Coronavirus discussion thread

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caramba
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NorthernHarrier wrote:

There is no evidence to support that rumor. The rumor was spread on social media after Scott Jensen, a Minnesota state legislator, discussed medicare payments to hospitals for treating Covid-19 patients on Fox News. But during the interview Jensen explained that, while Medicare had begun paying hospitals for treating Covid-19 patients, there are no payments to hospitals at all simply for classifying a patient as having the virus. And there are no financial incentives for classifying a death as due to Covid-19, when it was not.

OK you might be right, but don’t the hospitals during pandemic get paid by county or city? Or is it just a loan? I think they reopened hospitals that were already permanently closed for a while. Something like that takes some serious money.

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Deputy Dog wrote:
Are you suggesting that it is the front line doctors and nurses who are the only ones who have access to that kind of data? To answer your question, as someone who has investigated a few crimes in my day, YES data is being manipulated by somebody. Likely many somebodies.

Well, it’s like Lenin said, it’s not who votes that determines elections, it’s who counts the votes, and, well, you know…

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pennzy
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Vladimir or John?

Lightbringer
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STFU, Donny! V. I. Lenin! Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov…

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Deputy Dog
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NorthernHarrior

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I find it difficult to understand why people get their kicks promoting totally unsupported conspiracy theories impugning the character of people working in dangerous conditions or in thankless government jobs during an emergency, trying to help people and earn a living like anyone else. Promoting false information about serious subjects can hurt people, and in this pandemic it already has.

You just need to take human nature into account. There are a few things going on. Are you saying there is No evidence of Medicare fraud? Have you been to the hospital lately? I can’t remember the last hospital bill I’ve seen that didn’t have any errors.

I see Lightbringer brings up a good point about how the tests are counted. It’s not that the individuals are being told they are + when they’re – or the other way around. It’s how the the count is taken. We’ve seen the reports of not counting/reporting negatives in Florida.

pennzy
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Lightbringer wrote:
Deputy Dog wrote:
Are you suggesting that it is the front line doctors and nurses who are the only ones who have access to that kind of data? To answer your question, as someone who has investigated a few crimes in my day, YES data is being manipulated by somebody. Likely many somebodies.

Well, it’s like Lenin said, it’s not who votes that determines elections, it’s who counts the votes, and, well, you know…


History really does repeat itself. Kinda sorta like today with the “the election is rigged, unless I win” rhetoric.
Deputy Dog
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It looks like pennzy has complete faith in the system. We will see in November, assuming we know who wins by then.

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Complete? Nah, enough though unless shown some facts to the contrary.

Deputy Dog
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Pennzy

Forgive me, but I live in NJ. I just saw a news story about the ballots just found from the primary back in July. That comes on the heals of this story from an election back in may. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/19/nyregion/nj-election-mail-voting-frau...

I also know of many other ballot/election injustices over the years. One involving a State mental institution in a small town.

My guess is that human nature is human nature in PA as well as in NJ.

Edited to add: What’s the difference between ballots and covid19 tests?

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Any close election in this country is going to turn into a mess. Our system is not set up to get to the nitty gritty. As long as it is not close I feel the system is going to do fine. Get out and vote everyone.

NorthernHarrier
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Deputy Dog wrote:
NorthernHarrior
Quote:
I find it difficult to understand why people get their kicks promoting totally unsupported conspiracy theories impugning the character of people working in dangerous conditions or in thankless government jobs during an emergency, trying to help people and earn a living like anyone else. Promoting false information about serious subjects can hurt people, and in this pandemic it already has.

You just need to take human nature into account. There are a few things going on. Are you saying there is No evidence of Medicare fraud? Have you been to the hospital lately? I can’t remember the last hospital bill I’ve seen that didn’t have any errors.

I see Lightbringer brings up a good point about how the tests are counted. It’s not that the individuals are being told they are + when they’re – or the other way around. It’s how the the count is taken. We’ve seen the reports of not counting/reporting negatives in Florida.

I never said there is no Medicare fraud overall. I’m not going to entertain off-topic subjects and arguments that have nothing to do with what we have been discussing in this thread.

As for the counting of Covid-19 deaths, we have been over and over the issues about counting deaths in this thread. The overwhelming consensus of medical experts is that the deaths have been substantially under-counted overall, not over-counted. There are different methods of counting from state to state, and as we’ve discussed, political considerations and pushing to re-open states as soon as possible have also led to changes in how various states are counting deaths. But the overall excess death counts show that the nation is at about 200,000 in excess deaths for the past six months or so. That is consistent with the overall death count reported in the major media.

Here are a few articles on the subject of counting deaths, as I know you’ve been relying on others to provide evidence related to the issues you bring up:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/about-30-covid-deaths-may-not-be-classified-such
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

hank
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There is no evidence to support that rumor. The rumor was spread on social media after Scott Jensen, a Minnesota state legislator, discussed medicare payments to hospitals for treating Covid-19 patients on Fox News.

Thank you for the reality check.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/07/13/truth/

Deputy Dog
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NorthernHarrier

You could be right. Maybe we did we get that much better (15 times better suddenly 6 months ago) at counting since H1N1 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/swine-flu-h1n1-pandemic-deaths-15-times-hi... (It does seem strange that it took 3 years to figure that out.)

I hope we did. But, we have to ask what changed and why. Not to mention the way people use the numbers in political attacks, and I don’t necessarily blame the doctors for that.

hank
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> maybe we did get that much better ….

As the article points out, this is unsurprising:

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That’s a pretty wide gap in death rates, but it’s not unusual. The numbers of flu deaths confirmed by lab tests usually understate how many people actually died from the virus, simply because most doctors around the world don’t have the time or the resources to test their patients for the virus and report cases to health authorities.

“This is a problem year in and year out, from London to Nairobi,” said Dr. William Schaffner, chair of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center. “It’s so difficult to test everyone with influenza.”

Deputy Dog
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This is exactly to type of thing I’ve been talking about: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/leaked-emails-show-nashville-mayor-s-o...

Just for the record, you can’t blame the doctors for this.

Wouldn’t you call covering up the truth, exaggerating? While this story wasn’t about total death numbers it does show how good numbers are hidden for political reasons. I’m sure this type of thing is being done with death numbers as well to make thing appear worse/higher than they actually are.

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Lightbringer wrote:
Rexlion wrote:
By the way, the aliens have landed! In Antarctica! They were going to take over the entire earth!

No no no, they ain’t extraterrestrials. That’s a common misconception. Them’s just the Nazi bases in Antarctica founded by the Thule Society way back when.

The only aliens there are xenomorph eggs, but they’re dormant (for now).

Oops I think these aliens are embedded, I see their vehicles at least every other day

I never finished watching the video about a lot of patents being forgeries, was it a hoax?

how crazy is this
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Deputy Dog wrote:
I’m sure this type of thing is being done with death numbers as well to make thing appear worse/higher than they actually are.

So the mass graves in NYC and Brasil, convoys of military trucks carrying bodies to cremation sites in Italy, scores of refrigerated trucks as temporary morgues all over the world were some kind of political stunt? Accuracy can always be debated and certainly there are distortions. When the death industry is overwhelmed all over the world deaths are certainly significantly higher than usual.

As for death numbers, given a few months to work things through, they are probably one of the most accurate numbers we can count on. Nothing certain like death and taxes. Cause of death is certainly not straight forward. Death is. Total mortality is significantly higher than normal. That is not a political statement. Those numbers are not politically manipulated but take time to completely record. Some may try to take advantage of that delay to distort the picture but we certainly have a clear picture from March, April, and May by now. Saying the numbers are distorted to inflate death is simply not accurate.

Deputy Dog
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So the mass graves in NYC and Brasil, convoys of military trucks carrying bodies to cremation sites in Italy, scores of refrigerated trucks as temporary morgues all over the world were some kind of political stunt?

I never said anything of the sort.

Quote:
Some may try to take advantage of that delay to distort the picture but we certainly have a clear picture from March, April, and May by now. Saying the numbers are distorted to inflate death is simply not accurate.

Distorting the lethality of certain activities for political gain or a power trip, is wrong on so many levels. My guess is you never read the story. Go ahead justify this guy.

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I was determined not to respond to the latest of the many posts trying vainly to convince us that the nation-wide reported death and infection numbers must be significantly overinflated from the real numbers, because 1) “I’m sure” that is the case; or 2) there is one isolated case of city officials not publicly saying there haven’t been a lot of cases traced to restaurants or bars in that one city. I fear we’re all just encouraging more of the same by responding.

Oh well. One more time. Contact tracing isn’t always straightforward. We don’t know how good that particular city’s data was. Maybe the officials had good reason not to release the data yet, because it wasn’t definite enough, or it was incomplete, or they feared it was incorrect.

More fundamentally, it’s also a huge leap to go from that one story to assuming that the state and national infection and death numbers are significantly overinflated. That doesn’t make any sense. The fact that they didn’t publicize in the press the number of cases traced to bars/restaurants has nothing to do with whether the infection and death totals were accurately reported to the authorities.

In addition, the results in that one city that were reported at that one moment in time aren’t necessarily going to be the results they’ll see from now on. And they definitely aren’t similar to results in many other places – as this article says:
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200812/many-community-outbreaks-of-covid-traced-to-restaurants-bars

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If the death numbers are not inflated, there still remains the fact that the inordinate, disproportional number of early deaths in the US (back then we had 25% of the Covid deaths but less than 5% of the world’s population) was patently, prima facie unnatural.

A number of factors could theoretically explain an unnatural number of US deaths, though. Keep in mind that the virus originated in a country which is being greatly imposed upon by the US government in the form of trade tariffs. Can one visualize ways in which an airborne, aerosolized virus can be spread in large buildings? Through HVAC and ventilation systems, perhaps? Can one imagine a motive for harming a group of people by whom another group feels harmed or threatened? I’m just introducing one of several possible scenarios.

Another scenario would be the development and dispersal of a virus by an elite power group who hopes to create havoc and eventually induce major change. Other scenarios might perhaps be envisioned as well. The point is, when something unnatural occurs, one should look for an unnatural origin or root cause. By any logic, a sudden and poorly-understood viral outbreak should have its greatest impact near its ‘ground zero’ origin, not on the opposite side of the globe.

NorthernHarrier
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There is nothing unnatural about the number of COVID-19 deaths in the USA. You can’t rationally compare the number of deaths in the USA with the numbers in China, as China’s numbers were very likely not reported to the international media accurately.

We have many posts in this thread already explaining the differences in the numbers of cases and deaths in various countries. There are differences in timing of public knowledge of the outbreak relative to when the virus started taking hold, differences in when mitigation measures were recommended and implemented, differences in population distribution, differences in living customs that effect how effective various mitigation measures will be, differences in when government recommended and or mandated mitigation measures were started in the course of the spread, differences in how well and how long citizens followed the recommendations and mandates, and whether policies were done on a national or piecemeal basis. Ask yourself this: how could the piecemeal, state by state, town by town, mitigation strategies work in the USA, when we have never done enough testing and contact tracing to know who is infected and who is not? The answer is that they can’t.

If the USA was targeted, why is there no evidence of that? Why were many other countries inundated with infections before the USA? Why is the entire international scientific community who investigated the origin concluding that the virus had natural origins?

Yeah, widespread weaponizing of a virus could cause chaos in a target country. So can weaponizing conspiracy theories and false information about important issues to spread fear and anger in that country, as we’ve seen demonstrated in the USA.

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Just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/china-lab-leak-infects-thous...

My brother is a veterinarian and said Brucellosis will make your balls swell so much you’ll need a bigger pants size. I thought he was joking.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/brucellosis/symptoms-caus...

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Health officials in Lanzhou city said 3,245 people had contracted brucellosis… Another 1,401 people tested as an early positive for the disease, and health authorities said there was no evidence of person-to-person transmission so far.

Uh, ok. They said that about Covid less than a year ago.

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pennzy wrote:
Atlanta — Georgia’s governor, who has opposed local mask mandates and even sued over one in Atlanta, has signed a new executive order that allows local governments to enact mask requirements to help fight the coronavirus pandemic

This is one reason why American deaths are at a higher rate than others. Without a national coherent approach to stopping the spread it was like having a peeing section in a public pool.

The water used to be clear. But now… there’s definitely a yellowish tinge to it. Uneven approach across the nation is responsible for the mess we’re in, and that all trickles up.
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NorthernHarrier wrote:
If the USA was targeted, why is there no evidence of that? Why were many other countries inundated with infections before the USA? Why is the entire international scientific community who investigated the origin concluding that the virus had natural origins?

Yeah, widespread weaponizing of a virus could cause chaos in a target country. So can weaponizing conspiracy theories and false information about important issues to spread fear and anger in that country, as we’ve seen demonstrated in the USA.

You’re arguing with the wrong person, because the mind won’t be changed. We tried months ago. #COVID19 was not engineered nor purposefully disseminated. Had someone tried to do it, it would’ve happened far differently. And China would’ve been totally prepared for it, citing their “superior advanced medicine.”
Deputy Dog
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NorthernHarrier

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More fundamentally, it’s also a huge leap to go from that one story to assuming that the state and national infection and death numbers are significantly overinflated. That doesn’t make any sense. The fact that they didn’t publicize in the press the number of cases traced to bars/restaurants has nothing to do with whether the infection and death totals were accurately reported to the authorities.

I actually think WE want the same thing. We both want clarity. You don’t have to inflate actual numbers to distort what they mean. Numbers don’t always give a complete picture. I get nervous when someone gives me numbers then says here is what you need to know. Like THEY actually know what’s best for me.

For example: When did anyone know early on what % of deaths/infections were happening in nursing homes?

Failing/forgetting to report to the press is one thing, but to hide things is another. The sad thing is, is that it happens most of the time.

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Deputy Dog wrote:
Failing/forgetting to report to the press is one thing, but to hide things is another. The sad thing is, is that it happens most of the time.

“It is sad that governments are chiefed by the double-tongues.”
— Ten Bears

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Rexlion
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I get the impression that if I said it stands to reason that the sky is blue, someone would chime in to explain that blue skies are a fallacy and that I’ve fallen for a blue-sky conspiracy hoax.

JaredM
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Rexlion wrote:
I get the impression that if I said it stands to reason that the sky is blue, someone would chime in to explain that blue skies are a fallacy and that I’ve fallen for a blue-sky conspiracy hoax.

DUDE

It’s black

Beer

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