Li-Ion for beginners

And don't beat yourself up so badly about school or learning...seriously, those aren't indicators of your actual abilities! It's a little harder today maybe without college degrees and such but there are PLENTY of people who start out adult life in the same way(s) and go on to be happy and successful one way or another. Some people don't settle into their groove until they're in their 40s or 50s. And the yardstick by which society tends to measure "success" isn't always very accurate or fair, anyway...that's the truth.

Also...your now-flickering light. I think I said this in another comment here, but that tells you something got knocked out of whack with the impact, so somewhere in there electricity is not getting solid connection. There's no way to say what it is exactly without digging into the nitty gritty and trying to diagnose it. It could be as simple as needing to tighten a retaining ring in the head or tail, or it could be a broken solder joint or some other thing. Most of our lights are not "potted", which is when they cover the electronics and fill up space with rubber goop (which has advantages - like impact protection - and disadvantages), so harsh impacts tend to have consequences beyond just dinging up the aluminum housing...it's a crap shoot after a good drop. Disappointing but nothing to worry about with safety.

Want to learn more about batteries, good brands, how they work, and what NOT to do? Start watching and reading everything Mooch puts out. Ive been a patreon for a bit, best $1 a month i spend. HKJ here on BLF is Awesome too!

18650 battery dissection & explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3-V00nhtpE

Yes, but there was a time where you didn't understand the risks of those things, either...so you learned, just as you are now with something different. It's all totally normal...and prudent, which is a good thing that you're showing here.

Really the risks are pretty small, but they aren't zero, and we're dealing with more packed energy than an alkaline or a watch battery, so respect and caution is good but I think as more of all these particulars sink in for you, you'll find that there's no reason to be scared. Don't go putting a cell in a vise or driving nails through them, and if you ever get a light that uses more than one cell, do observe the minor cautions there about discharge limits and not mixing cell types and whatnot, but overall with normal use and care, no worries. And a lot of our best-practice rules with cells have as much to do with getting the most life/most power from them, too, not just any inherent risks.

Dropping isn't usually unsafe at all, just the risk of making the light not work. With most lights the host provides more than enough protection for the cells and unless it's a really hard impact directly on one end the spring(s) are usually enough to cushion the cells from taking damage that way although it's possible that they could get dented or the driver in the head could get cracked/damaged in some way. With the low voltages we deal with here, flickering electronics aren't really a safety issue but I suppose with some designs there would be the potential for a short to cause unregulated current to flow...which would mean heat output...not so good for pockets or inside of backpacks or possibly the electric components with high powered lights. Like with some recent ones people had buttons stick in the on position or poorly made LED connecting wires that let the light run free...not from a drop but the same results essentially.

Now...if you drop a battery and it gets damaged from the impact, then some caution is prudent. The metal cans they are made from are quite thin, so they're easy to dent, and if that dent is deep enough it can push together the layers (jelly roll) inside and possibly cause a short, which would make the cell heat up, probably vent a little gas from the positive end, and hopefully not any worse (usually not any worse). In the CPF thread you linked (again, different type of battery there) he said the positive end of the battery hit hard and dented. Since that area is where + and - meet close together, there's a lot of potential for an accidental short to occur. There's a thin rubber gasket that separates the + and - in addition to the plastic wrapper on the cell that provides some insulation/separation. If the metal were crushed so much as to make the two meet, then you get a short. Or it could crush inwards and damage the CID protection foil or just separate the + end from its crimp, exposing the guts to oxygen. Again, usually a small risk/effect, but it's there. This is largely true for NiMH and NiCd cells, too, even silver oxide cells, but we just pack more punch into lithium-ion cells. So try not to drop cells and if you do, let them sit for a second before picking them up, and then inspect them for damage. Little dents are often just fine (and in fact, some lights will dent the ends of cells just from normal use if they're just a tad too long for its design). If the wrapper got torn, it's easy and smart to change that and you can buy wrappers super cheap, just takes a couple minutes to do that. If the cell starts to get warm or hot after a drop, chuck it outdoors onto concrete or something, just in case, but you're not usually going to see that. Again, if a light is dropped then the cell(s) inside are normally not at risk.

The everyday products you mention still have risk, too, of course. I'm sure you've seen many news stories over the years of laptops or scooters or juice packs erupting in flame or melting the devices. Most of those these days are a different lithium type but there are still several. Basically it's the same things happening where impact may cause a short...although shoddy electrical designs cause a lot of that as well, and even devices with built in protection circuits of varying types are not totally immune from risks...the combination of engineering and protections just minimize them to where hopefully it's just accident/abuse that causes problems.

For me, long ago I just adopted a policy of caution and observation - respect - for anything battery powered. I once pried open a tiny LR44 silver oxide watch battery just to see what was in there. Black dirt, basically...not so exciting. I put it in the trash can and moments later was headed out the front door to go do something. I smelled something...smelled like burning paper...and I'll be damned but the little opened battery in the trash can had gotten so hot with exposure to oxygen that it began to burn the paper towel that it was wrapped in! Glad I caught that before I left. Avoidable? Totally. Between that and some oopses while disassembling lithium battery packs and the many many stories of battery accidents over the years, I just pay attention now in how I handle them, stay present when recharging them, etc, etc. It's easy and while maybe not necessary or sometimes a slight hassle, it's prudent just in case. No fear, just a healthy respect (although I probably should have been afraid in the past, seeing as though I acted pretty boldly at times....). :)



There's no oozy sludge in most batteries but the fill in watch batteries and lithium primaries is kind of a moist dirt consistency sorta, not as thick or homogeneous as peanut butter at all. Li-ion is basically a long strip of foil "painted" with the chemical mixture and then rolled up. The chems are on one side of the foil and the other side has an insulating material to prevent direct contact/shorting when it's rolled up. The foil is very thin, as is the "paint", and often two-sided with copper and tin on opposing sides (or some other metal(s) anyway). It's dry and some of it may flake off or you can scratch it away into powder/flakes. I don't know if it could burn skin if you were to leave it in contact...normal handling it doesn't, but it's also just wise not to handle it directly...implements or gloves, much smarter. It's been a very long time since I undid a NiMh cell and I can't even remember exactly but I think it was the same...maybe more moisture. HKJ did a teardown on a cheapie li-ion cell long ago...cut away the top part of the can, shorted and heated it up, then proceeded. lol. It's on his site somewhere...and surely there are a zillion videos on youtube of people doing it (not just the nail-driving and hammer-smashing ones).

Venting only happens when something goes really wrong, like serious physical damage to the cell or a direct shortcircuit, just dropping a good quality cell shouldn’t cause it to vent unless it’s from a tenth floor or something like that.

CRC - there has been a lot of useful info in this thread for you, but my 2 cents as someone who was VERY new and uneducated about this hobby only last year -

Overall - the way i learned and see others learning here is to follow this process (when in doubt):

  1. find a light you want (i.e. KR4)
  2. start a thread on BLF asking any info about it you dont understand (batteries, function, reputation, etc)
  3. mention you're new and just want some info
  4. wait for responses

I think this process works best because you are only learning what you NEED TO KNOW. and after awhile, your cumulative knowledge will be much more than you ever expected. I see members all the time starting threads just to ask a question, I don't know how its taken by the community - but i think its smart. if you cannot find your answer by searching, and feel overwhelmed by searching, just cut right to the chase and ask in a new thread.

Noctigon KR4

-I have a KR4, its one of my most carried lights, i drop it ALL THE TIME, no problems in my experience. it sits next to my head on my nightstand too.

-Use these batteries with it: https://www.18650batterystore.com/collections/molicel-18650-batteries/products/molicel-p26a and these https://www.18650batterystore.com/collections/18350-batteries/products/epoch-18350-battery-1100mah

-they're cheap, and reputable, and can handle the KR4. I use them both.

-Buy your batteries here : https://www.18650batterystore.com/ or here: https://liionwholesale.com/ and i think many of us could agree you will never get a junk battery. feel safe about that. thats half the problem, buying junk batteries. and if either of these places started to sell junk, you would here about it on BLF first. (There are other places to buy them, but i'm trying to make it straight forward).

-Buy a good charger, charge your batteries with it. this one is good: https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/xtar-vc4s

-There are many other good chargers, but i'm making this straightforward, and i think many here would agree about the charger.

It should only vent when there is pressure built up inside the sealed cell. That of course comes from heat, one way or another, or crushing physical force. Most cells and any that are approved for import into the US have a current interrupting device (CID) built into the top end of the cell...it's basically like a foil cover that ruptures (hopefully) when it should to prevent further heat/pressure/current flow. It's hard to see it and not so obvious if you don't know it's in there, but with most cells you can peer into the cutouts in the positive cap and see it down there. This is also why you shouldn't poke things into those cutouts or attempt to pry up/repair a positive end that has been dented. We aren't getting overly toxic fumes here like with those primaries or cells that are super heated, etc., but if a cell ever vents from an accidental short or damage, you may hear a little "poof" if you're close to it and listening, maybe catch a little odor. Again, don't huff it, but it's not the same as that other thread and not a huge concern. By the way, this kind of thing is why it's always a bad idea to carry extra cells in a pocket with keys or other conductive things, or pokey things, even if the cell is in one of those little silicone stretchy covers (which are otherwise handy but less protective than a plastic box or something).

This is the "unseen" protective device in a cell...and I guess, still, some ultra cheap suspect crappy cells don't incorporate it, but most do, and all the big makers do. Just a standard part of their construction. When you buy a "protected" battery, that's different - that is additional stuff added on to the outside of the cell (beneath the wrapper) with teeny electronics that cut the circuit based on voltage levels or heat.

You're welcome...don't give up, you're halfway there already. :)

Speaking of CRC, did anyone play River City Ransom (RCR) on the original Nintendo?

It was my favorite co-op 2-player game on the system.

No...did play CCR once, though...upon a time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWijx_AgPiA

Hey, better for you to be hot than, say, your batteries. :)

Anyway, CRC, to answer the title question: it is because learning as much stuff as possible is fun and feels quite nice.

you're welcome, and if you have additional questions about anything at all with batteries, lights or reputable places to get them just shoot me a pm anytime.

So I am not very knowledgeable about how drivers work, but basically the 5amp constant current means that the driver in the kr4 will regulate the output up to 5 amps, and after that it is run in a direct drive mode (meaning that whatever battery power you have, minus the resistance of things like wires,etc. Will go straight to the leds).

the best way I can describe the 5amp constant currrnt part is - the driver is made with resistors in it that limit the power that is allowed to go from your battery through the driver to your leds, in the amount of 5 amps.

also, from what I understand is that a "constant current driver" (like the kr4) is not as sophisticated or well engineered as a buck driver or a boost driver, because those also have other capabilities to preserve battery life and give the light better "efficiency". Like I said, I am understanding this more as time goes on but this is the extent of my layman's knowledge, I know that the constant current driver Hank offers isn't the most efficient and best driver out there, but it is a balance of his design, intent (high output, some driver regulation), options (awesome leds and body material like titanium) that makes Noctigon and Emsiar so appealing. It's the every persons light. A great combo of components for an affordable price.

so yes, some people will completely bash any driver that is not a buck driver or boost driver made with boutique parts and massaged into existence by an electrical engineer and pixie dust, but when it's all said and done it's about balancing your expectations, what you truly want and need, and if you care about changing batteries lol. That's an understatement but how I feel about it sometimes. I own lights with buck drivers, boost driver, direct drivers (the cheaper ones) and I love them all.

over time you will find what you like, and what you dislike. I'd say try different things first. Signing off now be black later for more!

I just saw I didn't answer your second question - 6 amps is not necessarily very powerful, but it's all in perspective. A lot of convoys drivers are 6amp max drivers because for single emitter flashlights it is a good general max output to be safe for the emitter. But for a multimemitter light like the kr4 (5amps) is a good everyday max out out, basically covers you up to turbo. Your marker being a 10amp max power sounds high? Iirc that is a single emitter osram led light, so 10amps sounds like it would be high, for a single emitter light with an osram led. Because most osram leds are more comfortable around 5amps, with only the CULPM1 (the largest white flat they make) being able to maintain about 8amps comfortably.

Don't worry, someone who understands it much more than I do would have probably explained it much better. You will see many examples people on here explaining things very well and it will be easier to understand than my ramblings.

one thing I wanted to clarify too- when I was describing the buck and boost drivers some are so passionate about - there is another positive aspect to those drivers I left out, probably the most important one- it is that they are much more efficient & consistent in their output. I only mentioned them being more efficient in battery life, but their efficiency in output and consistent output is what I assume is the biggest reason many people like those drivers so much. And it is important. I kindve taking a dig at it, but there are clear benefits to buck/boost drivers. But they are not the end all be all for all of us. That's all. :)

abaolutley not! I don't even know if I REALLY understand it lol!. You are good my friend. Just go over Anduril and it's basic operations and you will be fine! Like literally just the operations to ramp up/down, turn on /off, and turbo!

all is good. I would wager that more than half the people that own a kr4 don't understand the constant current aspect of the driver, thoroughly. I could be wrong, but you are not alone!

perfect! We want to hear about it when you get it in!

High drain is relative, an 18650 would need a higher CDR to be called ‘high drain’ than an 18350 or an 14500. I would need to look at a review to be sure but the MC13 shouldn’t be using more than 5 to 6A in turbo as that’s approximately the current which archives peak output for that LED, using more would just damage the LED for no gain. The driver should be doing the current limiting in that flashlight so you shouldn’t be worried about using a more powerful cell. The number of manufacturers of good 18350 cells is small so there is a high chance they are the same cell underneath.

It would be better if manufacturers used actual CDR requirements but I guess most people dislike numbers so they use imprecise words like ‘high drain’ rather than sounding too technical and losing sales. Also if turbo required 10A but the cell only has 8A CDR it shouldn’t explode, it will perform worse and heat more than expected but an explosion would require a larger difference and the failure of the safety features. As most ratings, the CDR has a safety margin, but that doesn’t mean you should exceed it on purpose.

That Xtar 2 bay charger is definitely a good charger, i particularly like its charging speed (2amp x 1 cell, 1amp x2 cells). I also have come to trust Xtar chargers for reliability. The batteries are certainly good for the KR4, and for the 18350 - it will work for the manker definitely. The 18650 (Molicel, P26a) is great for the KR4, but there are probably better options for the Manker, because you dont need over 20 amps of discharge for the manker that is running an Osram led at around 5 amps. I would say pickup this cell for your Manker https://www.18650batterystore.com/collections/sanyo-18650-batteries/products/sanyo-bl if you will be buying from 18650batterystore.com

Its a reputable cell, and a good price. and its in stock. like the previous post stated, you dont need a high amp cell for the Manker. plus you'd probably want each light to have its own cell, in case you wanted to use them at the same time :)