’t want to use your edc for more than 2 hours. Then, you wouldn’t buy any 21700 light because you wouldn’t use the capacity. I initially read that as 2 separate points but I think you intend them to mean the same thing. It highlights how differently we use our lights.

Certainly, on a typical need basis I can make an 18650 last weeks or months. I can get by with a minimum amount of light. On a recent 6 night camping trip I had an AA headlamp and 18650 light and didn’t exhaust a single battery of either with lots of use.

On the other hand I like going for walks in dark, solitary trails. 20-50 lumens is enough for almost anything I do. Maybe less. However, even 1,000 lumens doesn’t eliminate the creepy factor. But 3,000 of those units and I feel quite comfortable and let’s me explore some of the open spaces. I don’t need to do that but I can and I like it. And I like going out for hours. I can go through equivalent of several 18650 on a single walk.

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^ I was replying to Ventsi from page 2. I see it didn’t quote.

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Those of us with arthritis and other mobility problems have to keep the weight we carry down to a reasonable level, so I am actually needing to change from carring a 18650 light to carrying a single AA light. I might finally get a successor to my Zebralight SC52 XM-L. I’m looking at the SC53w. The cells larger than 18650 are definitely not a possibility for me for me now.

I’m liking my Rovyvon E300s Nichia as a home-based light – it is powerful and well-made, but too heavy for carrying on a commute.

"However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light." - Stanley Kubrick

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Am I wrong to think that maybe 21700 is not as great as I had hoped? I jumped on the Thrunite TN50 but no one else is doing a multiple 21700 form factor. So far the Acebeam K75 and Acebeam K30 GT is perfectly fine with 18650 batteries. The BLF GT70 is also fine with 18650 batteries. I’m starting to think that the 4×21700 is a bit too thick, and the 21700 is only a huge advantage when used by the thousands of cells in a massive battery pack in the Tesla Electric Car? Ha-ha. Maybe the manufacturers outside of Thrunite hasn’t caught on yet. Or maybe the 18650 is perfect and the 21700 is just a little too big for a 4 times form factor; for flashlights? Why has no one manufactured a 3×21700 flashlight yet? -the thoughts of a flashlight aficionado.

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Why does there have to be a one-size-fits-all solution? We have different battery sizes for different applications and preferences. This is a good thing.

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You are so right, Rayoui. I think it’s just the recent releases of the excellent Orbtronic 3120mAh 30A-40A, Sony|Murata VTC5D, Samsung 24S, and other fine 18650 offerings have kept me captivated. Beer Cheers!

Rayoui wrote:
Why does there have to be a one-size-fits-all solution? We have different battery sizes for different applications and preferences. This is a good thing.
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Nah, we should create a new battery size that’s in the middle of all of them, that will be a one-battery-for-everyone solution!

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Rayoui wrote:
Why does there have to be a one-size-fits-all solution? We have different battery sizes for different applications and preferences. This is a good thing.

21700 isn’t enough of a size-dump from 18650 to make it worthwhile. Just enough to make it too big for EDC, but not enough to give a good boost to capacity. Yuck.

If you look at popular battery sizes, they all have a decent jump in size and capacity. AAA, AA, C, D. There’s a clear distinction in form and purpose. For lithium-ion, there’s already too much overlap. 21700 just makes that worse.

I like that I can buy a bunch of 18650’s, and use them in tons of lights. I don’t want a slightly different battery size for every light.

Rayoui
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WalkIntoTheLight wrote:
Rayoui wrote:
Why does there have to be a one-size-fits-all solution? We have different battery sizes for different applications and preferences. This is a good thing.

21700 isn’t enough of a size-dump from 18650 to make it worthwhile. Just enough to make it too big for EDC, but not enough to give a good boost to capacity. Yuck.

If you look at popular battery sizes, they all have a decent jump in size and capacity. AAA, AA, C, D. There’s a clear distinction in form and purpose. For lithium-ion, there’s already too much overlap. 21700 just makes that worse.

I like that I can buy a bunch of 18650’s, and use them in tons of lights. I don’t want a slightly different battery size for every light.

Then you don’t have use them. Like I said, different sizes for different applications and preferences.

21700 cells can provide much higher current than an 18650 while still maintaining high capacity. This is important for lights using boost drivers or throwers with very high-current LEDs. Good luck properly driving an SBT-90 light with a single 18650 cell.

For lights that I use around the yard or on the trails, I prefer the size of a 26650 or 21700 light to an 18650 light. Seems to fit better in my hand and the extra capacity doesn’t hurt. That said, my EDC lights are almost exclusively 18650. The 21700 is simply too large for a pocket light (though I do occasionally pocket carry my M2R Pro).

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Rayoui wrote:
WalkIntoTheLight wrote:

21700 isn’t enough of a size-dump from 18650 to make it worthwhile. Just enough to make it too big for EDC, but not enough to give a good boost to capacity. Yuck.

Then you don’t have use them. Like I said, different sizes for different applications and preferences.

Sure, but the point of this thread is to imply that 21700 is going to replace 18650. If 21700 is the future, then the future sucks.

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