Misc. stupid questions ;)

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fishinfool
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Misc. stupid questions ;)

Aloha guys!  These questions might sound stupid to you experts but I just have to ask them so please bear with me (the noob).

 

1.  When using the Refresh/Analyze mode on the C9000, do you use the default rates of 1000ma charge and 500ma discharge?  If so, do you do it for both the AA's and AAA's?  If not then what charge and discharge rates do you use for the AA and AAA?

 

2.  Can you check how much mAh and volts are left in a partially discharged battery using the C9000?  Or do you need a muti-meter to do that?  Can it even be done with a multi-meter?

 

3.  What rates when plain charging or plain discharging?

 

4.  Isn't the Cycle mode the same as the Break-in Mode?

 

You know these won't be the last of my stupid questions. lol

Thanks guys!

Don wrote:

"But as I said long ago, you are more likely to be killed by a dead fish dropped by a seagull in the Sahara Desert than by a lithium ion

Edited by: fishinfool on 03/13/2010 - 03:41
alfreddajero
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1.  When using the Refresh/Analyze mode on the C9000, do you use the default rates of 1000ma charge and 500ma discharge?  If so, do you do it for both the AA's and AAA's?  If not then what charge and discharge rates do you use for the AA and AAA?

 It really depends on the individual, i tend to stick with 1.5-1.6 charge and 800ma for discharge.  And for AAA's i use 800ma for charge and 500ma for discharge.

 

2.  Can you check how much mAh and volts are left in a partially discharged battery using the C9000?  Or do you need a muti-meter to do that?  Can it even be done with a multi-meter?

No you cant unless they came out with some new Hi Tec Dmm as of late......you can check for partial discharge capacity using the C9000 by inputting a discharge amperage on the cell.

 

3.  What rates when plain charging or plain discharging?

Again for me this is up too the individual........AAA's i keep them at 1amp down to 800ma depending on the quality of the cells.  You will find that a lot of cells will get really warm at the end of the charge.  For AA's i like to use 1.5-1.6 amps for charge and discharge i keep it at 1amp.

 

4.  Isn't the Cycle mode the same as the Break-in Mode?

 No its not the same bud, because in cycle mode one's able to input the charge and discharge of each cell and how many cycles the cells will get, and in break-in all one's doing is inputting the rated capacity of the cells and each cell is charged at 0.1c which usually takes about 3 days for the batts to complete.  This is right from there site.

 

Also known as IEC capacity measurement and "Battery Forming". Charges battery at 0.1C for 16 hours, rest for one hour, discharges battery at 0.2C, then recharges again at 0.1C for 16 hours.
 

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

brted
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fishinfool wrote:
1.  When using the Refresh/Analyze mode on the C9000, do you use the default rates of 1000ma charge and 500ma discharge?  If so, do you do it for both the AA's and AAA's?  If not then what charge and discharge rates do you use for the AA and AAA?

 

You are supposed to pick a charge rate based on C, the capacity of the battery. So if you have a 2000 mAh battery, then C=2000. The correct charge rate is 0.5C to 1C. I figure 0.5C (0.5*2000=1000) is better, but I typically use just a little lower: 800 mA. Discharge rate for whatever reason seems to be half of the charge rate, so 0.25C to 0.5C. I don't know how much it matters, so if I do a R/A cycle I might use 800/400. For AAA batteries, C is only 800 mAh, so using 0.5C is 400 mA for charging and 200 mA for discharging.

 

Quote:
2.  Can you check how much mAh and volts are left in a partially discharged battery using the C9000?  Or do you need a muti-meter to do that?  Can it even be done with a multi-meter?

 

The only way to really tell how much capacity is left in a battery is to discharge it. There are battery testers that can take a pretty good guess by measuring the performance under a brief load, but the C9000 can't do it except by discharging the battery and measuring it. The voltage in NiMH batteries falls off, then levels out for a while, then falls off at the end pretty fast. So if you are on the plateau in the middle, you will have a hard time knowing how much is left. Plus you really need to measure the voltage under a load, so most multimeters can't do it.

 

Quote:
3.  What rates when plain charging or plain discharging?

 

See answer 1.

 

Quote:
4.  Isn't the Cycle mode the same as the Break-in Mode?

 

No. Break-in is supposedly a "forming charge" that helps the internal chemistry of the battery. I'm not sure I buy that. The break-in cycle of applying 0.1C for 16 hours and then discharging at 0.2C is actually the industry standard for how you test the capacity of a battery, nothing more. There are people on CPF who know more about this stuff than I do (Silverfox) that swear by the break-in charge though.

alfreddajero
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When in doubt heres a good chart to go by......as you can see i dont follow the C rate guide lines.  At those charge rates im not willing to wait.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

Don
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The only stupid question is the one you don't ask. I prefer to charge my Eneloops at around 700mA, the stuff of under 2000mAh which I use as beaters get charged at 2000mA or even 8000mA if I want them charged in a tearing hurry and don't care about how long they are going to live. 15 minute chargers kill cells fast.

 

Discharge rates: Many of the lights  reviewed here take up to 2 or more amps out of the cells, Eneloops hold their voltage up to around 8 amps which is more than all but the silliest lights use. Anything below 2A will be fine - but capacity drops with a rise in current - Eneloops will not produce 2000mAh at an 8 amp current draw. Neither will any other NiMH cell - they are all lower capacity at higher discharge rates.

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

fishinfool
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I think I'll stick with the default charging and discharging rates of the C9000 since they are pretty close to what you suggested and it's the easiest thing for a noob.  I also plan on ordering one of the ZTS multi-battery testers to test batteries before I do anything with them. 

Thanks guys! 

Don wrote:

"But as I said long ago, you are more likely to be killed by a dead fish dropped by a seagull in the Sahara Desert than by a lithium ion

alfreddajero
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Glad are info was helpful

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

fishinfool
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Ok here's another one:

What's the big deal with all these different kinds of flashlight batteries?  123's, 18650's, 14500's, etc.?  I bought AA flashlights because they are the most popular and can be found anywhere.

Don wrote:

"But as I said long ago, you are more likely to be killed by a dead fish dropped by a seagull in the Sahara Desert than by a lithium ion

alfreddajero
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Sorry but i cant answer that one.....that is a hard one though.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

brted
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SureFire lights all use CR123A's, so I think that's how those got started. They are small and have fairly high voltage (3V each). I think lithium-ion's got matched up with LED's because the LED's seem to have a minimum voltage requirement of around 3-4 volts, so with a lithium-ion (3.6 - 4.2V) you can direct drive the LED or use a minimal amount of boost. The 18650's are about the size of 2 CR123A's. People would bore out their SureFire lights to fit them in there. Plus 18650's are used in laptop battery packs, so they were available.

There are way too many battery sizes and configurations. AA's and AAA's are always a good choice since you can get them anywhere, but I have a few lights that only take li-ion batteries now. I got started on li-ion batteries to use in my 1xAAA iTP A3 EOS and it is really impressive with a 10440 in there. Then I wanted to to try a P60 compatible light which takes an 18650 (not all P60's do). Then I started looking for a really bright light using a P7 LED and was told they worked best with 2 18650's. It's a 12-step program towards addiction.

fishinfool
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Thanks brted!  It's getting a little too complicated for me so I think I'll stick with the AAA and AA battery flashlights for now until I learn more about this. Maybe there are college courses for batteries and flashlights that I can take. lol 

 

What have I gotten myself into?  surprise

Don wrote:

"But as I said long ago, you are more likely to be killed by a dead fish dropped by a seagull in the Sahara Desert than by a lithium ion

brted
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fishinfool wrote:
Thanks brted!  It's getting a little too complicated for me so I think I'll stick with the AAA and AA battery flashlights for now until I learn more about this. Maybe there are college courses for batteries and flashlights that I can take.

 

It feels almost like a college course how much I have learned about flashlights over the last year. Candle Power Forums has a ton of great information, but you do have to hunt through everything and the problem with a discussion area is that you have to wade through a lot of posts where people may not have the whole story until 20 posts down the thread or the information, while correct, is now out of date. I've done a lot of work on the CPF Wiki to try to keep things straight (for myself, but also for any other freshmen) and up-to-date, but a lot of that Wiki is a couple of years old.

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Hey Brtd do you think you can ask the Admin to put your link on the left side of the forum......so this way its easy for all of us to get to or add it to your sigline.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

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fishinfool wrote:

Ok here's another one:

What's the big deal with all these different kinds of flashlight batteries?  123's, 18650's, 14500's, etc.?  I bought AA flashlights because they are the most popular and can be found anywhere.

 

Dunno, but AA is all I need and all I buy!  To each his own, though.  I have learned from the guys here that there are some incredible 18650 budget lights out there, which I would seriously consider for myself and probably recommend to others.

 

Great question fishinfool and thanks for the professional responses Al and Don!

Budget Light Forum ...where Frugal meets with Flashlight!

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Thanks man........should help others as well.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.

 

 

fishinfool
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Thanks guys!  I'll stick with the new flashlights I just ordered for now until I become more knowledgeable about batteries and flashlights.  That could take a while though. lol   There's SO much to learn.

Don wrote:

"But as I said long ago, you are more likely to be killed by a dead fish dropped by a seagull in the Sahara Desert than by a lithium ion

alfreddajero
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Your going to want to sooner, might be sooner though especially if you have a light that likes more voltage.  You will notice how brighter the light is.

With Darkness, there will always be Light.