[Review] 77 Outdoors D25 Headlamp (18650)

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R0tten
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Sorry to ask this question again…. but I plan on getting one. Has anyone officially determined if these XM-L2 LED’s are not a real cree? I played with a wowtac a2s then a sofirn sp40 and I was thinking of getting one of those for myself. I then ran into the D25 and thought it would be within 1-2% difference between them, since they all have XM-L2’s. I would actually expect the D25 is better because it has 2 XM-L2’s? I’m not sure I understand.

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1. I don’t know if the LED is genuine, considering low price I suspect it’s not.
2. Regardless if that’s the case, performance is not within 1-2%. Let’s assume for a while that the LED is genuine XM-L2…

  • For the same CCT and CRI, the difference between top bin and bottom bin is ~25%
  • Within bin there’s about 7% difference
  • Any CCT differences add variability
  • Driver and optics are not the same, driver has huge effect on performance while optics has quite minor but still way more than 2%
  • D25 has unregulated driver while the other 2 are regulated. This means that D25 output drops as battery deplates which is not the case with the other 2. It may be better at full cell but worse at near-empty

EDIT:
Scratched info that the 2 lights that you’ve seen have regulated drivers as I’ve got notice from RD that this is incorrect w.r.t Sofirn SP40

JasonWW
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Agro wrote:

  • Within bin there’s about 7% difference

I see people assume this a lot. Cree lists +-7% which is a potential 14% difference within a single bin. I guess they try to stay within 7%, but allow 3.5% extra on each end just to cover themselves.

The bottom line is it’s probably about 7% like you said. Just thought I’d mention it.

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Agro
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JasonWW wrote:
Agro wrote:

  • Within bin there’s about 7% difference

I see people assume this a lot. Cree lists +-7% which is a potential 14% difference within a single bin. I guess they try to stay within 7%, but allow 3.5% extra on each end just to cover themselves.

The bottom line is it’s probably about 7% like you said. Just thought I’d mention it.


I was talking about different 7% and missed this one. Wink
You’re talking about “Cree maintains a tolerance of ±7% on flux and power measurements”.
I was talking about bin width, f.e. T5 is 260-280 lm (7.7% width) and U3 is 320-340 lm (6.3% width).

So…there’s even more variability than I listed above.

Wieselflinkpro
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R0tten wrote:
Sorry to ask this question again…. but I plan on getting one. Has anyone officially determined if these XM-L2 LED’s are not a real cree? I played with a wowtac a2s then a sofirn sp40 and I was thinking of getting one of those for myself. I then ran into the D25 and thought it would be within 1-2% difference between them, since they all have XM-L2’s. I would actually expect the D25 is better because it has 2 XM-L2’s? I’m not sure I understand.

They has XP-Footprint and I think they are no genuine Cree LEDs.
They looks similar to XP-L LEDs.
alpg88
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i’m pretty sure those are LB leds, not cree

RD
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Agro wrote:

  • D25 has unregulated driver while the other 2 are regulated. This means that D25 output drops as battery deplates which is not the case with the other 2. It may be better at full cell but worse at near-empty

The Sofirn SP40 driver is also unregulated. Brightness decreases as the battery runs out.

Sorry for my bad English.

gchart
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Wieselflinkpro wrote:
R0tten wrote:
Sorry to ask this question again…. but I plan on getting one. Has anyone officially determined if these XM-L2 LED’s are not a real cree? I played with a wowtac a2s then a sofirn sp40 and I was thinking of getting one of those for myself. I then ran into the D25 and thought it would be within 1-2% difference between them, since they all have XM-L2’s. I would actually expect the D25 is better because it has 2 XM-L2’s? I’m not sure I understand.

They has XP-Footprint and I think they are no genuine Cree LEDs.
They looks similar to XP-L LEDs.

Strange. It must vary from source to source. Mine had the 5050 (XM-L2) footprint:
Agro
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RD wrote:
Agro wrote:

  • D25 has unregulated driver while the other 2 are regulated. This means that D25 output drops as battery deplates which is not the case with the other 2. It may be better at full cell but worse at near-empty

The Sofirn SP40 driver is also unregulated. Brightness decreases as the battery runs out.


Thanks for the correction.
gchart
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Yes, that is correct… the SP40 is unregulated

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Wieselflinkpro wrote:
R0tten wrote:
Sorry to ask this question again…. but I plan on getting one. Has anyone officially determined if these XM-L2 LED’s are not a real cree? I played with a wowtac a2s then a sofirn sp40 and I was thinking of getting one of those for myself. I then ran into the D25 and thought it would be within 1-2% difference between them, since they all have XM-L2’s. I would actually expect the D25 is better because it has 2 XM-L2’s? I’m not sure I understand.

They has XP-Footprint and I think they are no genuine Cree LEDs.
They looks similar to XP-L LEDs.
I got my first D25 from 77Outdoor on Amazon and they clearly stated in their ad at that time the emitter was Cree-like and confirmed in an email that they were not Cree. Since that time their D25 model has been updated to SST-40 (similar to the Sofirn D25S offering.)

However the D10/D25/D20 based headlamps are apparently offered by many different vendor house brands and the emitters used by each may vary.

There seems to be more consistency with the Sofirn and/or Wowtac headlamps but that’s my assumption.

Seeking the light.

Wieselflinkpro
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gchart wrote:
Wieselflinkpro wrote:
R0tten wrote:
Sorry to ask this question again…. but I plan on getting one. Has anyone officially determined if these XM-L2 LED’s are not a real cree? I played with a wowtac a2s then a sofirn sp40 and I was thinking of getting one of those for myself. I then ran into the D25 and thought it would be within 1-2% difference between them, since they all have XM-L2’s. I would actually expect the D25 is better because it has 2 XM-L2’s? I’m not sure I understand.

They has XP-Footprint and I think they are no genuine Cree LEDs.
They looks similar to XP-L LEDs.

Strange. It must vary from source to source. Mine had the 5050 (XM-L2) footprint:

You are right, I checkt my lights.
The older one, with the driver-pics in this thread has XP-LEDs. This is from Xanes, ordered from Banggood.
The newer from Aliexpress has XM-L2 – Style LEDs, with “LMP” written on the LED.





R0tten
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Agro wrote:
1. I don’t know if the LED is genuine, considering low price I suspect it’s not.
2. Regardless if that’s the case, performance is not within 1-2%. Let’s assume for a while that the LED is genuine XM-L2…
  • For the same CCT and CRI, the difference between top bin and bottom bin is ~25%
  • Within bin there’s about 7% difference
  • Any CCT differences add variability
  • Driver and optics are not the same, driver has huge effect on performance while optics has quite minor but still way more than 2%
  • D25 has unregulated driver while the other 2 are regulated. This means that D25 output drops as battery deplates which is not the case with the other 2. It may be better at full cell but worse at near-empty

EDIT:
Scratched info that the 2 lights that you’ve seen have regulated drivers as I’ve got notice from RD that this is incorrect w.r.t Sofirn SP40

Yeah, thanks for the info. It really seams that (I guess even for a fake XM-L2?) this D25 headlamp keeps up with the sofirn pretty decent for the first 2 hours (judging by the run time/output graphs)? Am I right? Does having 2 of the LED’s over just the version with 1 actually make it brighter? I was thinking about getting the single LED with the zoom feature, but I want more brightness over zoom.

alpg88 wrote:
i’m pretty sure those are LB leds, not cree

Never heard of LB.

pc_light wrote:
Wieselflinkpro wrote:

They has XP-Footprint and I think they are no genuine Cree LEDs.
They looks similar to XP-L LEDs.
I got my first D25 from 77Outdoor on Amazon and they clearly stated in their ad at that time the emitter was Cree-like and confirmed in an email that they were not Cree. Since that time their D25 model has been updated to SST-40 (similar to the Sofirn D25S offering.)

However the D10/D25/D20 based headlamps are apparently offered by many different vendor house brands and the emitters used by each may vary.

There seems to be more consistency with the Sofirn and/or Wowtac headlamps but that’s my assumption.

Really great information from everyone.

I assume that these are still pretty great to have for the price and come close to wow and sofirn, so I have 3 choices; Sanyi D10, Boruit D10? & Sanyi D25

What do you guys thinK Question

JasonWW
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R0tten wrote:

I would actually expect the D25 is better because it has 2 XM-L2’s? I’m not sure I understand.

The only advantages of using 2 leds, with a limited amperage driver, is slightly better efficiency and slightly higher output. Let’s say the driver has a 3A limit. A single xml2 running at 3A is let’s say 1000 lumen. The same led running at 1.5A is 600 lumen, not 500. LEDs are more efficient at lower power levels.

So if you have only 3A total, a twin xml2 light can output 1200 lumen (2 leds running at 1.5A each) instead of 1000 lumen. Higher total output and better efficiency.

So 2 leds are better, but there are downsides as well. The special oval shaped mcpcb makes it hard to swap a new led in. If you reuse the oval shape mcpcb you are forced to reflow new leds on it which is harder to do and your limited to 5mm leds.

In my opinion, I’d rather have the D10 with its single led. It’s far easier to swap in a new led and round mcpcb just by soldering 2 wires. I can use whatever 3v led I want. (I chose a very nice tint with good color rendering) It’s also easier to swap in a plastic optic to replace the reflector. I really don’t mind the small loss of efficiency and brightness as I rarely run the battery fully down or use max brightness.

So it’s up to you to decide what’s more important as to which model is best for your needs.

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For anyone interested just get the Sofirn D25S which they have installed SST-40’s and updated the firmware.

On/Off – Single click
Hold – Stepped levels – Release and hold within 2 sec changes direction
Double click – Strobe, Beacon

Texas Ace Lumen Tube calibrated with maukka lights

New Zealand store – https://www.piercingthedarkness.co.nz (NZ customers only)

YouTube channel – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIUWi2vYp4CWrRkOJM70t_w/videos (Demos for my customers, and reviews)

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does it focus correctly with sst40?

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I got 5pcs and all of them look great, all centered perfectly. Doesn’t look anything different than any other light using a SST40 and smooth reflector. Nothing that annoys me.

Solid deal for this price point

Texas Ace Lumen Tube calibrated with maukka lights

New Zealand store – https://www.piercingthedarkness.co.nz (NZ customers only)

YouTube channel – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIUWi2vYp4CWrRkOJM70t_w/videos (Demos for my customers, and reviews)

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both of mine have very poor beam profile, due to leds not focusing correctly, mine have l2 leds

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alpg88 wrote:
both of mine have very poor beam profile, due to leds not focusing correctly, mine have l2 leds



Have you tried raising or lowering the reflector heights to improve focus?

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nope, i was planning on replacing leds, and reflectors, got them from kai, deeper reflectors, leds, and spacers, but did not get to it yet.

mine came with xml2 clones, maybe with actual xml2 leds, or other leds, focus would be correct, idk, but in my case, out of the box it is pretty lousy, as far as beam profile, it does illuminate, and vast majority of people would not even notice it, but we are “special” here, lol

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fixed the issue of a donut hole, i replaced leds with xpg3 on 16mm mcpcb,, and centering gasket, got leds and gasket from kaidomain, reflectors left stock, due to ticker mcpcb had to put a gasket under lens holder\cover, about 1mm, i used silicone rubber from iphone holster. now beam is much better no holes, and it seem narrower. i also got rid of cold\blue oem leds, xpg3 are 4000-4500k, according to kaidomain, (i guess that means a tint lotto) i like the light much better now,

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I just bought one, seems decent. I am a mechanic so I thought it would be useful while under a car, but I am concerned that I could break the holder on the band, anyone know where to get replacements for those?

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scitzz wrote:
I just bought one, seems decent. I am a mechanic so I thought it would be useful while under a car, but I am concerned that I could break the holder on the band, anyone know where to get replacements for those?

You can’t get replacement holders. You can either buy the rubber universal types or print yourself a new one. People have the data and will share.

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scitzz
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JasonWW wrote:
scitzz wrote:
I just bought one, seems decent. I am a mechanic so I thought it would be useful while under a car, but I am concerned that I could break the holder on the band, anyone know where to get replacements for those?
You can’t get replacement holders. You can either buy the rubber universal types or print yourself a new one. People have the data and will share.

VERY cool! I did not know there were universal rubber ones! Any chance you have a link handy? I like to be prepared ahead of time.

Also, I took mine out in the dark tonight and was pleasantly surprised. I have a Thrunite TN12 as part of my EDC. Although a different tint, they were very comparable. I did note the cheap feel of the threading on the battery cap, and hope I can get away with charging more often than replacing the battery in it. Overall extremely happy with the purchase.

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There a lot of universal ones like this for $2.

#Aliexpress US $1.94 31%OFF | Headlamp Headband head Belt head Strap Mount Holder for 18650 Headlight Flashlight Lamp Torch
https://a.aliexpress.com/_dZ6SQuG

Some are higher in price and might be better quality. You can also get the ones with the extra strap over the top.

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I got one to have as a spare, thanks so much!

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Does anyone with the D25S have issues when using click and hold to cycle high to low? Any click or click and hold just cycles from high to low and doesn’t want to cycle low to high unless turned off.

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mitsuki08 wrote:
Does anyone with the D25S have issues when using click and hold to cycle high to low? Any click or click and hold just cycles from high to low and doesn’t want to cycle low to high unless turned off.

I thought the D25S had the same UI as the D10. On the D10 it only cycles from high to low and never the other way around.

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JasonWW wrote:
mitsuki08 wrote:
Does anyone with the D25S have issues when using click and hold to cycle high to low? Any click or click and hold just cycles from high to low and doesn’t want to cycle low to high unless turned off.
I thought the D25S had the same UI as the D10. On the D10 it only cycles from high to low and never the other way around.

I have the same UI as Funtastic. It’s not really a bother but it does have memory mode so it would be nice to go down when in the medium modes rather than cycle through high. I also can’t seem to go down in modes immediately after turning it on. Just seems like a weird behavior. Though at it’s price I can’t really complain much. I knew I should have gotten more than one Quadrupel driver Facepalm

Funtastic wrote:
For anyone interested just get the Sofirn D25S which they have installed SST-40’s and updated the firmware.

On/Off – Single click
Hold – Stepped levels – Release and hold within 2 sec changes direction
Double click – Strobe, Beacon

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