[Update]Wurkkos dual LEDs 21700 Headlamp design Photos/UI update~

thank you for the feedback, we will think about it and adjust the UI better

Thank you for all your efforts. They are greatly appreciated as I have learned from your posts and studied the manuals (even for lights I do not own) which you have provided at:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1e1IWuBMaDQu-YjuigGpMwdUPErdUrMhe

Below are my personal opinions, but please take them as advisement only and make your own final decision, as I am not aware of everything you took into consideration before making your decisions.

"1x click" could be more clearly be stated as "1 click"

"2x click" could be more clearly be stated as "2 clicks"

"3x click" could be more clearly be stated as "3 clicks"

"4x click" could be more clearly be stated as "4 clicks"

"Cycle to standard strobe mode" could be more simply be stated as "Cycle to Strobe mode"

"Cycle to SOS strobe mode" could be more simply be stated as"Cycle to SOS mode"

"Cycle to Beacon strobe mode" could be more simply be stated as"Cycle to Beacon mode"

In the section "When the headlamp is OFF", after using "2x click" to Strobe, SOS, or Beacon mode I am assuming it is "1x click" to "Turn OFF" but this was not clearly stated for those modes. Maybe to be more clear the"1x click" "Turn OFF" line in the chart should be the bottom line of that section and state "1 click" "Turn OFF from any of these modes" and use a similar type wording ("1 click" "Return to previous standard mode from any of these modes") in the "When the headlamp is ON" section. Or have both the original "1x click" line and also a bottom "1x click" line in the chart so it is very clear (but that would be more words which is not always best). But it is OK as is, it just was not as obvious to me as your instructions for the rest of the chart were.

It was not clear if both LEDs are on at full power in Strobe, SOS, and Beacon mode like they are in the Turbo mode.

It would not be a true "Electronic Lockout" if moonlight remains on after a "Long press" while in "4x click" lockout mode. I would not want my headlamp to discharge unexpectedly while in my backpack. I would have it locked out mechanically by un-twisting the tail cap or head but others may not. The mechanical un-twist lockout method should also be mentioned in the manual as some may not know about that.

Your choice for the sequential order of "Strobe, SOS, and Beacon" is the best compromise. Strobe is the mode most people expect first. SOS would be the most important emergency mode. Beacon is the mode probably used the most but the order you have chosen is easy to remember and what most people would probably expect.

"Click" or "Long Press" to change brightness levels is the most difficult decision as there are pros and cons for each method. With a flashlight I can live with either but with a headlamp I would probably prefer "Click" to change brightness levels because (in the most difficult situations where I may be using a headlamp) I have an easier time getting to the correct level I want when doing it this way while wearing a headlamp which is moving around on my head while I "Click" or "Long Press". But if you use "Click" for brightness level changes then you must also use "Long Press" for OFF. It is probably best to choose the most common method as you have done because that is what most people expect and would want.

I do not know the specific mechanism as to how the proposed "3x click" "Check battery function" will operate (maybe different colors and/or blink patterns on the switch's internal LEDs to indicate the voltage) but In addition to that I would also like to have a low voltage battery warning that occurs automatically while the headlamp is on and is also very noticeable while I am wearing the headlamp on my head (as I will not be able to see the switch). Maybe something like a blink sequence that occurs occasionally as low voltage is approached and then more frequently and finally almost continuously right before the headlamp light cuts out due to low voltage (and I hope this headlamp will have true built-in low voltage protection besides just a low voltage warning).

I do like lights that have a way to keep the switch's internal LED illuminated while the light is off because it helps me find the light in the dark. But please provide an option to turn this feature on and off and do not make it too bright or breathing.

I also agree with forum member AEDe that Turbo should not be in the standard mode cycle (unless is it sustainable for more than a few minutes) and agree with AEDe that it would be innovative to have a more convenient way to very easily change between "Spotlight and Floodlight on" "Spotlight only", or "Floodlight only".

Oh I like this alot. Ive been waiting for a new headlamp and this one hits all the marks so far.

I didnt read the whole thread, but was the flood emitter a high CRI SST20?

Thank you AEDe and roostre for your valuable feedback. I take your suggestions seriously as you probably have much more experience with headlamps than I do. AEDe for instance, you provided us with some great on-site pictures using your Panda headlamp some months ago. So, to make a long story short: I have tried to simplify the UI according to your input as well as to make HD20 more convenient to operate.

I had the idea to include an "off mode" for each LED in the standard mode order. The benefit is that we can spare the triple click to adjust between spotlight, floodlight or both. Each LED can be accessed and controlled easily in its brightness by two commands: Hold or Click'n Hold. What do you guys think of that? Would that be convenient and easy to memorize at the same time without losing too much functionality that a dual emitter light can provide?

I also agree that an accidentally triggered moonlight from lockout is not what we want. So, I would change that to a temporary or momentary moonlight as long as someone keeps the button pressed.

@Mark (Wurkkos):

I hope you and Sofirn will be able to wait things out until we have a decent UI that most customers will feel happy with. I think we are very close to saying "Yep, that's what we want." :-) Without meaning to be nitpicking I think that some former lights were launched a bit too early in the first place and fortunately became much better afterwards due to reasonable UI changes, e.g. Wurkkos FC11. I would like HD20 to start with a great UI from the very beginning.

Would sure like to see this UI in an FSM implementation. Should not be difficult to do, being so close to how Anduril works.

For the UI why not use anduril? It has a verry nice way of handeling 2 led channels, and would be a selling point to everyone familiar with it. putting anduril on it would probably tip me personally into buying it.

This UI is looking pretty fantastic so far.

My concern is that if both LEDs are cycled to the “Off” mode, will the light itself technically still be on? How will that be handled in mode memory - for example will turning it “On” not activate either emitter then?

Not an official answer at all but my personal interpretation:

  • Andúril would probably need to be configured to the driver's characteristics (e.g. it needs to fit to the corresponding MCU, NTP sensor), its thermal calibration needs to be properly carried out from factory in order to work as intended.
  • Moreover, Sofirn/Wurkkos would need someone with in-depth expertise to have Andúril tailored to HD20. I don't know how much time someone like ToyKeeper or anyone else familiar with FSM is able and willing to spend for this important task. Lately, my impression on BLF is that more and more manufacturers - small or big ones - get interested in selling their lights with Andúril UI. This trend will inevitably lead to a situation of delays in UI development with only a handful of coders/programmers experienced with FSM.
  • Last but not least, you already named a quite important term..."a selling point to everyone familiar with it". As much as I like Andúril and all of its features, it takes a considerable learning curve to understand and memorize all of its great features. Now, let's just switch for a moment from the customer's point of view to the seller's point of view. If your customer service team gets a ton of questions asked from inexperienced users who just refuse to read the manual (for whatever reasons), you need to have well-trained employees familiar with Andúril and probably a significantly higher headcount. If customers return their lights in large amounts due to misinterpretation of the UI (e.g. being trapped somewhere in the UI), sales managers may reconsider using a complex UI for a light targed for the masses. Please do not confuse an OEM manufacturer like Sofirn with someone like Hank Wang (Noctigon/Emisar) who has clearly focused more or less on one UI only for all of his lights and who has a smaller variety of lights for sale. Sofirn's or Wurkkos's largest target group is the "standard customer" who apparently needs a short and concise manual with a foolproof UI. Taking these circumstances into account, I'm even more impressed that they still have two open ears for a considerably smaller target group of us flashoholics/nerds and that they continuously try to fulfill our special wishes, too. I think they would like to combine the best of both worlds to reach every potential customer - who wouldn't?

Personally, I would like to see a stripped version of Andúril with less complexity (no floor/ceiling configuration, no blinky modes, no AUX support, but with simple stepped modes and ramping as well as with a good thermal configuration) that could be adopted more easily in large scale. To be honest, I really like the FC11 UI which IMHO only lacks a manually configurable thermal stepdown.

Very good observation and an even more intriguing question, too. If someone cycles both LEDs to OFF I would consider the light to be in OFF-mode the same way if someone just clicks it to OFF. With mode memory in charge, I would suggest Wurkkos to use the battery status indicator in the switch to light up for 5s (likewise to most of Sofirn's lights that light up the indicator when being turned on) to indicate that the OFF modes are set to both LEDs. But maybe there are more, better ideas how to deal with this?

Ramping UI may be also interesting. Hold - change only output, click+hold - change throw\flood ratio with constant output. (E-zoom:)

Lux-Perpetua, I think Hold - for change output of current Led(or both) , and click+hold for changing throw-flood-both is more convinient. You can save 3 combinations and change it fast. It is similar to Panda 3 UI.

Exactly how is that? Implemented on what light? All I know of is tint blending on the LT1.

Sofirn is working on more Anduril lights, so I don't see a big problem in using an FSM compatible driver.

IF25 had tint-ramping and although it may have been coded independent of Anduril had some very similar functions.

Personally I would go with “Hold” for brightness adjustment and “Click+hold” for cycling spot/flood/both emitters. Leaves double-click open for turbo/blinky modes and doesn’t run into the problem with both emitters being set to “Off”.

Having the indicator LED light up (maybe even with a flashing pattern specifically for the scenario?) when both are set to “Off” does seem to be the best solution if the separate output selection UI is used though.

Dual-channel ramping could be cool, but the UI would be similar to the IF25 and I agree completely that you can’t bloat/complicate the UI too much for the market/niche Wurkkos is targeting.

thank you for all feedback, can’t wait to realize this model .will update to factory to do some modify. Thank you Lux-Perpetua collect all information

I have discussed the latest approach of HD20's UI with Mark (Wurkkos) today. We came to following conclusion:

  • I will incorporate the latest input from you guys into the new draft UI. Special thanks to AEDe and BurningPlayd0h for their helpful feedback.
  • This final draft UI will then be discussed with the manufacturer in the next days.
  • Ramping mode will still remain on Wurkkos's schedule for HD20 but it might be implemented in a later revision, depending on many factors like market launch schedule, increase in UI complexity etc.. I will try to post an enhanced UI with ramping mode here but I cannot tell for sure if this will be adopted by the manufacturer in revision 1 already or later on in revision 2.

I have urged Wurkkos to put extra care on a good and reliable headstrap/headband to properly support the weight of this light. A magnetic tailcap would surely be a nice add on but it will also increase HD20's weight. So, maybe they can sell a magnetic tailcap individually or put both versions (magnetic/non-magnetic) in the retail box. A big benefit would be a tailcap design that fits to more Sofirn/Wurkkos 21700 lights.

Another update:

Wurkkos is about to decide whether they should sell HD20 with 4.000K for floodlight and 5.000K for spotlight or with both LEDs in 5.000K CCT. I told Mark that 5.000K for both LEDs cannot be wrong. However, when using two different tints in one flashlight the beam should hopefully look nice when both CCTs will be mixed.

My vision of good ui)

From off
1 Click - memory mode
2 Click -> Turbo
3 Click - Strobs modes
Click+Hold - Batt Check.
4 Click+ Hold - lock|unlock
Hold - moon light (memory type of light .)
6 Click+Hold - changing steped/ramping UI

From Strobes mode
1 Click - off
2 Click - Turbo
3 Click - Return to previous mode
Hold - Changing SoS-strob1-strob2…

From Turbo mode
1 Click - off
2 Click - Return to previous mode
3 Click - Strobs modes
Hold - Change in circle Throw turbo - Both turbo - Flood turbo (may be memory ?)

Steped UI
From on
1 Click - off
2 Click - Turbo
3 Click - Strobs modes
Hold - Changing output in circle Low-Med-Hi.
Click+Hold - Changing type of light in circle Flood-Throw-Both. (output is remembered)

Ramping UI
From on
1 Click - off
2 Click - Turbo
3 Click - Strobs modes
Hold - Increasing output then decreasing it.
Click+Hold - Changing ratio throw|flood with constant output.

I am for 4000K flood. In this case I should change only throw led to 4000K)

It would be best to design a tail cap where the magnet can be removed and replaced with a non-magnetic spacer, that way you have a choice.

Maybe the removable magnet could be under a tail cap spring board that is held in place by a thin threaded ring (which uses the same threads as the tail cap) if this could be done without compromising the electrical reliability of the light.

Experienced outdoor people still use maps and compasses during their outdoor adventures.

Any magnet within several feet of a compass will affect the accuracy of the compass reading disastrously. You cannot have a headlamp with a magnetic tail cap anywhere near your compass and also navigate accurately because the magnet changes the compass bearing to the wrong direction.

Dear all,

Let me recommend another LED as 5000K option: Samsung LH351C
This LED has significantly smaller light emitting surface, than LH351D, but it can be driven to very similar maximum power as the Luminus SST-20 (I remember somebody tested it here on BLF above 5A current, so e.g. 3.5A could be perfectly safe).

With this, we could have 5000K 90 CRI under the throwy optic - unfortunately SST-20 high CRI is still not manufactured beyond 4000K, so this would be the solution not to sacrifice throw and keeping it high CRI the same time.

Is Hicri is necessary for throw? I would prefer xpl hi with good tint and efficiency for throw,and good quality light of 351D hicri (ideally nichia E21 of course) for flood.

For me, it is a big plus. I have C8 both with XM-L2 4500K 75 CRI and SST-20 4000K 95 CRI, and the XM-L2 has noticeably “dumber” beam, when it comes to object recognition in low contrast scenes. And I also have the fabulous K1 with SST-20 4000K (which is no longer an option offered by the manufacturer).

However, in some extreme throw designs (above 500kcd), I think, it is less important - then it is mostly about perceived good tint.