High CRI... not what I expected?

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eicca
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High CRI... not what I expected?

Got my Skilhunt H04 today. Fabulous light, love the customizable secondary UI mode. I don’t really see much difference with the high-CRI LD351D emitter compared to all my other lights (Fenix, Olight, etc) and whatever ~70 CRI emitters they use. Colors look a hair more dull in the other beams, but it’s not quite the drastic difference I was expecting.

Oh well, it was a good excuse to buy a new light. I’ve always wanted a right-angle/headlamp, and the TIR optic is just fabulous.

Streamlight ProTac HL - SureFire P2X Fury - Fenix PD35 v2.0 - Fenix PD25 - Sunwayman V11R XML2 6A3 mod - Olight Warrior X Pro - Skilhunt H04

Pavlo
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Try to compare to similar colour temperatures on something red and swap back and forth between 70 CRI and 90 CRI.
On other colours further away from red on the colour spectrum, the perceivable difference is minimal.

The R9 value for red colour rendering is not included in the traditional CRI index. So 90 CRI LED’s will have varying R9 values.
They are usually in the 30-50 CRI for R9. The SST20 and Nichia 219b 9080 or E21A 9080’s have minimum of 80 CRI in R9. Comparing those to a 70 CRI flashlight with R9 value of 0 is quite noticeable in my experience.

The LH351D is not as rich in colours to the SST20, but a nice compromise of power and CRI. Then again, a 5000K LH351D will be completely different to a 4000K SST20 due to colour temperature alone.

pinkpanda3310
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I’m with you eicca. Makes little difference to me but I know there are some who want nothing less than high cri in their collection. Each to their own I guess. I like aux lights but that’s not everyone’s cup of tea either.

 

Quadrupel
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Nice to have hi-cri for floodlights, headlamps, but for thrower its useless.

Rayoui
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I disagree; I have assembled many small throwers (C8, D80v2, and similar) with different CCTs and CRI for nighttime trail hikes. I find that high CRI significantly improves the color and contrast of objects, particularly earthy tones like the browns of tree bark or dried foliage. With low CRI emitters, all of these objects appear as various desaturated shades of gray. I find that having high CRI emitters in these medium-range throwers makes the whole experience much more enjoyable.

The saturation of greens seem to be affected by tint more than CRI.

My current go-to trail lights are a D80v2 with sliced 4000K LH351D and C8 with 219b sw40.

Firelight2
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Initially, I felt the same way as the original poster. High-CRI seems so subtle. Color Temp, Tint, Intensity and Output all seemed more important.

Now that I’ve gotten used to it, the beautiful tint of 4000K high CRI SST20 FA2 makes 4000K XPL HI look rather crappy. The difference is pretty noticeable. Especially when looking at anything with red or brown in it.

bansuri
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You might think that the forum is filled with 3rd shift produce or art inspectors, (and it might be!), but hobbyists just like to push the boundaries.
A decent tint and a nice beam profile is all you need most of the time if you just want to see the Lego on the floor before you step on it. With the emitters of yesteryear you might not be able to tell what color it was because of the extreme blue or angry purple output but things are better now.
If you’re using it for nighttime communications wiring with every color of the rainbow twisted pairs then HCRI might give you an advantage.

No matter how you use it; have fun with your new headlamp!

Agro
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Rayoui wrote:
I disagree; I have assembled many small throwers (C8, D80v2, and similar) with different CCTs and CRI for nighttime trail hikes. I find that high CRI significantly improves the color and contrast of objects, particularly earthy tones like the browns of tree bark or dried foliage. With low CRI emitters, all of these objects appear as various desaturated shades of gray. I find that having high CRI emitters in these medium-range throwers makes the whole experience much more enjoyable.

The saturation of greens seem to be affected by tint more than CRI.

My current go-to trail lights are a D80v2 with sliced 4000K LH351D and C8 with 219b sw40.


Not only more enjoyable, it’s just easier to tell a grey rock from a brown leaf than a grey rock from a grey leaf.
That’s not a major difference often but I’ve had a hike where I found it really hard to walk by a low CRI light.
duramax
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I recently converted a 219b triple to a XHP50.2 3V – it is a huge difference. Once your eyes get used to high-CRI they will notice the change.
On throwers I notice it less, but only because I don’t use them outside. I just point them at the sky or play around with them, if I’d use them on a trail or in the forest, I would see it too.

Lightbringer
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It’s the same like listening to high(er) fidelity audio. Still as a n00b and with a relatively “tin ear”, you might not notice any difference at first, but once you acclimate to it, going back to lo-fi sounds like crap.

Ymmv.

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pinkpanda3310
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Lightbringer wrote:
It’s the same like listening to high(er) fidelity audio. Still as a n00b and with a relatively “tin ear”, you might not notice any difference at first, but once you acclimate to it, going back to lo-fi sounds like crap.

Ymmv.


That makes sense having it explained that way. Maybe I’m just too slow at picking up on the trend.

 

Dalamar
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LH351D has very bad R9, of course it doesn’t look much better. It’s a crap emitter imo. The only high CRI emitters worth using will have 80+ R9. So, SST20/E21A/219b, and much more superior emitters like Sunlike, Thrive, Optisolis, etc.
Even Sunlike make my skin the wrong color – cri ratings are misleading -> you need to look at the spectrum. All LEDs have a gradual cutoff at 650+nm and hardly any near IR

CRI is pretty subtle anyway, until you’re looking at natural things like wood or birds. Much harder to tell with man made things
ngl, the 70 cri emitters in GT94 give me a headache, colors are very wrong, even with a wall of light it’s harder to quickly determine what I’m looking at, but this is actually more a problem with cool cct -> they should not exist imo

I only like high CRI. Collection:

Fireflies NOV-MU 21 4500k E21A

Fireflies ROT66 219B SW45 D220

Fireflies E07 Copper 219B SW45k? (odd/higher lumen bin with lower r9 and higher cct?)

Fireflies E07 219B SW45k

Fireflies E07x Pro sst20 FA4 4000k (mail)

 

Varmint removal:

Convoy M21A C8 ver SST20 4000k (5a)

Convoy S2+ SST20 4000k  FB4 (3200ma)

Memes:

BLF GT94

Emisar D18 660nm SST20 (mail)

 

 

CRI test dump https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kcl_uOhgfpR4RSsa8F4b-UUVP9mkL6Cr...

Omega_17
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Lightbringer wrote:
It’s the same like listening to high(er) fidelity audio. Still as a n00b and with a relatively “tin ear”, you might not notice any difference at first, but once you acclimate to it, going back to lo-fi sounds like crap.

Ymmv.

A little off-topic but if you do a double blind-test of the same track from the same recording you will find that you can’t tell the difference and its only an illusion like almost anything in hifi (apart from good speakers). Many hi-resolution tracks sound better but this is because of a better mastering so they can sell the illusion, also the brain will trick you just because it should be better.

mitsuki08
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It’s all a matter of preference in the end. Maybe the longer you use it the more you’ll notice the subtleties? You see high CRI all the time from sunlight so your eyes might just be used to it a bit unconsciously.

ShyOne
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eicca wrote:
…… I don’t really see much difference with the high-CRILD351D emitter compared to all my other lights (Fenix, Olight, etc) and whatever ~70 CRI emitters they use. Colors look a hair more dull in the other beams, but it’s not quite the drastic difference I was expecting……
pinkpanda3310 wrote:
I’m with you eicca. Makes little difference to me but I know there are some who want nothing less than high cri in their collection. Each to their own I guess. I like aux lights but that’s not everyone’s cup of tea either.

bansuri wrote:
You might think that the forum is filled with 3rd shift produce or art inspectors, (and it might be!), but hobbyists just like to push the boundaries.
A decent tint and a nice beam profile is all you need most of the time if you just want to see the Lego on the floor before you step on it. With the emitters of yesteryear you might not be able to tell what color it was because of the extreme blue or angry purple output but things are better now.
If you’re using it for nighttime communications wiring with every color of the rainbow twisted pairs then HCRI might give you an advantage.

No matter how you use it; have fun with your new headlamp!

Nothing wrong with High CRI at all, I have several High CRI lights.
But that being said, it is just not the be all end all it is cracked up to be “as far as I am concerned”.

Sure, as was mentioned; in some situations High CRI may give an advantage in color recognition. But honestly, in real life; I rarely encounter those situations.
As mentioned above, I am more concerned with tint & beam profile. To each their own. Wink

Rockenrooster
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Omega_17 wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
It’s the same like listening to high(er) fidelity audio. Still as a n00b and with a relatively “tin ear”, you might not notice any difference at first, but once you acclimate to it, going back to lo-fi sounds like crap.

Ymmv.

A little off-topic but if you do a double blind-test of the same track from the same recording you will find that you can’t tell the difference and its only an illusion like almost anything in hifi (apart from good speakers). Many hi-resolution tracks sound better but this is because of a better mastering so they can sell the illusion, also the brain will trick you just because it should be better.

I think its more of a combination of the sound setup. Quality of the speakers. Sure, party speakers can get really loud, but they sound like garbage compared to studio monitors. Even a cheap garbage tier 2.1 setup sounds much better than built in TV speakers nowadays. Also its almost impossible to discern 256Kbit MP3 from Flac on most music on good sound setups.

Party/Outdoor Speakers = High output but low sound quality (Low CRI high output LEDs)
Studio monitors = Output not as high but much better sound quality (High CRI LEDs)

I’d much rather have studio monitors for listening to music.

jon_slider
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compare xpg2 and 4000k 219b.. Chicken ala CRI:

otoh, Low CRI, on the left, makes green things look nice and greener:

WTB Novatac Pocket Clip

Dalamar
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jon_slider wrote:

otoh, Low CRI, on the left, makes green things look nice and greener:
!https://i.imgur.com/juuscjS.jpg!


That oversaturated skin tone is why I have a love/hate relationship with 219b… 103 rg Sad

Sunlike much nicer, good sst20 bins too

I only like high CRI. Collection:

Fireflies NOV-MU 21 4500k E21A

Fireflies ROT66 219B SW45 D220

Fireflies E07 Copper 219B SW45k? (odd/higher lumen bin with lower r9 and higher cct?)

Fireflies E07 219B SW45k

Fireflies E07x Pro sst20 FA4 4000k (mail)

 

Varmint removal:

Convoy M21A C8 ver SST20 4000k (5a)

Convoy S2+ SST20 4000k  FB4 (3200ma)

Memes:

BLF GT94

Emisar D18 660nm SST20 (mail)

 

 

CRI test dump https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kcl_uOhgfpR4RSsa8F4b-UUVP9mkL6Cr...

jon_slider
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Dalamar wrote:
That oversaturated skin tone is why I have a love/hate relationship with 219b…
the LH351d is a popular alternative
it does not have the sw45k signature hyper pink feature/bug

eicca wrote:
I don’t really see much difference with the high-CRI LD351D emitter compared to all my other lights (Fenix, Olight, etc) and whatever ~70 CRI emitters they use
glad you dont find them too green… Beer

WTB Novatac Pocket Clip

BurningPlayd0h
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Someone should do a poll/survey comparing colorblind vs not people and whether 70 vs 90 CRI is perceptibly very different.

For me, it’s such a huge difference. Even before owning any neutral white LED flashlights – let alone 90+ CRI! – I hated the color quality. Reminds me of the worst florescent lighting I’ve seen, and really felt like it “blended” the colors of things together, making it harder to distinguish different things of even fairly different color.

Dalamar
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jon_slider wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
That oversaturated skin tone is why I have a love/hate relationship with 219b…
the LH351d is a popular alternative it does not have the sw45k signature hyper pink feature/bug

The only comparable I have seen is high voltage Thrive/ Optisolis/Sunlike, and sst20 FA4 which is lower CCT and still +duv therefore not in the same class, nevermind the aforemention high voltage issues

Lh351d has too awful r9 to be in same class. I would argue e21a is better, but is still oversaturated a little

I only like high CRI. Collection:

Fireflies NOV-MU 21 4500k E21A

Fireflies ROT66 219B SW45 D220

Fireflies E07 Copper 219B SW45k? (odd/higher lumen bin with lower r9 and higher cct?)

Fireflies E07 219B SW45k

Fireflies E07x Pro sst20 FA4 4000k (mail)

 

Varmint removal:

Convoy M21A C8 ver SST20 4000k (5a)

Convoy S2+ SST20 4000k  FB4 (3200ma)

Memes:

BLF GT94

Emisar D18 660nm SST20 (mail)

 

 

CRI test dump https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kcl_uOhgfpR4RSsa8F4b-UUVP9mkL6Cr...

BurningPlayd0h
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Dalamar wrote:
and still +duv

That’s kind of the point though? It’s the very low duv of the “k” binned 219Bs that causes that skewed color rendition/perception. You can always fine-tune that with -green filters w/other emitters anyway (and still be close to 219B in lm/W). Optisolis definitely doesn’t have a duv anywhere near as low, because it’s meant to most closely match a blackbody radiator.

SST-20 and LH351D are nice because you can slap them into just about any light, with any (3V) driver and just let it rip. E21A needs proper board and has tint shift without frosted optics (and donut-hole in quadtrix setup w/o frosted) and 219B still requires limited drive current.

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Lightbringer wrote:
It’s the same like listening to high(er) fidelity audio. Still as a n00b and with a relatively “tin ear”, you might not notice any difference at first, but once you acclimate to it, going back to lo-fi sounds like crap.

Ymmv.

Although I do see your point, it’s a known fact that it’s virtually impossible to tell the difference between a $5000 sound system and a $50,000 sound system. The people that spend $50K like knowing their specs are hard to beat but the human ear really cannot tell the difference.

I laugh when I read reviews of a turntable that floats on a cushion of air, has a 50lb platter, and cost as much as a house. Then the person that buys it claims Dark side of the moon sounds incredible on it.

richbuff
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zoulas wrote:
... ... ...claims Dark side of the moon sounds incredible on it.
Dark Side of the Moon sounds best when it is playing in my head. But it is not me playing it in my head, it is someone in my head but it's not me.

 

CRI? As long as the ting is not grey, I am happy.

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eicca
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Makes sense that my eyes aren’t trained to see it. On the flip side, I’m a trained musician and HQ audio does make a difference for me. Maybe not in a specifically describable way, but CD-quality and above just feels smoother on my ears.

I still like the light quite a lot and it has more value to me than just CRI.

Streamlight ProTac HL - SureFire P2X Fury - Fenix PD35 v2.0 - Fenix PD25 - Sunwayman V11R XML2 6A3 mod - Olight Warrior X Pro - Skilhunt H04

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I found this helpful. ✅

https://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1314170#comment-1314170

ToyKeeper wrote:
I have generally found that emitter characteristics work like a dart board. Here’s how the concepts map:
  • Color temperature is which concentric ring the dart lands in. The center is neutral white, and the outer rings are increasingly warm or cool.
  • Tint is the angle of rotation, like whether it hits at 2-o’clock or 7 o’clock. Some tints look better than others.
  • CRI is how close the dart is to the center of the cell it landed in. It certainly helps, but not generally as much as the other factors.

ShyOne
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I found this extremely interesting. ✅✅

https://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1314166#comment-1314166

ToyKeeper wrote:
FWIW, here are beam shots of a few different lights ranging from 65 CRI to 92 CRI, including one which is wide-spectrum. No post-processing has been applied, except for the camera’s auto-white-balance mode to minimize color temperature differences and simulate how they look in person.

Without looking at the file names, can you sort them in order of lowest to highest CRI?

A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:

… and here’s one which theoretically has 100 CRI since it’s an incandescent light. However, its 2700K tint makes everything look yellow. Here’s how it looks in person for me:
H:

Answers… Don’t cheat. Wink

https://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1314331#comment-1314331

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eicca wrote:
Makes sense that my eyes aren’t trained to see it. On the flip side, I’m a trained musician and HQ audio does make a difference for me. Maybe not in a specifically describable way, but CD-quality and above just feels smoother on my ears.

We all noticed the difference when the CD was invented I believe. Friends of the turn-table argued that its specific sound was more pleasant, not necessarily more natural. Not sure if we all heard by how much the sound was degraded when mp3 players came out. I did immediately, and I still find mp3 terrible.

You had a difficult start into HCRI with the Samsung LH351D. I don’t like their tints down to maybe 2700K, where it is more yellowish than greenish. But I guarantee you’ll be able to identify a 219B sw45k light. I see it the other way round as has been described here: It is an eye opener after you were exposed to Cree lighting. It’s like switching from TV tube to HD LCD panel.

Smile, you cannot kill them all.

pinkpanda3310
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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
Someone should do a poll/survey comparing colorblind vs not people and whether 70 vs 90 CRI is perceptibly very different.

For me, it’s such a huge difference. Even before owning any neutral white LED flashlights – let alone 90+ CRI! – I hated the color quality. Reminds me of the worst florescent lighting I’ve seen, and really felt like it “blended” the colors of things together, making it harder to distinguish different things of even fairly different color.

We can kinda guess the results of the poll but I’d be half interested in seeing it. I only have very mild colour blindness (a little of green and yellow) but it probably explains my low interest in high cri. Sure I see a difference when comparing low and high cri but I’m more of a practical type where any light is better than no light.

 

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I often shop by “high CRI”. Even if it is missing some of the red spectrum or it isn’t perfect, I’m more likely to find lights that look nice to my eyes in that category. That said, a light done well is good thing.

Now that we are getting into summer, I’ve been able to find some nice wooded spots with pretty leaves, different bark tones, little flowers or fruits, etc. Switching back and forth between SST-20 at 2700K, LH351D at 3500K, Nichia 219C at 4000K, and XHP50.2 at both 3000K and 4000K; they all look decent. I don’t know that one blows the others away. They all look a little different, with the biggest differences being at the extremes of that spread. Of course, the differences are also more noticeable when switching back and forth or shining side by side.

Going for regular nature walks at night, I tend to enjoy just grabbing whatever I feel like taking. It adds to the experience. There are only a few quirks I’ve noticed. Really warm lights seem to look best when the world is green. As the world gets more brown and tan, I don’t like how things look with the 3000K and 2700K lights mentioned above. I’ve also found that 4000K looks great in concert with strong moonlight. I often reach for my Nichia 219C lights when the moon is shining.

wle
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sometimes the CRI is inflated

you may have been expecting warm white, which is more yellow than actual balanced CRI

i personally don;t care about going warmer or higher CRI than ‘neutral white’

because
a. color at night, what does it matter? and
b. anything that is less blue, is also less efficient

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