670nm deep red led helps eyesight

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hank
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Did the researchers get sent a Sofirn red light yet by anyone?

jon_slider
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I thought you had already done that, no?

kennybobby
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Unfortunately CREE doesn’t indicate their measuring distance to determine the radiant flux for the XP-E2 photo red emitter used in the C01R flashlight. But as a worst case, their minimum was on the order of 450mW @ 350mA current.
They have wavelength bin P5 that ranges from 665 to 670nm, if someone wanted to push toward a custom emitter for mitochondria stimulation.

The flashlight specs indicate 3 modes with 0.5, 9, and 36 lumens, but no current values for the modes.

the fine print:
ref: https://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/XLampXPE2.pdf

Vision Advisory
WARNING: Do not look at an exposed lamp in operation. Eye injury can result. For more information about LEDs and eye safety, please refer to the LED Eye Safety application note.

[edit: it seems that it should be possible to calculate the irradiance (mW/cm^2) that is hitting the pupils if the flashlight was mounted at a fixed distance from the face—but i think the measurement distance of the 450mW in the datasheet must be known first. Anybody have a clue on that?]

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Found this 940nm SK98 for sale @ FastTech. As a zoomie it should project around ⅔ of its rated emitter output out the front in flood, in an ultra evenly distributed blanket of near infrared light. I wonder about the type and quality of the driver it employs, as the ∅20mm one inside the more standard XM-L2 version is a quite poor unregulated MOSFET (9435 p-FET) high / low / strobe unit.

Is this flashlight probably meant to be used with night vision devices? 

Please avoid fully quoting lenghty posts, namely with nested quotes. Trim quotes down to the essential. Helps with neatness and legibility. Thanks.

The human mind, and its programming, is at the forefront of a particular battle of The Light vs evil dark forces. Nearly every human being on this beautiful planet “Earth” has some sort of negative mind programming in its mind. And you better take care of your mind programming, or someone else will in this wicked world.

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Wavelengths are 670nm- approx 1000nm. energies were around 40mW/cm2 to start with. This was filtered, but we now have as good effects with much much lower power output. There is no real dose response curve – the effect is more switch like. 3 mins as good as 15. >1h and the effects are reduced.

The process is often termed photobiomodulation. There is a lot of literature out there, look for names like Mitrofanis J. Kern T., Eells J., etc,…

Hi Glen and thank you for posting here and offering to respond if possible: I read through all your literature on PubMed and find your results wonderfully interesting and exciting for the future of medicine.

Especially that mornings are the vbest time for mitochondrial stimulation. he life of mitochondria reveals shifting workloads ATP levels by contrast are >40% greater in the morning and lowest at night when glycolysis peaks. Complex activity modulation was at the protein level with no evidence for differential transcription over the day. Timing differences between increased ATP production and peaks of complex activity may result from more efficient ATP production early in the day leaving complex activity with spare capacity. Optical stimulation of mitochondria is only possible in the mornings when there is such spare capacity.

If 10am is the time to do it for mice then it is OK for me too! Smile

One question in regard to photobiomodulation . All your references to light power use figures like (40 mW/cm2, 36 J in total)

I am a layperson with zero biological or scientific knowledge: what does this figure represent?
I bought a ‘Sofirn C01R Red light Keychain Flashlight Cree XPE2 660nm Deep RED LED bulb’ which has varying beam strength on different settings and can be quite intense on the highest setting. I can measure it in lumens with a light meter but how do lumens convert to the settings you use? Is there a conversion formula?

Oh and can one close the eyelid or is it best to maintain the colour and keep the eye open?

As a 66 year old film colourist with excellent colour perception I am only interested in maintaining my career as I age further.
I don’t want to blind myself in the process!

Thank again.

Jacek

hank
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Quote:

Hank

Did the researchers get sent a Sofirn red light yet by anyone?


Quote:

jon_slider

I thought you had already done that, no?

No.
I have not sent the researchers a light, I’m wondering if anyone did. I’d gladly chip in to encourage them to try the Sofirn red emitter.

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This has gotten me curious about building a simple measurement device for the radiant power. There used to be some ics TSL 235, 237… from Texas Optical to convert light intensity to either a frequency pulse or in some cases an amplified analog voltage proportional to the irradiance (mW/cm^2).

i ordered a photo red flashlight just to do this test and maybe the mitochondria testing also, but hopefully i can get some data about the C01R radiant power vs distance.

Now i used to think that i was cool,
drivin' around on fossil fuel,
until i saw what i was doin',
was drivin' down the road to ruin. --JT

jon_slider
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Hikelite wrote:
jon_slider wrote:
So I modded this Titanium beauty, and Im shining it at my stubbed toe..

This looks clearly like a 620nm, because of the orange-yellow center
Deeper reds like 660nm have more magenta there than orange-yellow.
That is a bit of a rule of thumb do differentiate between reds with the eyes.


you have very well trained eyes, and are absolutely correct

I received a comparison photo
thanks to Andy Zhu

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Everyone to his own. Quoting again to Glen Jeffery:

g.jeffery@@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

Wavelengths are 670nm- approx 1000nm. energies were around 40mW/cm2 to start with. This was filtered, but we now have as good effects with much much lower power output. There is no real dose response curve - the effect is more switch like. 3 mins as good as 15. >1h and the effects are reduced.

The process is often termed photobiomodulation. There is a lot of literature out there, look for names like Mitrofanis J. Kern T., Eells J., etc,...

Far red emitters are ≈730nm. This is still visible and better suited for this photo-stimulation thing. Or are you waiting for someone else to come here and say this?

This stuff sort of draws my attention, but at this point I have plenty of other things to mess with, though. 

jon_slider wrote:

I received a comparison photo
thanks to Andy Zhu

Thanks for this comparative photograph.

Please avoid fully quoting lenghty posts, namely with nested quotes. Trim quotes down to the essential. Helps with neatness and legibility. Thanks.

The human mind, and its programming, is at the forefront of a particular battle of The Light vs evil dark forces. Nearly every human being on this beautiful planet “Earth” has some sort of negative mind programming in its mind. And you better take care of your mind programming, or someone else will in this wicked world.

jon_slider
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Barkuti wrote:
730nm. This is still visible and better suited for this photo-stimulation thing.

better how?

Ive read that green also works
do you disagre?

if different studies get results from different spectra
that suggests the active ingredient is energy, not color

I think what color does, is change depth of penetration

hank
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Quote:
g.jeffery@@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

Wavelengths are 670nm- approx 1000nm. energies were around 40mW/cm2 to start with. This was filtered, but we now have as good effects with much much lower power output. There is no real dose response curve – the effect is more switch like. 3 mins as good as 15. >1h and the effects are reduced.

Are you still here?

Got any data on how long the effect persists? Is regular redosing with light necessary to maintain the effect?

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hank wrote:
Is regular redosing with light necessary to maintain the effect?

imo yes

the link in post #1 says redosing was done daily:

for three minutes a day for two weeks.

I found it suprising that the benefit is only for people over 40.

g.jeffery@ucl.ac.uk
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Effects from 2-3 mins lasts about 3 days. No point in saying this to some people as they forget which day they used it – so say daily as there is no harm in it.

Green does not work – mitochondria do not absorb green light. A company has incorporated green into one device to make it more complex and protect their patent.

Longer wavelength penetrate deeper in tissue – so labs doing this in brain use 810nm or longer, which is beyond the human visual range.

No point in trying to work out wavelengths with your eye. You need a spectrometer

Best
Glen

Glen Jeffery

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Green does not work – mitochondria do not absorb green light.

thank you

I suppose green light speeds wound healing by a different mechanism than energizing mitochondria

Green light emitting diodes accelerate wound healing

“(LEDs) … have photobiostimulative effects on tissue repair.

we investigated the effects of … green (518 nm) LEDs on wound healing.

wound sizes in the skin of … mice were significantly decreased on day 7 following exposure to green LEDs

In conclusion, we demonstrate that green LEDs promote wound healing”

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I’m unsure of this. Not everything published is correct, particularly if there is a commercial interest behind it. But as you say it could be simply by another mechanism e.g. all light carries energy which can improve circulation, which in turn will likely improve wound healing

Glen Jeffery

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How big is the effect in practice? I understand statistical significance, but I realize that could mean an effect that’s reliably detectable but trivial for actual daily life purposes.

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Reasonable point. Most people don’t detect anything obvious, although a couple of subjects did pass comment on colour perception changing. However the effect is robust when tested. One subject had a 20% improvement in colour contrast, which is not only significant but will impact on daily life.

Many things happen to your visual system that you do not detect. Glaucoma is a good example. There is significant slow peripheral visual loss that is often not detected directly until people start bumping into things that they walk by. The visual system slowly corrects for problems, it re-sets the gain control gradually, but over years things are lost. By the time you are 70 you have lost 30% of your central photoreceptors, but it’s a slow change and you only notice it when forced to make a visual judgement. People certainly notice loss of sensitivity in reduced lighting when they have to dark adapt and we have been working hard on that. We measure how long it takes them to adapt and show them the times and they are surprised how long it has taken. We show then show the times again after 670nm exposure and its obvious there is an improvement.

Our improvements will likely make a difference when you have to make a visual decision e.g. can you see something in the dark, can you detect a subtle colour shift. Its all about paying visual attention, which we often fail to do.

Sorry if the is a bit of a ramble but your point is important because people don’t know about how subtle visual decline is until a critical decision is needed. I think that is where it is obvious.

Glen Jeffery

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Thank you! This is really helpful. Please ramble as much as you like.

I had early cataracts (in my late 30s) abd one intraocular lens [IOL] replacement surgery, and when I asked the eye surgeon what other kind of changes I might expect with age, he just shook his head and said “You don’t want to know.”

But ya know, I really do want to know what to expect. Past age 70, one cataract IOL later, and eyedrops for glaucoma in that eye, and my vision is still my favorite sense. Much appreciate your participation here.
It’s become apparent that the yellowing of the lens affects us flashlight users, as people’s perception of color varies quite a lot.

PS, I got one of the last IOLs that don’t block ultraviolet, which means I can see further into the UV range in that eye than in normal eyes. Like this guy, who documents the UV vision effect: https://www.komar.org/faq/colorado-cataract-surgery-crystalens/ultra-vio...

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That is interesting – when/if I get around to needing my lenses changed I was going to see if I can have UV permissive ones. I have less concerns than others about UV. The cornea still blocks a lot.

Humans/primates are one of the few mammals that actively block UV: See :https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2013.2995

And many actively use UV: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2011/may/reindeer-use-uv-light-survive-wild

Glen Jeffery

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Interesting discussion between Dileep George and Lex Fridman about vision and visual cortex in the brain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K1XH8iClfY

Short summary:
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.”
- Henri Bergson

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I could not see any datasheet to show a clear 670nm as a dominant wavelength for a red LED, while most they do have a bit of 670nm or they can be specified as range rather than a dominant they are only residual at 670nm and 660nm is the dominant wavelength anyway.
Would you share some of these dominant 670nm red LEDs datasheets that you have tested?
Since I see a massive emphasis on 670nm like it would be a standard red LED and it is not, or what exactly is the point of using this exact number of 670nm unless we can actually have one to buy.

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Research in the field that was started>15 years ago used 670nm. Partly this was due to a device that I think is not longer on the marked called a Warp that most labs used. There was no general interest in the public having access to 670nm as all of the research was animal based with only about 20 labs working on it. Since then it has expanded with a demand for 670nm LEDS – Try Epigap they normally stock them

https://www.epigap-optronic.de/en/led.html

All LEDs will have a dominant wavelength and a normally distributed wavelength spread. As long as 670nm is within the half power bandwidth it will probably have some effect. Sorry I’ve not retained data sheets. We check and throw out what is incorrect. This varies with batches even from the same supplier.

Best
Glen

Glen Jeffery

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Hank Wang from https://intl-outdoor.com/ just told me that his SST-20-DR leds are 670nm for now. I don’t know if that number was measured or if it is the manufacturer bin.

SST-20-DR is advertised as a 660nm led, but according to the data sheet it has 6 chromaticity bins, between 640nm and 670nm.
https://download.luminus.com/datasheets/PDS-003040-Rev-04-SST-20-DR.pdf

You can order a custom Emisar or Noctigon flashlight from him with SST-20-DR leds if you email him. Emisar D4V2 and Emisar D4SV2 can both be made with these leds. You can find his email on the website. I purchased both and I like the larger D4SV2 more, because it has a more throwy beam.

EDIT: I updated this post because those SST-20-DR leds were actually D5 chromaticity bin, 660nm-665nm.

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I’ve had severe myalgic encephalitis for the last 10 years and a couple of years ago my mitochondrial function was measured to be well below normal which, as you can imagine, causes a myriad of issues.
My knowledge is a mix of scientific fact and non-scientific self-observation so difficult to quantify, but before i knew about the mitochondrial dysfunction i looked at infra-red light to see it’s effect on certain issues and discovered that looking at an infra-red heater panel for a few minutes ‘relaxed’ my eyes and benefited my eyesight and light sensitivity. (Caveat: I was far enough away from the panel to not feel any change in temperature on my eyes, don’t want to burn them!)

Obviously the research stated in this thread could go some way to explaining that but the reason i’m saying this is because although this is a torch… ok, flashlight forum an infrared panel might be more conducive to this health application given that it is a far less focused source of light.
Although sticking a DR/IR LED in a suitable host is far more in keeping with the nature of this forum Big Smile

It is also worth me stating that the light from the 660nm XP-E2 in the C01R relaxes my eyes whereas the 620nm XP-E and XM-L colour that i also have fatigue them, i actually prefer white LEDs to 620nm LEDs.

And, if it is of benefit to Glen i have a new C01R i can send which is already in England.

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I tend to agree with you re the panel particularly for systemic mitochondrial disease. This is a bit off fields for me, but its where some good researchers are going who are working on Parkinson’s etc, which has a mitochondrial basis. The other bit that adds to the potential strength of the approach is that we know mitochondria in different parts of the body talk to one another and can communicate about health status and shift as a consequence. After all, mitochondria regulate ageing and generally the organs in our bodies age at similar rates, although the retina leads.

However, for many of us it has been a long journey to get people/scientific community to believe in what we are doing. To then go and tell them to direct the light on a part of the body that is not the focus of pathology is problematic. But there is a very solid scientist in the USA who has improved retinal function in rodents by focusing light on the back of the animal. Not quite as good as focusing on the retina, but impressive.

It’s a fast moving field and while I can put my hand on my heart and say this is all working and showing improvements, I and others are very aware that there is a lot we do not know.

Best
Glen

Glen Jeffery

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Science!

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I wanted to try this “method”,so I searched around the Internet and fount some multi led deep red lights on Amazon,named ABI deep red grow lights,with different power.They say that they are of 660nm.
Being in a hurry,as a friend was to come in Athens,I told her to buy two of them,one with 12W power,and the other with 24W,as I didn’t know exactly the details.She gave me these today,and I tried one at a time.
The result is that the big one,is way strong,so it is not possible to look at this,even from a far distance.The 12W one,is more tolerable,but not very.I tried from about 1.5m far,but the light is very strong.So,I will try this from a 3m distance and will see.If I have a result,I right about.
These lights have a fan inside,because of the heat which the leds produce.

jon_slider
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for those interested in red LEDs to install themselves
Cree-XP-E2-Photo-Red-660nm

A host I like:
Tool AAA

for those that just want to pay and play,
here is a Photo Red in a twisty host

kennybobby
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Theodore41 wrote:
I wanted to try this “method”…

The result is that the big one,is way strong,so it is not possible to look at this,even from a far distance.

These lights have a fan inside,because of the heat which the leds produce.

Way too much power! and you need to use a diffuser such as a piece of waxed paper or optical film. Don’t look at a bare LED.

Vision Advisory
WARNING: Do not look at an exposed lamp in operation. Eye injury can result.

Now i used to think that i was cool,
drivin' around on fossil fuel,
until i saw what i was doin',
was drivin' down the road to ruin. --JT

Theodore41
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kennybobby wrote:
Theodore41 wrote:
I wanted to try this “method”…

The result is that the big one,is way strong,so it is not possible to look at this,even from a far distance.

These lights have a fan inside,because of the heat which the leds produce.

Way too much power! and you need to use a diffuser such as a piece of waxed paper or optical film. Don’t look at a bare LED.

Vision Advisory
WARNING: Do not look at an exposed lamp in operation. Eye injury can result.


Thank you very much,appreciate. Smile

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